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The newest Excerpt is up.
For those who don't care to link:
To think of them another way, paragon paths are like snack-size packets of character concept—just enough, but not so much you’ve ruined your dinner with either bloat or an unhappy mixture of class concepts for your taste. Dip into one flavor by selecting your path for 11th to 20th, and then select another course again from 21st to 30th with an epic destiny. (Alternatively if you wish, you can also select powers from a second class in place of a paragon path. That’s described in the information on multiclassing, and something we’ll cover in a future preview article.)
The Player’s Handbook supplies many paragon paths (you’ll find one for each class, previewed below), plus upcoming products and Dragon Magazine features will include even more paths as time goes on. That gives you lots of snack-size packets to choose from in order to craft the perfect character and differentiate your par-ticular class build from the many others in the Dungeons & Dragons game.
Here are the fundamentals: You select a paragon path at 11th level. You gain access to two or more paragon path features at 11th level, including a paragon path feature that let’s you broaden the use of an action point with an additional benefit. You also gain another paragon path feature at 16th level. In addition, selecting a paragon path gives you access to one encounter power at 11th, one utility power at 12th, and a daily power at 20th. All of which looks like this:
11th: Paragon path feature
11th: Paragon path action point feature
11th: Paragon path encounter power
12th: Paragon path utility power
16th: Paragon path feature
20th: Paragon path daily power
--Julia Martin
You have survived and thrived through ten levels of adventure.
You’ve explored dank dungeons, defeated vile monsters, and learned priceless secrets. You’ve started making a name for yourself.
Now you’re ready to take the next step: you’re ready to choose a paragon path.
As your class describes your basic role in the party, your paragon path represents a particular area of expertise within that role. It’s a form of specialization beyond even what a build choice represents. You might be a battle cleric and specialize in melee powers, but starting at 11th level you can be a warpriest and specialize in battle prayers.
As shown on the Character Advancement table on page 29 of the Player's Handbook, your paragon path gives you new capabilities from 11th level through 20th level. But adopting a paragon path doesn’t mean you stop advancing in your class. All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come in addition to your class powers and features, not instead of them. You don’t stop being a cleric when you become a radiant servant. Instead, you gain new capabilities that extend, enhance, and complement the abilities of your class.
Paragon paths also broaden the use of action points in different ways. Each paragon path features a different, extra capability that characters can unlock by spending action points. So, once you pick your paragon path, you can still spend an action point to take an extra action. But you’ll also have a new capability for action points that is unique to your path. Some of these capabilities come in addition to the extra action you get for spending an action point, some are used instead of getting an extra action.
When you reach 11th level, choose a paragon path. All paths have prerequisites, conditions you have to fulfill before you can adopt that path.
Paragon Tier Feats
Any feat in the following section is available to a character of 11th level or higher who meets the prerequisites. A sampling of paragon tier feats:
Name Prerequisites Benefit
Armor Specialization (Chainmail) Dex 15, training with chainmail +1 to AC with chainmail, reduce check penalty by 1
Danger Sense — Roll twice for initiative, use the higher result
Deadly Axe Str 17, Con 13 Treat all axes as high crit weapons
Devastating Critical — Deal additional 1d10 damage on a critical hit
Empowered Dragon Breath Dragonborn, dragon breath racial power Dragon breath uses d10s
Lasting Frost — Target hit with cold power gains vulnerable cold 5
Scimitar Dance Str 15, Dex 17 Deal Dex modifier damage on miss
Second Implement Wizard, Arcane Implement Mastery class feature Gain mastery with second arcane implement
Seize the Moment Dex 17 Gain combat advantage over foe with lower initiative
Sly Hunter Wis 15 +3 damage with bow against isolated target
Spear Push Str 15, Dex 13 Add 1 square to distance pushed with spear or polearm
Steady Shooter Con 15 +3 damage with crossbow if you don’t move
Twofold Curse Warlock, Warlock’s Curse class feature Curse the two nearest enemies
Underfoot Halfling, trained in Acrobatics Move through spaces of Large or larger creatures
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Cleric: Warpriest
“Let loose the gift of battle!”
Prerequisite: Cleric class
Your god demands battle to accomplish the tenets of your faith, and you are the chosen priest at the forefront of the war. When you call upon your divine powers, your weapons glow with holy light.
Warpriest Path Features
Extra Damage Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you also add one-half your level to the damage dealt by any of your standard action attacks this turn.
Warpriest’s Strategy (11th level): Once per encounter, if you or an adjacent ally rolls a 1 when making a melee attack or a close attack, you can call for a reroll.
Warpriest’s Training (11th level): You receive a +1 bonus to AC when wearing heavy armor.
Warpriest’s Challenge (16th level): When you hit an enemy with an at-will melee attack, you can choose to mark that enemy for the rest of the encounter. The next time that enemy shifts or attacks a creature other than you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy. If you mark a new enemy with this feature, any previous marks you have made with this feature end.
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Fighter: Kensei
“My weapon and I are as one.”
Prerequisite: Fighter class
You study an ancient form of martial training that makes you one with your chosen weapon, creating a combination of destruction that few foes can long stand against.
Kensei Path Features
Kensei Control Action (11th level): You can spend an action point to reroll one attack roll, damage roll, skill check, or ability check, instead of taking an extra action.
Kensei Focus (11th level): You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with a melee weapon of your choice.
Kensei Mastery (16th level): You gain a +4 bonus to damage rolls with the same weapon you selected for Kensei Focus. If you ever use a different type of weapon, you lose this benefit, and the benefit for Kensei Focus, until you take a short rest, during which time you reattune yourself to your chosen weapon with a short meditation.
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Paladin: Justiciar
“I fight for justice, my faith and my strong arm defending those in need.”
Prerequisite: Paladin class
You become the embodiment of justice, a champion of righteousness and fairness—at least as viewed from the perspective of your particular faith. You are granted the ability to shelter and protect your allies and others in need, while also receiving powers that help you do the right thing according to the faith you have embraced.
Justiciar Path Features
Just Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, each enemy adjacent to you is weakened until the end of its next turn.
Just Spirit (11th level): Each ally adjacent to you can reroll one saving throw at the end of his or her turn.
Just Shelter (16th level): Allies adjacent to you are immune to fear and charm effects and receive a +1 bonus to saving throws.
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Ranger: Stormwarden
“I have accepted the burden of the stormwardens of the Feywild, and this region is under my protection.”
Prerequisite: Ranger class, two-blade fighting style
Your role as a warden and defender of the wild takes on new heights as you learn the ancient ways of the stormwardens of the Feywild. These techniques turn your whirling blades into a storm of destruction that rains down punishing blows on your enemies. With each slash of your weapon, the wind howls in anticipation of the coming storm.
Stormwarden Path Features
Blade Storm (11th level): As long as you are armed with a melee weapon and are capable of making an opportunity attack, one adjacent enemy (your choice) takes damage equal to your Dexterity modifier at the end of your turn.
Stormstep Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you can teleport 3 squares either before or after you use the extra action.
Twin-Blade Storm (16th level): As long as you are armed with a melee weapon and are capable of making an opportunity attack, two adjacent enemies (your choice) take lightning damage equal to your Dexterity modifier at the end of your turn.
Stormwarden Exploits
Clearing the Ground Stormwarden Attack 11
You sweep your blades in mighty arcs around you, cutting foes that get too close and thrusting them back.
EncounterMartial,Weapon
Standard Action Close burst 1
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Target: Each enemy in burst you can see
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the target 1 square.
Throw Caution to the Wind Stormwarden Utility 12
Aw, what the hell. You only live once.
EncounterMartial, Stance
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You take a –2 penalty to all defenses and gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls.
Cold Steel Hurricane Stormwarden Attack 20
You rush into the midst of your enemies and, like a freezing wind, flay them alive.
DailyMartial, Weapon
Standard Action Close burst 1
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Special: Before you attack, shift a number of squares equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Target: Each enemy in burst you can see
Attack: Strength vs. AC (main weapon and off-hand weapon), two attacks per target
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage per attack.
Effect: You regain your second wind if you have already used it during this encounter.
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Rogue: Shadow Assassin
“When you need something dead, you’ll be hard pressed to find someone better at the job than me.”
Prerequisite: Rogue class
You become a killing machine, striking from the shadows with deadly and bloody efficiency, and turning attacks against you into pain and suffering for your enemies. You believe in doing unto others before they can do unto you, and you know how to deliver punishment as only a striker can.
Shadow Assassin Path Features
Shadow Assassin’s Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you also gain a +4 bonus to attack rolls until the start of your next turn.
Shadow Assassin’s Riposte (11th level): Any adjacent enemy that misses you with a melee attack takes damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.
Bloody Evisceration (16th level): Gain an extra 1d6 Sneak Attack damage when attacking a bloodied enemy.
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Warlock: Doomsayer
“I speak for the cold darkness beyond the stars. I see the myriad ways that doom comes upon you.”
Prerequisite: Warlock class, star pact
You wrap yourself in the fear of the darkness beyond the stars and use it as a shield against your enemies. In addition, you examine the strands of fate to issue proclamations of doom to all who stand against you.
Doomsayer Path Features
Doomsayer’s Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you also deal the extra damage of your Warlock’s Curse to all of your enemies currently affected by it.
Doomsayer’s Proclamation (11th level): Enemies within 10 squares of you must roll two dice when rolling saving throws against fear effects. They must use the lower of the two rolls.
Doomsayer’s Oath (16th level): When you are bloodied, you gain a +2 power bonus to attack rolls when you use a power that has the fear keyword.
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Warlord: Sword Marshal
“This weapon is my symbol of office, and it shines over the field of battle as I wield it against our enemies.”
Prerequisite: Warlord class, proficiency with heavy blade
You have extensively studied the use of light blades and heavy blades, and your weapon of choice has become a symbol of your power and leadership. You never enter a battle without your blade in hand, and your allies know to look for the gleaming weapon when they need help or inspiration.
Sword Marshal Path Features
Disciplined Blade (11th level): When you miss with a melee attack when using a heavy blade, you gain a +2 bonus to your next attack roll against the same enemy.
Sword Marshal’s Action (11th level): You can spend an action point to regain one warlord encounter power you have already used, instead of taking an extra action.
Skewer the Weak (16th level): When you score a critical hit using a heavy blade, you and all your allies gain combat advantage against the enemy you struck until the end of your next turn.
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Wizard: Battle Mage
“You think I’m just a simple scholar, my head buried amid my scrolls and books? Think again!”
Prerequisite: Wizard class
You didn’t leave behind the thrill of battle when you took up the mantle of wizard, so why should you stand back and let the fighters have all the fun? You have developed skills and techniques that have turned you into a true battle mage, ready to deal damage up close and personal or from afar, depending on the situation and how the mood strikes you. You have even learned of a technique for using arcane energy to temporarily stave off death—and you can’t wait to try it out in battle!
Battle Mage Path Features
Arcane Riposte (11th level): Imbued with magical might, your hands bristle with arcane energy in the heat of battle. When a creature provokes an opportunity attack from you, make an opportunity attack with one of your hands (Dexterity vs. AC). Choose cold, fire, force, or lightning. You deal 1d8 + Intelligence modifier damage of that type with this attack.
Battle Mage Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you also gain a +4 bonus to attack rolls until the start of your next turn.
Battle Edge (16th level): When you first become bloodied in an encounter, you can use any at-will power you know as an immediate reaction.
I'm very pleased with these. Less competition between going end game with your basic class and a prestige class. If you are a wizard, its okay to stick it out and just apply a few side benefits to your basic package.
Neat!
Paragon paths seem to be more similar to the 2E Kits than 3E Prestige classes. A wizard who becomes a "battle mage" is still a wizard.
They also avoid all sort of broken "combos", since you can take a single paragon path, and you can't take a paragon path and multiclass at the same time.
What worries me a bit is that many paragon features seem to be passive abilities, being triggered on situations like "The next time that enemy shifts or attacks a creature other than you", "When you score a critical hit using a heavy blade" or "When a creature provokes an opportunity attack from you" or "Any adjacent enemy that misses you with a melee attacks".
Too many passive abilities may make difficult to the player to remember what his character can do, leading to annoying situations like "Hey, I should have done an extra X to the enemy in the previous turn" or "Hey, I forgot to add +X bonus from the XXX ability", that everyone should be familiar with.
At least, thankfully, monsters will have different character creation rules so the DM is free from these worries. =)
These suck. I miss prestige classes even more now.
Prestige classes offered more combinations and more depth. They offered more options and more uniqueness. With this paragon deal, it's total crap. You're shoe-horned into only taking the path of your class (no Fighter/Assassins? What's the deal!?) and you only get a few abilities. You also cannot take different powers from different paragon paths (such as, say, I was a Ranger who wanted some from Kensei and some from Stormwarden).
They talk about more options, but 4E is really turning out to be more restrictive, almost as much as 2E was.
Prestige classes will always be the best "kit" system, I believe.
Neat!
Paragon paths seem to be more similar to the 2E Kits than 3E Prestige classes. A wizard who becomes a "battle mage" is still a wizard.
They also avoid all sort of broken "combos", since you can take a single paragon path, and you can't take a paragon path and multiclass at the same time.
What worries me a bit is that many paragon features seem to be passive abilities, being triggered on situations like "The next time that enemy shifts or attacks a creature other than you", "When you score a critical hit using a heavy blade" or "When a creature provokes an opportunity attack from you" or "Any adjacent enemy that misses you with a melee attacks".
Too many passive abilities may make difficult to the player to remember what his character can do, leading to annoying situations like "Hey, I should have done an extra X to the enemy in the previous turn" or "Hey, I forgot to add +X bonus from the XXX ability", that everyone should be familiar with.
At least, thankfully, monsters will have different character creation rules so the DM is free from these worries. =)
Note only the Stormwarden PP had some exploits described. All of the PPs will off similar abilities.
Cheers! :)
I listened to this on my morning commute (35 min walking, 20 min if I take the subway ... bow before my awesome morning commute!) and it was excellent! I wasn't a big fan of podcasting but the interview with Erik Mona on Fear The Boot (I believe) was my introduction. It was hilarious to hear that referenced in the first question on the Hot Seat.
Every time I listen to a Paizo employee or one of their affiliates, I get more respect for the company and more respect for what they're trying to do.
Uh? This seems more off-topic that usual. What's Feat The Boot? :?
Uh? This seems more off-topic that usual. What's Feat The Boot? :?I listened to this on my morning commute (35 min walking, 20 min if I take the subway ... bow before my awesome morning commute!) and it was excellent! I wasn't a big fan of podcasting but the interview with Erik Mona on Fear The Boot (I believe) was my introduction. It was hilarious to hear that referenced in the first question on the Hot Seat.
Every time I listen to a Paizo employee or one of their affiliates, I get more respect for the company and more respect for what they're trying to do.
I was posting this to a different thread. I'm not sure why it showed up here.
I was having significant problems with the messageboards this morning (couldn't start a new thread, posts showing up in the wrong thread, wouldn't let me edit posts). I feel for the people trying to support these forums. It seems like they (the forums) have grown past what they were spec'ed for.
A happy day for the forum developer, a bad day for the project manager responsible for them. I've worn both hats.
Wow. I've always found these boards pretty wonky myself, but never had anything as bad as that. I agree, might be pushing the limits over there.
Cheers! :)
Uh? This seems more off-topic that usual. What's Feat The Boot? :?
Well, it is Paizo related because Erik Mona did an interview with them recently all about the Pathfinder project.
Fear the Boot is a really great table top gaming podcast, where four or five friends sit down and just discuss everything there is to discuss about the theory and practice of gaming. How you run a game, what's the best style of play, of GMing, what games are good, and what make them good, hw to deal with problem players, everything.
They aren't system specific in their topics, and they're equal oppertunity trash talkers when it comes to the hundreds of gaming systems out there.
They are a really, really great podcast, and I highly recommend you take a listen.
These suck. I miss prestige classes even more now.
Prestige classes offered more combinations and more depth. They offered more options and more uniqueness. With this paragon deal, it's total crap. You're shoe-horned into only taking the path of your class (no Fighter/Assassins? What's the deal!?) and you only get a few abilities. You also cannot take different powers from different paragon paths (such as, say, I was a Ranger who wanted some from Kensei and some from Stormwarden).
They talk about more options, but 4E is really turning out to be more restrictive, almost as much as 2E was.
Prestige classes will always be the best "kit" system, I believe.
Prestige classes were all well and good when 3E came out because they were useful in refining a character concept. Then, they gradually became the class you really gunned for because your normal class just sucked (fighter, sorcerer, and wizard come to mind).
I find it odd that you are griping about two very, VERY unlikely class combinations to make some kind of point. Fighter/assassin? Yeah, thats commonplace.Well, I guess you could just, you know...take a level in rogue and then go into Shadow Assassin. Kind of like what most people would likely do in order to meet the prerequisites before 10th-level.
Basically, if I want to play a fighter, wizard, or ranger, they are actually mechanically viable choices: I dont want nor need to prestige out into a more powerful class later.
Note only the Stormwarden PP had some exploits described. All of the PPs will off similar abilities.
Cheers! :)
I know that. But my problem is not the lack of active abilities but the (possible) excess of passive abilities. If count passive abilities from: class features + powers + feats + paragon features, it may result in an character very difficult to manage.
4E is supposed to be more friendly to new players, but from my experience, giving a new player an ability which is activated "when an ally shifts after missing an attack against an adjacent foe" or "when the closest enemy hits an attack of opportunity with a bladed weapon" is the ideal way to ensure that he will never use it, unless the DM remembers him.
Passive abilities are not bad per se, they have the advantage of making a player pay attention to combat even when it's not his turn. But too many can make the game a lot confusing.
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These suck. I miss prestige classes even more now.
Prestige classes offered more combinations and more depth. They offered more options and more uniqueness. With this paragon deal, it's total crap. You're shoe-horned into only taking the path of your class (no Fighter/Assassins? What's the deal!?) and you only get a few abilities. You also cannot take different powers from different paragon paths (such as, say, I was a Ranger who wanted some from Kensei and some from Stormwarden).
They talk about more options, but 4E is really turning out to be more restrictive, almost as much as 2E was.
Prestige classes will always be the best "kit" system, I believe.
From Enworld:
WotC's Michele Carter on paragon paths:
1) There are over 30 paragon paths in the PH.
2) My paladin took a multiclass cleric feat so she could qualify for a cleric paragon path.
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So it would seem that Fighter/Assassins are fine, as long as you meet the pre-req's. Which is the same as things were for prestige classes.
These suck. I miss prestige classes even more now.
Prestige classes offered more combinations and more depth. They offered more options and more uniqueness. With this paragon deal, it's total crap. You're shoe-horned into only taking the path of your class (no Fighter/Assassins? What's the deal!?) and you only get a few abilities. You also cannot take different powers from different paragon paths (such as, say, I was a Ranger who wanted some from Kensei and some from Stormwarden).
They talk about more options, but 4E is really turning out to be more restrictive, almost as much as 2E was.
Prestige classes will always be the best "kit" system, I believe.
From Enworld:
WotC's Michele Carter on paragon paths:
1) There are over 30 paragon paths in the PH.
2) My paladin took a multiclass cleric feat so she could qualify for a cleric paragon path.
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So it would seem that Fighter/Assassins are fine, as long as you meet the pre-req's. Which is the same as things were for prestige classes.
Which also alleviates the problem in a much more simplistic fashion.
Which also alleviates the problem in a much more simplistic fashion.These suck. I miss prestige classes even more now.
Prestige classes offered more combinations and more depth. They offered more options and more uniqueness. With this paragon deal, it's total crap. You're shoe-horned into only taking the path of your class (no Fighter/Assassins? What's the deal!?) and you only get a few abilities. You also cannot take different powers from different paragon paths (such as, say, I was a Ranger who wanted some from Kensei and some from Stormwarden).
They talk about more options, but 4E is really turning out to be more restrictive, almost as much as 2E was.
Prestige classes will always be the best "kit" system, I believe.
From Enworld:
WotC's Michele Carter on paragon paths:
1) There are over 30 paragon paths in the PH.
2) My paladin took a multiclass cleric feat so she could qualify for a cleric paragon path.
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So it would seem that Fighter/Assassins are fine, as long as you meet the pre-req's. Which is the same as things were for prestige classes.
Yes! More proof that 4e's streamlined ruleset is exactly what I've been waiting for! Clearer rules, more roleplaying. I can't wait until June!
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Neat!
What worries me a bit is that many paragon features seem to be passive abilities, being triggered on situations like "The next time that enemy shifts or attacks a creature other than you", "When you score a critical hit using a heavy blade" or "When a creature provokes an opportunity attack from you" or "Any adjacent enemy that misses you with a melee attacks".
Too many passive abilities may make difficult to the player to remember what his character can do, leading to annoying situations like "Hey, I should have done an extra X to the enemy in the previous turn" or "Hey, I forgot to add +X bonus from the XXX ability", that everyone should be familiar with.
To this I agree. The biggest thing my players hate about 3.0/3.5 is all the extra stuff to keep track of. In fact there has been many times as DM I had to go back a round to add damage that should have happened. Players tend to think about what other do, then what they do, then what powers are still going on. Hope too many passive powers are not in store for monsters too. The simpler the better. I so love the kits feel this has from 2nd edition.
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Basically, if I want to play a fighter, wizard, or ranger, they are actually mechanically viable choices: I dont want nor need to prestige out into a more powerful class later.These suck. I miss prestige classes even more now.
Prestige classes offered more combinations and more depth. They offered more options and more uniqueness. With this paragon deal, it's total crap. You're shoe-horned into only taking the path of your class (no Fighter/Assassins? What's the deal!?) and you only get a few abilities. You also cannot take different powers from different paragon paths (such as, say, I was a Ranger who wanted some from Kensei and some from Stormwarden).
They talk about more options, but 4E is really turning out to be more restrictive, almost as much as 2E was.
Prestige classes will always be the best "kit" system, I believe.
What about mongrelman Bard/assassin? Man 4th edition is too limiting :)
These suck. I miss prestige classes even more now...
No way! I never guessed you'd feel that way. :rolleyes:
Anyway, I like these. They don't force a "base vs. prestige" decision, but let you differentiate your character. Depending on how they work with multi-classing they could be superior to the 3.X model.
Of course I fear we will see an uncontrolled flood of these popping up in supplements (much like PRCs), but I don't see that as a fault of Paragon Paths specifically.
I find it odd that you are griping about two very, VERY unlikely class combinations to make some kind of point. Fighter/assassin? Yeah, thats commonplace.
Well, I guess you could just, you know...take a level in rogue and then go into Shadow Assassin. Kind of like what most people would likely do in order to meet the prerequisites before 10th-level.
I was throwing a mere example, it wasn't meant to be dissected so whatever point you were trying to make had no context to what I was actually stating.
To this I agree. The biggest thing my players hate about 3.0/3.5 is all the extra stuff to keep track of. In fact there has been many times as DM I had to go back a round to add damage that should have happened. Players tend to think about what other do, then what they do, then what powers are still going on. Hope too many passive powers are not in store for monsters too. The simpler the better. I so love the kits feel this has from 2nd edition.
And this differs how from 4e? In about one year or two you're already going to go through the same exact "problems".
And I mean "problems" cause I laugh at people so much that talk about glut in D&D. The glut is the DM's fault and the DM's fault ONLY. WotC provides the material and options, you're under no obligation to include that into your games. If your game is hard to keep track of and is "gluttonous" then stop using non-core material. All you need to play D&D is the 3 core books, that's it. Limit your game to core books only, simple, done.
Blaming WotC, or whoever, for wanting more options until it weighs our planet down is assinine.
Blaming WotC, or whoever, for wanting more options until it weighs our planet down is assinine.
Isn't 4e but an option?
And this differs how from 4e? In about one year or two you're already going to go through the same exact "problems".And I mean "problems" cause I laugh at people so much that talk about glut in D&D. The glut is the DM's fault and the DM's fault ONLY. WotC provides the material and options, you're under no obligation to include that into your games. If your game is hard to keep track of and is "gluttonous" then stop using non-core material. All you need to play D&D is the 3 core books, that's it. Limit your game to core books only, simple, done.
Blaming WotC, or whoever, for wanting more options until it weighs our planet down is assinine.
Agree with this. In my perfect world, most of the post-core releases would be overwhelmingly fluff (like say, Guide to Korvosa) and adventures. But I realize that isn't a very profitable model.
Prestige classes offered more combinations and more depth. They offered more options and more uniqueness. With this paragon deal, it's total crap. You're shoe-horned into only taking the path of your class (no Fighter/Assassins? What's the deal!?) and you only get a few abilities. You also cannot take different powers from different paragon paths (such as, say, I was a Ranger who wanted some from Kensei and some from Stormwarden).
You are complaining that paragon paths "shoehorn" you into taking one of many diverse options that do nothing to inhibit your existing character, but merely dole out some extra freebies. It would be like if every 11th-level character got a Bonus Feat, just 'cause.
The reality is that there are like, 30 paragon paths in the PH at launch, meaning that I would anticipate every class getting at least seven paths, with a few classes getting eight. Of course, if you dont want to take a paragon path, you can just snap up some powers from an entirely different class to round yourself out. NONE of those seem particularly restrictive at ALL.
To try and prove your point, you "merely" pointed out a very, very unlikely class combination as some kind of proof that the paths are "restrictive". You then tried to emphasize it with another pretty strange example (ranger/kensei).
I refuted this claim by saying that you could just multiclass into another class in order to take a paragon path if you really, REALLY felt like you wanted to do that. Of course, another poster pointed out that, hey, you can take a feat in order to take a paragon path that would normally be blocked to you.
In all actuality, it seems like a pretty petty complaint. "I want to play a fighter/assassin!" Do you absolutely HAVE to have the word assassin in your list of classes/prestige classes in order to feel legit?
The assassin class isnt that great in 3rd Edition: I'm happier just going rogue and making logical skill and feat choices to best emulate the whole thing, and it sounds like it'll be even easier and more effective to do so in 4th Edition than before since I wont be wasting levels on a class that gives me heaps of proficiencies that I wont use at the cost of being able to reliably max out my Hide/Move Silently skills, not to mention my Sneak Attack thats worth more than the ability to wear full plate and use a tower shield.
Personally, I like what I see in these paragon paths. They offer a way to specialize without losing the base abilities of your class. Hopefully, though ,there will be some paths that aren't too different from the base class, for those people who want to stay focused on what they started out as.
I do hope, however, that Wizards keeps the paths balanced with one another, so each one is a viable choice... Otherwise, one day, when Wizards has released a lot more paths, people will still be picking only one or two particular paths because they're just more powerful than the others...
I think the fact that every path has the same entry point (11th) and the same exit point (20th) and seems to gain abilities at the same rate, will make them pretty easy to balance. Plus you won't (from what we know) be able to mix two or more paths together, making balance even easier to maintain (you don't have to make it balanced while used with everything else, just itself).
I think each class will have about 4 paths in the first set of books ... and I'd assume one of them is going to be "generic Class path". That is, "generic Fighter path", "generic Wizard path", etc, for those who don't really have a specialization they want to take. But what do I know?
Teiren,
Thanks for the info but I really really (did I say really?) can't stand podcasts. Maybe one day my irrational feelings towards podcasts will wane and I'll try giving it a listen though.
Cheers! :)
I think the fact that every path has the same entry point (11th) and the same exit point (20th) and seems to gain abilities at the same rate, will make them pretty easy to balance. Plus you won't (from what we know) be able to mix two or more paths together, making balance even easier to maintain (you don't have to make it balanced while used with everything else, just itself).
I think each class will have about 4 paths in the first set of books ... and I'd assume one of them is going to be "generic Class path". That is, "generic Fighter path", "generic Wizard path", etc, for those who don't really have a specialization they want to take. But what do I know?
Teiren,
Thanks for the info but I really really (did I say really?) can't stand podcasts. Maybe one day my irrational feelings towards podcasts will wane and I'll try giving it a listen though.
Cheers! :)
Four is what I meant. I think I was thinking roles and not classes when I did the math. :-P
I find it odd that you are griping about two very, VERY unlikely class combinations to make some kind of point. Fighter/assassin? Yeah, thats commonplace.
Well, I guess you could just, you know...take a level in rogue and then go into Shadow Assassin. Kind of like what most people would likely do in order to meet the prerequisites before 10th-level.I was throwing a mere example, it wasn't meant to be dissected so whatever point you were trying to make had no context to what I was actually stating.
To this I agree. The biggest thing my players hate about 3.0/3.5 is all the extra stuff to keep track of. In fact there has been many times as DM I had to go back a round to add damage that should have happened. Players tend to think about what other do, then what they do, then what powers are still going on. Hope too many passive powers are not in store for monsters too. The simpler the better. I so love the kits feel this has from 2nd edition.
And this differs how from 4e? In about one year or two you're already going to go through the same exact "problems".
And I mean "problems" cause I laugh at people so much that talk about glut in D&D. The glut is the DM's fault and the DM's fault ONLY. WotC provides the material and options, you're under no obligation to include that into your games. If your game is hard to keep track of and is "gluttonous" then stop using non-core material. All you need to play D&D is the 3 core books, that's it. Limit your game to core books only, simple, done.
Blaming WotC, or whoever, for wanting more options until it weighs our planet down is assinine.
Cause core 3E was so balanced and the Splats were just filled to the brim with brokenness and passive scores that numbered into the hundreds.
Uhh, he meant 'core' in the sense of SRD only, not "everything that WotC has published itself". So all those splatbooks and other piles of garbage aren't an issue, since you don't have to use them.
I just wonder what's keeping the paragon paths from going down the same road. Prestige classes started out pretty interesting. They ended up a nightmare.
Anyway, I do hope they have an option for rangers who don't want to turn into some sort of super agent or whatever. I hope that there is a paragon path for 'more of the same'.
Its also going to be interesting to see how 'fluff determining' these paragon paths are. One of the ranger paths is a "stormwarden of the feywild". Which means the DM has to use the Feywild and probably have some sort of organization called Stormwardens unless they want to rewrite or disallow one of the ranger's three or four options.
Paragon paths seem extremely easy to design: make a perk for using an Action Point, make a power for 11th-level, and make a power for 16th-level. Thats about it. Prestige classes are much, MUCH more complicated to design, and thus more prone to abuse.
As for the Stormwarden, since nothing about the paragon path seems to require the existence of the Stormwarden organization (or even an organization at all), you could just as easily have the character NOT belong to any organization and just take it if they want to be better at using two weapons.
Thats an easy enough to fix to the perceived problem of "story enforcement".
I fail to see how using supplemental material increases game-time complexity unless the supplemental material is in itself more complex than the core material.
It seems that Wizards tries to minimize min/max.
Following your discussion my perception is that although prestige classes needed to be better than core classes in order to be attractive, this does not happen now that paragon path is a natural evolution of the core class.
This is good for the game and for me a valuable improvement.
These suck. I miss prestige classes even more now.
Prestige classes offered more combinations and more depth. They offered more options and more uniqueness. With this paragon deal, it's total crap. You're shoe-horned into only taking the path of your class (no Fighter/Assassins? What's the deal!?) and you only get a few abilities. You also cannot take different powers from different paragon paths (such as, say, I was a Ranger who wanted some from Kensei and some from Stormwarden).
They talk about more options, but 4E is really turning out to be more restrictive, almost as much as 2E was.
Prestige classes will always be the best "kit" system, I believe.
I don't know if anyone else has responded to this yet in this thread, but I wanted to nip this in the bud immediately upon reading it. What "Razz" said is COMPLETELY false. You CAN be a "fighter/assassin" or a "ranger/kensei". There is a way to take a feat to allow you to take a different class's paragon path. One tester/developer said her paladin took a feat so she could take a battle priest cleric paragon path.
So, please, do not listen to this rabble. People always want to make assumptions without knowing full well. Why don't you try absorbing the information before making "razz" judgments.
I think most people who have spent a little time on the 4E boards here have figured out that Razz has been overtaken with his rage (I imagine it kinda like 28 Days Later, with him running through the streets slaughtering those who refuse to play 3E with him).
I'm not sure if anyone takes him too seriously anymore (but I guess I could be wrong)
Cheers! :)
Edit: No offense meant to Razz of course. In person I'm sure we'd get along fine. His online persona can be a bit unhinged at times however. :)
These suck. I miss prestige classes even more now.
Prestige classes offered more combinations and more depth. They offered more options and more uniqueness. With this paragon deal, it's total crap. You're shoe-horned into only taking the path of your class (no Fighter/Assassins? What's the deal!?) and you only get a few abilities. You also cannot take different powers from different paragon paths (such as, say, I was a Ranger who wanted some from Kensei and some from Stormwarden).
They talk about more options, but 4E is really turning out to be more restrictive, almost as much as 2E was.
Prestige classes will always be the best "kit" system, I believe.
Razz please stay out of here since nothing you say is ever contructive or non-hatred filled.
We get it you are pissed and you hold a life-long grudge against WotC.
p.s. pretty sure you loath leet speak so I will write some just for you
KTHNXBAI!
I think most people who have spent a little time on the 4E boards here have figured out that Razz has been overtaken with his rage (I imagine it kinda like 28 Days Later, with him running through the streets slaughtering those who refuse to play 3E with him).
I'm not sure if anyone takes him too seriously anymore (but I guess I could be wrong)
Cheers! :)
Edit: No offense meant to Razz of course. In person I'm sure we'd get along fine. His online persona can be a bit unhinged at times however. :)
I try not to, but its fun disassembling what might constitute as an argument and refuting what he considers claims.
Generally I tend to ignore him because I cant remember him ever having anything valid to contribute to the whole 4th Edition thing.|
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I think most people who have spent a little time on the 4E boards here have figured out that Razz has been overtaken with his rage (I imagine it kinda like 28 Days Later, with him running through the streets slaughtering those who refuse to play 3E with him).
I'm not sure if anyone takes him too seriously anymore (but I guess I could be wrong)
Cheers! :)
E
Knowing what the full rules are or will become is impossible. We only have a few sources to read, pre-test, and play. What I do see as a major improvement is going back to the basics. In fact WOTC should call it not 4th edition but basic again. Simple rules, add what you want to it, take away wihtout taking away balance. This is what excites me the most on this fourth edition. For Razz to argue that 3.5 is not rule intensive and that 4th edition is going to be exactly the same is not an arguement because there are no facts supporting it. All of these is just opinion of the op and repliers out there. I like 4th edition for our group, yeah do I really want to take the time to reknow the game...no, but if the game in the long haul will play better, quicker, faster, and more fun, then I answer that question yes.
I still think Paragon Paths will be easier to keep balanced, due to the set level points, but overtime they probably will creep up in power ... it's the nature of the game (and by that, I mean I've seen this happen in nearly EVERY game I've ever played ... some just creep faster than others!)
As for different fluff, in my experience most of the PrCs that involved organizations or guilds were either A) never taken or B) taken but with the guild completely ignored. Just IME though.
Speaking of different fluff for the PPs, for some reason the idea of a Ranger gaining his Stormwarden abilities after being struck by a lightning bolt (magical or otherwise) seems interesting.
"After the storm Danny was always different. The way he walked, the way he moved. The way he shocked people who were touching metal around him."
Awesome! :)
Actually, its 3 features and three powers. But yes they are easier to design than prestige classes. It doesn't mean that they will remain reasonable once there hundreds and hundreds of them in existance. PrCs started out pretty straightforward, too. Wizards doesn't have a good track record with this sort of thing. It would be nice if they have learned their lesson, but we'll have to wait and see.
You're right -- D&D's track record is spotty on keeping things balanced. That's why they had to rewrite the rules pretty drastically to force everything into a new, balanced framework.
Now they can dictate "All 12th level characters should be able to do 2d6+12 damage (+ a minor effect) at will, 3d6+12 damage (+ a medium effect) once per encounter, and 4d6+12 damage (+ a strong effect) once per day." (Just an example -- I don't know what the actual damage ranges are.) Personally, I give Wizards an A- for their efforts to balance things (although it loses the "old-skool" AD&D flavour of a 12th-level wizard doing 12d6 damage and a 12th-level fighter doing 3d6+10).
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Does anyone else see how ridiculous calling something an "assassain" that only does a piddly 1d6 extra sneak attack damage and only against a bloodied target at that. Also, what's the deal with so many things doing dex damage to adjacent opponents without any real explanation. I guess it doesn't matter where it comes from as long as it lets them fill their "role". How lame can you get? These paragon paths are ridiculous. They lack real depth and the abilities they give are so minor, they could be duplicated with a few feats. They can't even begin to compete with the depth, utility, and flexibility of prestige classes.
Does anyone else see how ridiculous calling something an "assassain" that only does a piddly 1d6 extra sneak attack damage and only against a bloodied target at that. Also, what's the deal with so many things doing dex damage to adjacent opponents without any real explanation. I guess it doesn't matter where it comes from as long as it lets them fill their "role". How lame can you get? These paragon paths are ridiculous. They lack real depth and the abilities they give are so minor, they could be duplicated with a few feats. They can't even begin to compete with the depth, utility, and flexibility of prestige classes.
Well, I'd assume the real oompf of the PP comes from its powers, of which we've seen none. That being said, an extra 1d6 of Sneak Attack is nothing to sneeze at ... remember that 4E Rogues don't get the buckets of SA that 3E Rogues did. And as Krauser (I think?) mentioned in a different thread, the Riposte ability combined with some of the defensive abilities we've seen from the Rogue and Racial previews could make a pretty effective character who gets behind enemy lines and ripostes them to death as they swing and miss.
Further, I personally think the ability to constantly injure creatures around you is a pretty good ability, and I think I'd be hard pressed to replicate that in 3E (maybe one or two spells offer something like it; I certainly can't think of any Feats or PrCs that give it).
While I guess you can't take more than one PP, and in that manner they are less flexible than 3E PrCs, I otherwise think they're just as good in all the ways you feel they're not. 4E uses a different scale of power for its abilities, and as designers warned, you'll miss a lot if you assume it is 1:1 with 3E.
Cheers! :)
Does anyone else see how ridiculous calling something an "assassain" that only does a piddly 1d6 extra sneak attack damage and only against a bloodied target at that. Also, what's the deal with so many things doing dex damage to adjacent opponents without any real explanation. I guess it doesn't matter where it comes from as long as it lets them fill their "role". How lame can you get? These paragon paths are ridiculous. They lack real depth and the abilities they give are so minor, they could be duplicated with a few feats. They can't even begin to compete with the depth, utility, and flexibility of prestige classes.
I'm assuming that you are referring to the Shadow Assassin paragon path. Paragon paths are not intended to completely replace your class, as a prestige class is, they are designed to attach MORE abilities onto your existing character build.
Sneak attack damage in general has been reduced, partly because almost everything can be affected by it, but partly because class powers allow you to roll out more damage than what you're used to seeing.The Dexterity damage is from the riposte attack. It represents the assassin hitting them back after they miss. Since rogues and other agile characters add their Dex modifier to damage now, it makes sense to just say "Dex mod = damage".
I disagree with your stance on paragon paths and prestige classes. I think you are wrong because you are trying to compare two different things. I would say that paragon paths are better because they add instead of exchanging.