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I've seen dramatic change in quite a few games I've played -- D&D since (almost) the beginning, ......., World of Darkness .........This is the only time I've wanted to walk away from a company and their game. That it's D&D, of all games, and that so many people feel the same way -- WotC should find some lesson in all this.
Thought the new rules for WoD still feels like a stortelller system, White Wolf did a much larger fluff change then WotC has done with D&D.
White Wolf literally threw out all thier fluff and started over with a new Story.
Edit: DOH!!!. that was already brought up..
Sadly, James's last post only makes me less inclined to have anything to do with Paizo anymore.
Shroomy wrote about how the lack of staff (note that includes the whole staff, not just James) presence in the threads on 4e conversion seems to indicate that Paizo doesn't really want anything to do with it, not even to offer encouragement. James then takes this as a personal critique of his time. I honestly don't really care what you spend your time on, James. If you don't like 4e, and you don't want to talk about it, then don't. But that doesn't change the fact that on the one hand, Paizo (as a company) claims to want the community to step up and support 4e, but on the other hand doesn't provide any sort of encouragement to do so.
James then goes on to emphasize that Paizo is not developing into a 4th edition company. He says that there are better choices for boards to discuss 4e, and that Paizo doesn't have to try to convince anyone to buy their products if they don't plan to use the PRPG system. While all of this may be true, how does it not feel like a slap in the face to fans who are looking forward to 4e? Let me clarify. Though they may be true facts, the act of emphasizing them seems to be an unnecessary slap in the face. There are ways of saying all of that without telling the pro-4e crowd to screw off.
James, you say that you, yourself, are not interested in "spending LOTS of time trying to convince someone who's decided to go with a competitor's product to use [your] product." But what about you (that is as a company, not an individual, as I believe Shroomy was talking about Paizo in general) spending just ANY time convincing someone of that? Isn't that what businesses do? I believe all Shroomy was saying was that Paizo ought to at least try to appeal to a wider audience. There is a big difference between "Our Pathfinder line is primarily suited for the Pathfinder RPG, but here are some rules-light products that can be used in virtually any system" and "If you decide you prefer 4th edition content, there's not much we can do about it."
The last issue I want to address is this line, about which it is my turn to be vexed:
But if you're more interested in 4th edition than 3.5 or Pathfinder, keep in mind that you're also alienating Paizo and me.
James, this is twice now that you've turned the word "alienate" around to portray yourself as the victim. While I don't doubt that you feel alienated by the 4e rules changes (the first use), I really must take exception to this second use. Let's get the producer-customer relationship correct here. If I choose to buy a product other than yours, I'm not alienating you, I'm simply choosing a different product. If you indicate to me that you don't really want my business, THAT is alienating me as a customer. It really doesn't work the other way around. It is the job of the seller to entice a buyer, not a buyer to entice a seller.
Please stop trying to portray yourself as the victim. You may be working long and hard hours, you may have made sacrifices for Pathfinder, and you may be really resentful of 4e and everything it is bringing about. But this is not a personal issue. I really do feel sorry for you on a personal level, but that doesn't change the fact that I feel that Paizo (as a company) is being disingenuous about its potential support of 4e. Please have the professional courtesy to separate your personal feelings from discussion about the company's behaviors. Your personal opinions are welcome regarding most other topics, but given your position as editor-in-chief, it doesn't seem fair to be personalizing this issue as you are.
What attracted me to Paizo in the first place a couple years ago seems to be disappearing in the recent months. My hope is that it is simply the unease a new edition brings, but if James's last post is any indication, I'm starting to feel much less welcome here.
A bunch of really insightful stuff.
I just wanted to add that. Everything you said is exactly how I feel, and worded much better than I could. :)
CEO
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Said a bunch of stuff about 4e and Paizo.
Hey Shroomy:
I can understand where you are coming from. But here is the problem from Paizo's point of view. We haven't seen the GSL yet. We haven't seen the 4th edition rules yet. I have told my employees that I don't want them speculating and rumor-monging about 4th edition until we have had a chance to see the GSL and the actual rules. It doesn't look like that will happen until June 6th.
It just doesn't seem very professional to debate or talk about the 4th edition rules until we have seen them in their totality. I mean, how can you debate the multiclassing rules unless you know how they are going to fit into the system as a whole? I would rather wait it out until we can read through the final rules and know what Paizo can and can't do under the GSL before unleasing my employees into the fray. This may come across as indifference, but really it is trying to maintain our professional objectiveness until we have seen the final product.
We are actually excited to see what our fans do in converting our 3.5 edition products into 4th edition. But again, how can you even do that when the rules haven't been released yet? What is the point of debating changes to the Adventure Paths when you don't even know the rules you will be converting to? I am guessing that Paizo staff members will have more to say on the subject once June 6th is passed and we have had a chance to digest the new rules system. Until then, I would rather let the fans debate things on their own. I'd rather have Paizo employees talk about things that we are fully knowledgeable about.
I hope this puts your mind at ease and lets you understand why official Paizo employees are absent from the discussions. Give us a chance to read the new rules and the GSL and I bet there will be much more participation. But not until after June 6th.
-Lisa
We are actually excited to see what our fans do in converting our 3.5 edition products into 4th edition.
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I hope this puts your mind at ease and lets you understand why official Paizo employees are absent from the discussions. Give us a chance to read the new rules and the GSL and I bet there will be much more participation. But not until after June 6th.
Thank you, Lisa. My sincere hope is that the excitement you mention here actually does show itself in the upcoming months. I realize the situation Paizo is in, and I realize that given a couple months, things may seem much different. I really thank you for expressing these things in a respectful and considerate way, rather than in a way that seems to say a subsection of Paizo fans are not wanted.
Though the post was not explicitly directed at me, it indeed puts my mind at ease.
I have told my employees that I don't want them speculating and rumor-monging about 4th edition until we have had a chance to see the GSL and the actual rules.
So... Your employees can speculate and rumor-monger after they see the rules and GSL? :-P
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CEO
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We are actually excited to see what our fans do in converting our 3.5 edition products into 4th edition.
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I hope this puts your mind at ease and lets you understand why official Paizo employees are absent from the discussions. Give us a chance to read the new rules and the GSL and I bet there will be much more participation. But not until after June 6th.Thank you, Lisa. My sincere hope is that the excitement you mention here actually does show itself in the upcoming months. I realize the situation Paizo is in, and I realize that given a couple months, things may seem much different. I really thank you for expressing these things in a respectful and considerate way, rather than in a way that seems to say a subsection of Paizo fans are not wanted.
Though the post was not explicitly directed at me, it indeed puts my mind at ease.
Paolo:
Glad to be of service. :) We really want to support all fans of all games here on paizo.com. Unfortunately, we can't all be experts on all games, nor can we all be gonzo excited about all games. So we'll see what happens once 4e is released and we have had a chance to take a look at it. Until then, we have plenty else to keep us busy. :)
-Lisa
And if you walk into an italian restaurant and demand to know what they are going to do about the fact that you like mexican food better, what are they supposed to do? They aren't going to suddenly add mexican dishes, I can tell you that.
Your analogy does not directly apply. No one is demanding they do anything. They themselves expressed the possibility of producing 4e products. Moreover, your analogy has nothing to do with my point about alienation and the producer-customer relationship (which you quoted). If I like Mexican food, it is still the Italian restaurant's job to try to get me to buy their products. They don't have to add Mexican dishes, but if they want my business, they sure better consider the fact that I like Mexican better, and proceed forward with that in mind.
James told you what he thinks. Namely, that supporting 4e isn't important to Paizo at the moment because 1) it doesn't appeal to many of the staff (and its not just James who has said so) 2) It isn't even released yet 3) there is a lot of legal uncertainty about what they could do.
James said none of these things in this thread, except for perhaps #2. Even then, it is not anything I or anyone else disputed.
He's not trying to drive you away, but if you come here and say "hey, we don't like the stuff you are making, why don't you make something else?" and then get offended because he said "no" that's on you.
I'm doing no such thing. As I mentioned before, Paizo opened the door to the idea of them producing 4e material. All we've done here is talk about what we'd like that to look like if and when it should happen.
Wizards is the one splitting the community with its radical game change and its legal maneuverings. You can't reasonably expect Paizo to do anything about 4e when they don't have the rules and don't know what their legal situation with it is.
Aside from the fact that there are plenty of people who don't see the changes as very radical, once again no one is expecting Paizo to commit to anything at this moment. As I said before, they opened the door to the idea and we are describing how we would like it to happen if it does.
Actually, has anyone in this thread made any serious suggestions about the products that they'd like to see from Paizo that isn't a breach of the GSL? (namely, the no cross branding clause)?
Since when have facts and logic had any place whatsoever in any online discussion about 4e and the GSL?
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I for one will be running a 4E CotCT game and will be turning to Paizo's boards for advice while doing it. I firmly believe that there is no better online community for such discussions. I will also encourage Paizo to produce 4E products by eagerly gobbling them up and begging for more. I understand Paizo's position in this and do not envy them it at all.
I simply think of the last few months as the "Late Unpleasantness."
And I make the following prediction.
Paizo will make 4E products if allowed to by the GSL, and if D&D maintains its brand strength. It is pretty hard to imagine the brand not remaining strong after this. Maybe they won't immediately produce 4E titles but they eventually will. And that is how I prefer it. Take your time and get it right. Quality over quantity and all that.
How can I say this? Because I am those like me are here to stay. I am a huge Paizo fan. And I am a egerly anticipating my copies of the 4E books.
And technically they already are producing 4E material for me. I have been beginning to anticipating conversion of the CotCT chapters for a while now.
Keep up the good work guys.
For some of us the Paizo cup will always be half full.
Tambryn Fenwise.
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As for a 4E friendly product that I would like paizo to create. How feasable to you guys think an adventure completely devoid of crunch would be. Maybe with a online resource where the fans come together and suggest which stats to give the three "orc warriors" in room 3. Some work for the DM I know.
You could still incude new items and stuff it would just be up to the DM to customize them for his game.
This could work for any number of games and or editions.
Tam
Thought the new rules for WoD still feels like a stortelller system, White Wolf did a much larger fluff change then WotC has done with D&D... White Wolf literally threw out all thier fluff and started over with a new Story.
Good point.
I was lucky enough to not be playing Vampire: the Masquerade by then. Otherwise I'd probably have been just as upset.
One more thing -- real people don't use the word 'vexing' :P
Who ever claimed I was "real people?"
As he sits in the Editorial Pit, I am reasonably certain James understands that it is not air he is breathing.
I'll take the blue pill :)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Thought the new rules for WoD still feels like a stortelller system, White Wolf did a much larger fluff change then WotC has done with D&D... White Wolf literally threw out all thier fluff and started over with a new Story.Good point.
I was lucky enough to not be playing Vampire: the Masquerade by then. Otherwise I'd probably have been just as upset.
I wasn't playing so much as collecting and reading. I got into the WoD2. I liked the mortal base, as well as the new cosmology foe W:tF but got rid of my books because Vampire was becoming WoD1 again, and I have that. I was bitter that we didn't get new Progenitor/Void Engineer/NWO/Syndicate books for Mage, but understood that Vampire was pretty much tapped out.
Back on topic. While I'm not interested in 4.x, and will be making my own tweaks to Pathfinder (skill points for example) I will likely be lurking in the 4.x boards here, and look forward to stealing ideas.
As to what necromancer games I want to see put out? I'd like to see the ToH 4.x released, as well as the class book that Clark's so keen on.
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These are, of course, my own feelings; they don't represent Paizo's stance on this touchy subject necessarily, nor should they be taken as an indication of Paizo's future plans for 3rd/4th edition content. I also reserve the right to flip-flop once I do see the 4th edition rules; if they're awesome (which they very well could be; the guys at WotC are brilliant designers, after all!), sweet! But until then, I suppose I should stay out of 4th edition threads entirely and go back to ordering art of our gods for the upcoming "Gods and Magic" book.
Aww, I don't think you should have to censor yourself. Your comments are hardly instigating a 4e riot.
People like that Paizo is so customer-friendly and opens a dialogue with its fans, but then when they state an opinion it becomes, "Don't say that, it alienates me!" You just can't win. :)
I work in news, where my opinion has to be neutral and impartial. I like coming here and seeing all the staff e-chat with the rest of us like we're all e-friends, instead of communicating through formal press releases. Please don't do that. :(
So is Necromancer going to convert the Pathfinder modules to 4e? Because that would be the best of both worlds! Golarion goodness for everyone!
Edit: I didn't see this thread had taken a turn for the worse on the second page.
Please stop trying to portray yourself as the victim.
This is why we can't have nice things.
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Paolo, what Lisa said is why I said it was a moot point. I meant until the rules are out and the players and staff of Paizo can read them and Paizo can see the GSL it is a moot point. Because it is only speculation until then. There may very well be something in the GSL that makes Paizo unwilling to agree to it, regardless of their desire to make 4e products or not. Thats all I meant, is until that stuff is out, they as a company can't make a informed decision and I didn't think they would speculate on stuff.
Based on the GSL FAQ, I would guess Necromancer couldn't put out a 4E version of Pathfinder any more than Paizo could. Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems like a pretty easy way around the "each product line much be OGL -OR- GSL, not both" restriction.
Cheers! :)
I suspect that a large part of the pressure for a new edition is financial. MtG is the top earner for Hasbro. D&D is somewhere below neopets and Mr. Potato head.
emphasis mine
Seriously?!? Is this true? That's awesome! I mean I wish roleplay was bigger, but who doesn't want a t-shirt that says "My hobby got scr*w'd by Mr. Potato Head!" or "Dragon vs. Potato Head! Round 1 !"
I'd totally wear those shirts....
;p
Peace,
tfad
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I think the Paizo folks have been pretty clear that 4E stuff on here is going to be user driven for awhile. If the users aren't driving it, that's not really something that's their fault. Jeez. :-)
As far as Paizo not "developing materials for 4E" almost all the fluff they're producing could be used. And it's very pretty fluff too.
Me, I've been waiting for the books then might dig into it more. I'm sure once it's actually out things will pick up again here because everyone will get fired up about it.
The more I read the previews the less I see 4E crunch as DnD, but as a new interesting hybrid of DnD/Miniature/TCG rules. Good or bad that's what it seems like, so will provide a new gaming experience. Plus a ton of Marketing $$$. :-)
Pete
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Based on the GSL FAQ, I would guess Necromancer couldn't put out a 4E version of Pathfinder any more than Paizo could. Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems like a pretty easy way around the "each product line much be OGL -OR- GSL, not both" restriction.
Cheers! :)
I don't want a 4e Pathfinder. Let me explain what I mean:
A lot of the flavour of Pathfinder, sin magic being the biggest example, would get lost in 4.x, or would need to be revamped. I do want Paizo/Necromancer to produce product, just not on Golarion.
Maybe, in homage to Jack Kirby, they should call it the fourth world?
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Well, this post went in a different direction than I originally envisioned!
erian_7, thanks for reminding me about that post, which Mike McArtor later confirmed.
Dark Mistess, thanks for the links.
paolo, it was the "may do 4E products" from a Paizo post that fired up my question. But I can understand the company's POV: it's a lot of work to (re)create an rpg while simultaneously creating the world (Golorian) to house it.
james jacob, lisa stevens, mike mcartor, and the rest of the Paizo staff. Go on vacation. For a month :)
Anyway, as a fan, player, and DM of 3.x,
PRPG via OGL, and 4E, I will continue to follow all systems across many forums until (cue Pokemon music): "I can buy them all!" :)
Well, this post went in a different direction than I originally envisioned!
erian_7, thanks for reminding me about that post, which Mike McArtor later confirmed.
Wow, this didn't go the way I was thinking either! Sorry all, I definitely wasn't trying to rile up such a storm. I'm no 4e fan, as is probably obvious from my few posts in this forum, but I also hope I can have a decent conversation here with 4e fans without my lack of support being seen as some sort of attack.
My point from the original post was more expectation management than anything else. Its very important for a project or business to manage what stakeholders/customers believe is "in bounds" for them. I wasn't sure from the first few posts that folks were really understanding the limits Paizo has right now. Focusing on core competencies and brand management are critical components for a successful business, so though I know it isn't so great for 4e fans I also think Paizo's approach is the best way to go right now. When they double in size due to the popularity of Pathfinder RPG, then some diversification into 4e (since they'll have doubled their staff by then) should be fine... ;^)
It seems to me, Timothy, that you only want to read my words as you see fit, and so I will not continue to argue over them with you. You disagree with me and that is fine.
I don't care to argue on a messageboard with people I've never met and never will meet. I've posted more in the last couple days than I have in the last couple months, and I'm tired of it. It's not what I find entertaining, and I only meant to give Paizo my customer feedback in the first place.
I've said my piece, I've indicated the types of 4e products I'd like to see, and I've been put at ease by Lisa's post regarding Paizo's interest in its 4e fans.
Before I leave the thread, I just want to sum up my feelings in hopes that it clears up any confusion.
I don't expect Paizo to commit to any 4e products right now. They don't have the resources to do so, nor do they have the rules and the GSL in order to make an informed decision. They have, however, brought up the possibility (even if it is very small or far down the road) of doing 4e products some day. So there's no reason Paizo customers shouldn't discuss what types of those products they would like to see. That doesn't mean anyone expects Paizo to do any of them (in the near future or even ever), but given that Paizo prides themselves on how much they listen to their customers, I would expect them not to discourage such discussion. And while it was actually Shroomy's point about encouraging the fan-created 4e conversions, I do agree. If Paizo is going to say they want their fans to do conversions, they should back that up with words of encouragement, if not actual ideas. Perhaps as Lisa said, it is a bit early for that, and we may see more of it in the future.
So I guess that's two expectations I have of Paizo. I am not demanding 4e products, or even Mexican food ;) But I do expect Paizo to listen to its customers (even if they don't act upon the feedback), and I expect them to offer encouragement when they ask something of their community. I have these expectations because they are in line with the standard Paizo has already set as one of the most customer-friendly businesses out there.
If you want to disagree with me, we will have to agree to disagree. I've said what I want to say, and I'm confident that my concerns were heard by the people I needed to hear them (i.e. the ones who make the products I'm buying). As I said, I do not wish to argue over this anymore.
Thank you, Lisa, James, the rest of Paizo, and everyone else for hearing me out.
I am not demanding 4e products, or even Mexican food ;)
I'm cool with no 4e products, but I would kill for a Pathfinder-brand enchilada about now.
The goblins make them...
Tastes like chicken....
I am just saying that there are some very bright, very talented people at Wizards who are pulling out the stops to make this game a masterpiece.
Q.F.T.
I would like to reiterate that without having seen the entire product as a whole, statements about how 4E doesn't feel like the same old D&D anymore are, at best, premature.
More importantly, if the folks at paizo, fans and employees alike, base your opinions solely on that quality, you may be missing out on the best fantasy role-playing system we've seen to date. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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More importantly, if the folks at paizo, fans and employees alike, base your opinions solely on that quality, you may be missing out on the best fantasy role-playing system we've seen to date. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Indeed, the counter is also valid: by getting overly excited about something which we know 1-2% about, you may be getting excited about something that may be the worst disaster to hit the hobby to date. Let's all take a deep breath, stop speculating and get back to what the game's for: having fun.
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I would like to reiterate that without having seen the entire product as a whole, statements about how 4E doesn't feel like the same old D&D anymore are, at best, premature.
I disagree, to a point. I surely don't intend to NOT TRY 4E, what with already having prepurchased my materials and all, but between the two preview books, the preview rules, the minitures stats, and a myriad of articles already released, I feel that there is MORE than sufficient information on hand for me to be able to make an intelligent decision that, while this MAY indeed be a great fantasy role-playing game, it is extremely different from the D&D line that I have been playing for over 30 years.
I don't intend to keep that from letting me play 4E, but I will say that I am preferring the flavor and generic setting information of pre-4E better. I've never been a "competitive" player so all the "glaring failures" that WotC has revamped the system for have never been an issue for me.
Lisa, thank you for replying to my post. I understand your position and will reserve ultimate judgement until after June 6th.
Vikings.
Vikings.
Not Smurf Vikings. Viking Vikings.
No.
Vikings.
Vikings that eat Snickers(tm).
Ok for Vikings.
But Celts too.