After perusing the Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer, I'm somewhat confused as to what the general level of technology is in Golarion. I understand the setting is intended to support a wide range of play styles, but I'm seeing a significant increase in what I would view as more Renaissance or even Victorian artwork. In the Pathfinder APs published thus far, they seemed like the exception rather than the rule and I chalked it up to artist interpretation but after reading through portions of the Gazetteer I'm thinking I was off base.
So I'm wondering, what would be the average level of technology of the nations/kingdoms of Golarion? What is the high-water mark?
I know a small portion of the setting has/will have gunpowder, but what about industry, transportation, etc.?
I'm really loving what I've seen of the APs and Golarion thus far. However, I'm a swords-n-sorcery fan and was hoping for something closer to Hyboria or Middle Ages than say, Eberron or Iron Kingdoms - basically not anything more advanced than, say the Old World of WFRP.
So far, at least, all of the iconics seem to leap straight out of a swords-n-sorcery novel, which I love. Elements of the setting seem to be significantly more advanced, however. Are these rare anomalies or commonplace examples of the setting?
Sorry for all of the references to other settings, but they seemed like the simplest comparison points to use.
If the tech level is higher than I'd like, it seems as though it would be easy enough to pare back. I'm just trying to get a better feel. I hate trying to retcon after the fact.
So far, at least, all of the iconics seem to leap straight out of a swords-n-sorcery novel, which I love. Elements of the setting seem to be significantly more advanced, however. Are these rare anomalies or commonplace examples of the setting?
I think there's a clear separation between clothing style and level of technology. The "significantly more advanced" technology seems to more of a rarity than anything else, or only in densely populated areas. But, as the Spaceman himself put it, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Who knows what those Azlants were up to before their home sunk (which I firmly believe is in the middle of the Eye of Abendego)? :P I also imagine that the death of Aroden had quite an impact on technological development, not to mention that pesky Starstone (though that was quite a few years back).
I would say that any element you feel is too advanced, dial back appropriately to how you like to run your game.
Just don't ask about the Numerian spaceship. ;)
So far, at least, all of the iconics seem to leap straight out of a swords-n-sorcery novel, which I love. Elements of the setting seem to be significantly more advanced, however. Are these rare anomalies or commonplace examples of the setting?I think there's a clear separation between clothing style and level of technology. The "significantly more advanced" technology seems to more of a rarity than anything else, or only in densely populated areas. But, as the Spaceman himself put it, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Who knows what those Azlants were up to before their home sunk (which I firmly believe is in the middle of the Eye of Abendego)? :P I also imagine that the death of Aroden had quite an impact on technological development, not to mention that pesky Starstone (though that was quite a few years back).
I would say that any element you feel is too advanced, dial back appropriately to how you like to run your game.
Just don't ask about the Numerian spaceship. ;)
True, which is why I was asking. Are they cosmetic window-dressing or indicators of the culture and technology?
Enquiring minds want to know! :)
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So far, at least, all of the iconics seem to leap straight out of a swords-n-sorcery novel, which I love. Elements of the setting seem to be significantly more advanced, however. Are these rare anomalies or commonplace examples of the setting?I think there's a clear separation between clothing style and level of technology. The "significantly more advanced" technology seems to more of a rarity than anything else, or only in densely populated areas. But, as the Spaceman himself put it, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Who knows what those Azlants were up to before their home sunk (which I firmly believe is in the middle of the Eye of Abendego)? :P I also imagine that the death of Aroden had quite an impact on technological development, not to mention that pesky Starstone (though that was quite a few years back).
I would say that any element you feel is too advanced, dial back appropriately to how you like to run your game.
Just don't ask about the Numerian spaceship. ;)
According to the south american stone carvings they were rowing about in reed canoes when the volcano erupted and the temple sank...so tech level isnt for everyone.
Creative Director
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This is sort of a more complex question than it seems, especially since much of Golarion is inspired not by medieval eras but more the anceint world. I'm talking Rome. And even further back; Babylon, Egypt. And further. Atlantis. Hyperborea. Prehistory. Depending on what you read or believe, the Atlanteans had all sorts of crazy technology.
At the other end of the scale, we've got things like pianos, big sailing ships, guillotines, printing presses, and firearms (although we haven't really done much with firearms yet...). In a lot of ways, each individual region of Golarion has it's own inferred "tech level."
Put bluntly... Golarion is not Earth. A lot of the stuff we're putting in there has more to do with establishing a mood of the fantastic as needed for each region... historical accuracy is far from our mind, but we're drawing upon many different eras of history for inspiration. Also... we understand that some of our customers prefer low-tech worlds, while others prefer high-tech worlds. Golarion, to a certain extent, can handle all of that.
One relatively safe way to think of "tech" is to think of it this way: the further south you go on the map, the more high-tech and/or high-fantasy you get. In the far north, you have stuff that's VERY low-tech and feels like Conan, while far to the south you have nations like Nex and Geb which have a LOT of magic going on (firearms are nearby as well).
In addition... when we were getting first started with Golarion, we were still finding our feet with the themes of the world. There are a few things we put into the adventures or modules that, in hindsight, we shouldn't have, but they're in there now and Golarion seems to have weathered them well enough.
You mention several times in your previous post that "elements of the setting seem more advanced." Can you point out some of these elements? I'd love to see if these anachronistic things are in fact problems or errors or by design. Keep in mind, of course, that some things (indoor plumbing, for example) that SEEM anachronistic to D&D are not. And vice-versa.
I would agree with you that a lot of the architecture seems a bit more Renaissence than Low Middle Ages.
But one thing to keep in mind when you're dealing with "Swords and Sorcery" is that Magic is probably always going to be more common than the corresponding "tech equivalent". It's probably almost always going to be easier to use magic to do something than technology.
For example, if you want to deal a lot of damage at a distance, magic bows and arrows or wands or spells are probably going to be the first choice of most of the residents of Golarion. You could make a gun or a bomb, but why bother when you have all those spells to pick from?
And frankly, there are LOTS of things you can do with D&D magic that no amount of non-SF technology can duplicate. Teleport, telekinesis, summoning, personal flight; the list is long. So I don't think there's much chance of "Tech" replacing Magic in Golarion.
I also don't think the Magic will ever go "over the top common" like Eberron. I think some of the more remote areas, that aren't so much "urban/cosmopolitan empire" type places will have a feel similar to Hyboria. Although I haven't read any of the books in many years.
EDIT: Wow, got Ninja'd 5 times while typing.
This is sort of a more complex question than it seems, especially since much of Golarion is inspired not by medieval eras but more the anceint world. I'm talking Rome. And even further back; Babylon, Egypt. And further. Atlantis. Hyperborea. Prehistory. Depending on what you read or believe, the Atlanteans had all sorts of crazy technology.
At the other end of the scale, we've got things like pianos, big sailing ships, guillotines, printing presses, and firearms (although we haven't really done much with firearms yet...). In a lot of ways, each individual region of Golarion has it's own inferred "tech level."
Put bluntly... Golarion is not Earth. A lot of the stuff we're putting in there has more to do with establishing a mood of the fantastic as needed for each region... historical accuracy is far from our mind, but we're drawing upon many different eras of history for inspiration. Also... we understand that some of our customers prefer low-tech worlds, while others prefer high-tech worlds. Golarion, to a certain extent, can handle all of that.
One relatively safe way to think of "tech" is to think of it this way: the further south you go on the map, the more high-tech and/or high-fantasy you get. In the far north, you have stuff that's VERY low-tech and feels like Conan, while far to the south you have nations like Nex and Geb which have a LOT of magic going on (firearms are nearby as well).
In addition... when we were getting first started with Golarion, we were still finding our feet with the themes of the world. There are a few things we put into the adventures or modules that, in hindsight, we shouldn't have, but they're in there now and Golarion seems to have weathered them well enough.
You mention several times in your previous post that "elements of the setting seem more advanced." Can you point out some of these elements? I'd love to see if these anachronistic things are in fact problems or errors or by design. Keep in mind, of course, that some things (indoor plumbing, for example) that...
Thanks, James.
Please don't mistake my questions for criticism. I'm loving Golarion - I just want to keep setting/campaign consistency once I kick off my Pathfinder campaign.
As for examples:
The Paddlewheel boat in W2. It's listed as a unique design and if I recall correctly utilizes magic as well as tech.
The gunpowder, guillotines, and printing presses you already mentioned.
The governments of Geb and Andoran, while great RPG fodder, certainly seem to suggest parallels to Revoution-era France and the newborn USA, which in turn suggests a higher level of technology than say Hyboria. (Granted, I'm making some big assumptions there, but hopefully you can see why I'm asking the question.)
Obviously, I only have to look at our own world to see varying levels of tech. In Golarion, however, nations that are neighbors seem as though they can have varying tech levels without influencing each other. So perhaps it's a higher tech level overall than I originally believed, or the "higher tech" elements are just jumping out at me (perhaps moreso than is really warranted).
If it's window dressing, to be raised/lowered/discarded at the GM's whim, that's ok. But I'm curious as to the desired "official" direction Paizo is trying to Golarion down. I've been down this road before where my interpretation of a setting's tech level & tone was different than my players. While it's all well and good to say "it's my game", when they're buying supplements as well, I'd just as soon avoid the disconnect if possible.
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Creative Director
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The Paddlewheel boat in W2. It's listed as a unique design and if I recall correctly utilizes magic as well as tech.
Yeah... the paddlewheel boat was sort of an experiment. We set it in the fringes of the world very much to "isolate" it in the event that we decided not to go forward with it... we've since more or less decided that we won't be doing much more with this type of magi-tech in Golarion.
The gunpowder, guillotines, and printing presses you already mentioned.
Yup; again, we haven't done much at all with guns yet, and we probably won't any time soon.
The governments of Geb and Andoran, while great RPG fodder, certainly seem to suggest parallels to Revoution-era France and the newborn USA, which in turn suggests a higher level of technology than say Hyboria. (Granted, I'm making some big assumptions there, but hopefully you can see why I'm asking the question.)
There is indeed a fair amount of revolution stuff going on... but our goals here are to explore what a Revolution-era France or newborn USA might pan out if they occurred in a D&D style land with necromancers, otyughs, and magic missiles.
To be ABSOLUTELY safe, though... you'll probably want to focus any games you run in Golarion in the northern half of the map. Something at Varisia's level, for example, or the River Kingdoms, or Ustalav, or even north of that in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings might be what you're looking for. In the end, it's a HUGE world, and we're trying to be as inclusive of the various styles of play as we can.
I think it is important to mention that one of the barriers to developing technologies in our real world civilizations was communication and education. Many, many things have been discovered, lost and rediscovered throughout our collective history (Steam power, Clockworks, Print Making, Engineering technologies, Mathematics, etc.)
here is an example of what was going on in the real world, circa 800 CE.
Among them, invention of gunpowder and advancements in printing and print making.
I would say Golarion is also a bit like a Fantasy Gamma World, with left-over magic, tech and vaults from the time of the Runelords.
Contributor
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Also keep in mind that, for better or worse, the modules have focused on the weird and exotic rather than trying to establish a typical fantasy setting baseline, so a lot of perceptions among our readers are skewed somewhat. For example, Darkmoon Vale has received a disproportionate amount attention for its level of overall importance in the setting.
Golarion should feel, for the most part, like the world presented in the PH, DMG, and MM. If you feel there's too much high-tech stuff going on, don't include it. Ultimately, it's window-dressing. For the most part.
Thanks, James and Mike, for the additional explanation.
As to magic superceding tech and the "Gamma World" factor, yeah, I can see those points, but I'd view them as secondary considerations - either a culture has the ability to produce something to a certain level of technology (or buy it from a neighbor/trading partner) or they can't. Runelord "tech" doesn't exactly impact the day-to-day technological abilities of Korvosa, for example.
Thanks again to everyone. A lot of good points to consider and it's good to know treating certain elements as window dressing won't cause me to go too far afield of setting canon.
Just don't ask about the Numerian spaceship.
Ok, I have to ask about the Numerian spaceship. :)
But one thing to keep in mind when you're dealing with "Swords and Sorcery" is that Magic is probably always going to be more common than the corresponding "tech equivalent". It's probably almost always going to be easier to use magic to do something than technology.
Oh, look. It's my hot button. o.o;
Take a good long look at the way D&D wizardry actually works: at how much effort it takes to learn, at how much magic can be used in a day, at how far the average human, given levels in wizard or sorcerer (with a starting caster stat of 10-11, don't forget) can progress in the field, and how much use a noncaster can get out of a few ranks in Use Magic Device.
Now take a look at how much training, knowledge, and effort it takes to use even an early gun. A gun which requires fairly simple metal-casting and chemistry to create, as opposed to the very large investment of rare materials and (in previous editions) XP to create a wand that can only have 50 charges ever without making a second wand from scratch.
Technology is intrinsically more accessible to the common man than D&D magic. It's a plain fact.
Also keep in mind that, for better or worse, the modules have focused on the weird and exotic rather than trying to establish a typical fantasy setting baseline, so a lot of perceptions among our readers are skewed somewhat. For example, Darkmoon Vale has received a disproportionate amount attention for its level of overall importance in the setting.
Golarion should feel, for the most part, like the world presented in the PH, DMG, and MM. If you feel there's too much high-tech stuff going on, don't include it. Ultimately, it's window-dressing. For the most part.
Does this include some of the "magitech" devices that have popped up in some of the modules? i.e. the Aeromantic Infandibulum in Crucible of Chaos and the Electro-Thaumic Generator from Seven Swords of Sin. (great names BTW) Are any of Golarion's regions even close to recapturing that sort of knowledge?
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Contributor
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Does this include some of the "magitech" devices that have popped up in some of the modules? i.e. the Aeromantic Infandibulum in Crucible of Chaos and the Electro-Thaumic Generator from Seven Swords of Sin. (great names BTW)
Yes, although those devices get short write-ups in the hardcover (they ARE part of the world, after all) their importance to Golarion has pretty much played out, at least for now. We might revisit some of those ideas in the future, but I think/hope that we're going to be turning more toward traditional D&D-esque fantasy for a little while. :)
Are any of Golarion's regions even close to recapturing that sort of knowledge?
No. There is a city-state in Garund that has developed firearms technology to a relatively advanced state and is also reknown worldwide for its engineering marvels (and gets a mention in Guide to Korvosa). It became that advanced because it's in the magic-dead Mana Wastes and had no choice but to adapt or die. So although that country has the steampunk tech to pull off electrothaumaturgy, it doesn't have access to the magic. And all the magic-rich nations around it don't care about its tech, because, well... magic.
So no, as of right now, nobody is even close to unlocking the secrets of those two forms of magitech.
Does this include some of the "magitech" devices that have popped up in some of the modules? i.e. the Aeromantic Infandibulum in Crucible of Chaos and the Electro-Thaumic Generator from Seven Swords of Sin. (great names BTW)Yes, although those devices get short write-ups in the hardcover (they ARE part of the world, after all) their importance to Golarion has pretty much played out, at least for now. We might revisit some of those ideas in the future, but I think/hope that we're going to be turning more toward traditional D&D-esque fantasy for a little while. :)
Are any of Golarion's regions even close to recapturing that sort of knowledge?No. There is a city-state in Garund that has developed firearms technology to a relatively advanced state and is also reknown worldwide for its engineering marvels (and gets a mention in Guide to Korvosa). It became that advanced because it's in the magic-dead Mana Wastes and had no choice but to adapt or die. So although that country has the steampunk tech to pull off electrothaumaturgy, it doesn't have access to the magic. And all the magic-rich nations around it don't care about its tech, because, well... magic.
So no, as of right now, nobody is even close to unlocking the secrets of those two forms of magitech.
Thanks Mike! This goes a long way to putting the magitech and more advanced elements see to date as the exception rather than the rule, which is what I was trying to gauge. Relics of lost civilizations are good story hooks - if such things become relatively "common" it definitely has an impact on the tone and style of the setting. Glad to see I wasn't too far off the mark in my original read of the setting.