Ding! Your GSL is ready.

[Ken Marable]

Viktor_Von_Doom wrote:

Pax Veritas wrote:

On these message boards I've asked people to reset their thinking, to look past the marketing of WOTC, and see that there is no such thing as "official content" anymore, because 4th edition breaks the continuity and 30+ years of game traditions. This is evident in their design choices, and reconcepting of our game.

So has every frickin edition before it.

I would have to disagree here. At least how I interpreted it, "breaking continuity" refers to the fluff as well as some core basics of the game mechanics. Of course, there is debate about where to draw the line, but it's pretty clear that pretty much through 1, 2, and 3e, there was a Great Wheel cosmology, demon succubi, schools of magic, alignment for everyone, wizards memorizing/preparing all of their spells for the day, fireballs that were a handful of d6's for damage, so on and so on. There were of course changes between each edition , but the changes here seem far more significant (especially on the fluff side) than any previous edition change. 2 to 3 was pretty major, but much of the fluff and basics of how classes worked was tweaked not thrown out. Of course, many people do think all of those changes are for the better. But to deny that far more traditions are being changed with this edition shift than any past one is a pretty tall claim that I don't see much support for ("Every edition has had changes" and "Zee game remains zee same." aren't convincing arguments without more details). ;)

[Wicht]

Viktor_Von_Doom wrote:

All so whats stopping you from using the previous fluff (I hate that word)? Its not like WotC is going to come to your house and put a gun to your head and force you to use it.

Not a thing is stopping me. I plan on continuing to use it. That's why I'm going with Pathfinder RPG.

It has become abundantly clear that the sheer number of changes I would have to make with 4e in order to continue the continuity of my D&D heritage just makes the purchase of the ruleset less than worthwhile. I like Vancian Magic, Alignments, and rolling for hitpoints. I have no use for Warlocks, Warlords, and/or making Tielflings and Dragonborn core races. I could of course add all that I like back into the rules and ignore the parts I don't like, but why bother if Paizo is going to support the kind of world/story/rules that I like. :)

[Daeglin]

Viktor_Von_Doom wrote:

All so whats stopping you from using the previous fluff (I hate that word)? Its not like WotC is going to come to your house and put a gun to your head and force you to use it.

*click* Wanna bet?

Oh, and the new robotic My Little Ponies are programmed to hunt down any 3.5 OGL stuff in your house and crap on it.

;)

[Charles Evans 25]

Viktor_Von_Doom wrote:

Wicht wrote:

Viktor_Von_Doom wrote:

Pax Veritas wrote:

On these message boards I've asked people to reset their thinking, to look past the marketing of WOTC, and see that there is no such thing as "official content" anymore, because 4th edition breaks the continuity and 30+ years of game traditions. This is evident in their design choices, and reconcepting of our game.

So has every frickin edition before it.

I Don't know that they did to the same extent as 4e.

I transitioned quite nicely from OD&D to Ad&D to 2e to 3e and the things I learned about the world in OD&D have for the most part stood me in good stead all the way to today.

There have been a few odd tweaks here and there but I always knew that gold dragons were inherently good, red dragons were always evil, and which creatures were demons and which were devils.

All so whats stopping you from using the previous fluff (I hate that word)? Its not like WotC is going to come to your house and put a gun to your head and force you to use it.

This point has been made repeatedly before on Paizo threads (and no doubt in other places as well). My thought is that radically different 'fluff' creates a sense of disconnect for some people from previous editions as much (or perhaps more in some cases) as changes in actual mechanics of the rules. It helps create an impression for them that the game is *NOTHING* like anything which they have played before- is effectively something completely alien and new. Some people don't have the time and/or motivation to go out and pick up something completely new.

I am saddened to learn that a requirement of the GSL may apparently be that companies publishing under it will apparently be required not to publish new material under the OGL at the same time. I suspect that this may be the price of there being any kind of idea of third parties being allowed to publish 4E supporting products at all, and may be the outcome of some sort of internal struggle at WotC between D & D and the Hasbro legal department.

[Mactaka]

Wait. You were talking about JOE Jenknis, not Brown Jenkins. Nevermind.

Get of the Witch's House now! Run!

**

On topic: The revelations of the GSL sadden me. 3rd party can't publish until october...If you go 4e you can no longer go back to 3.5.

Does WotC really want people to choose sides?

[Charles Evans 25]

Mactaka wrote:

Wait. You were talking about JOE Jenknis, not Brown Jenkins. Nevermind.

Get of the Witch's House now! Run!

**

On topic: The revelations of the GSL sadden me. 3rd party can't publish until october...If you go 4e you can no longer go back to 3.5.

Does WotC really want people to choose sides?

I suspect that what is wanted is that third parties who want a piece of 4th edition action should commit exclusively to 4th Edition to do so. I don't know whether this has come from WotC, Hasbro's legal department, the Hasbro shareholders, the Hasbro board of directors, or some other source altogether. No matter what internal debates over at Hasbro/WotC may have led to this moment, I suspect that all Hasbro/WotC employees invovled will put on a united front over it in public, as a matter of loyalty to their company. I suspect that you will not hear anyone from WotC/Hasbro express in public that they think this is a bad idea.

EDIT:
I am not clear if the GSL will preclude alternate 'one-off private contracts' between WotC/Hasbro and other companies if it is in the interests of all parties involved to come to such arrangements at any point.

[Trey]

crosswiredmind wrote:

For a long time unofficial did equal inferior. Paizo really changed that with great material and high production quality.

WotC's move makes sense. They are just doing what works for them.

Oh, and BTW someone mentioned the software industry - believe me Microsoft does actively discourage folks from developing software for multiple versions of Windows.

Sorry, poor choice of analogy. I was tired and tetchy.

Suffice it to say, I comprehend the factors motivating Wizards' decision to restrict the product lines of companies that want to be affiliated with 4E, and I'm sure that in turn, WotC respects my decision to take my business someplace else due to my dissatisfaction with their policy.

[Fake Healer]

Nicolas Logue wrote:

Viktor_Von_Doom wrote:

Eh, never bought much 3rd party stuff in the first place.

I'll never understand this viewpoint. Why is the "official" stamp so important? The best WotC books (IMHO) are written by Paizo's peeps (James Jacobs' name on a book guarantees my money). Why does the writing have to be through the official brand to be any good?

I should say that I am not limiting the above comments to RPGS. I'm talking about everything from clothing to toilet paper too. I buy quality, I could care less who makes the stuff.

If an awesome book is published by Wizards, I pick it up. If an awesome book is published by Green Ronin, I pick it up. If an awesome book is published by Joe Jenkins in his garage, I pick it up.

Just my personal opinion of course.

I like that this was a response ON a 3rd party board. Irony anyone?

***The preceeding was in no way an attempt to insult any party or drive another party to leaving these boards. Any subsequent fallout will be the soul responsibility of the offended party.***

[crosswiredmind]

Mactaka wrote:

Wait. You were talking about JOE Jenknis, not Brown Jenkins. Nevermind.

Get of the Witch's House now! Run!

**

On topic: The revelations of the GSL sadden me. 3rd party can't publish until october...If you go 4e you can no longer go back to 3.5.

Does WotC really want people to choose sides?

People do not need to choose sides - publishers need to choose 3E or 4E. That is the only rel choice in all of this.

[Viktor_Von_Doom]

Fake Healer wrote:

Nicolas Logue wrote:

Viktor_Von_Doom wrote:

Eh, never bought much 3rd party stuff in the first place.

I'll never understand this viewpoint. Why is the "official" stamp so important? The best WotC books (IMHO) are written by Paizo's peeps (James Jacobs' name on a book guarantees my money). Why does the writing have to be through the official brand to be any good?

I should say that I am not limiting the above comments to RPGS. I'm talking about everything from clothing to toilet paper too. I buy quality, I could care less who makes the stuff.

If an awesome book is published by Wizards, I pick it up. If an awesome book is published by Green Ronin, I pick it up. If an awesome book is published by Joe Jenkins in his garage, I pick it up.

Just my personal opinion of course.

I like that this was a response ON a 3rd party board. Irony anyone?

***The preceeding was in no way an attempt to insult any party or drive another party to leaving these boards. Any subsequent fallout will be the soul responsibility of the offended party.***

Should have been more specific, I don't pick up many Campaign Settings. PRPG is one of the first 3rd party things I'm picking up (Exceptions being Mage: The Awakening and Dreamscarred Press stuff)

[Andrew Turner]

Vic Wertz wrote:

Teiran wrote:

Since getting the GSL early is free now, I really don't why Paizo would say no.

I've notices that quite a few people seem to think Paizo had a problem with the $5000 fee that Wizards had previously announced would be required for early access to the new SRD.

To be clear, we *never* had a problem with that, and we let Wizards know immediately that we were prepared to pay it at the appropriate time.

I'd think that's a pretty small fee, given the product. Software companies charge hundred-thousand dollar fees.

[carmachu]

crosswiredmind wrote:

People do not need to choose sides - publishers need to choose 3E or 4E. That is the only rel choice in all of this.

Technically people do. Unless your planning on playing both editions, you'll end up spending your money on that choice.

[crosswiredmind]

carmachu wrote:

crosswiredmind wrote:

People do not need to choose sides - publishers need to choose 3E or 4E. That is the only rel choice in all of this.

Technically people do. Unless your planning on playing both editions, you'll end up spending your money on that choice.

Consumers have a choice - not that they have to join a side. So, no - you do not have to choose a side.

[Dragnmoon]

Viktor_Von_Doom wrote:

PRPG is one of the first 3rd party things I'm picking up (Exceptions being Mage: The Awakening...

Way off subject.. But this hit me as something that had to be said..

Mage: The Awakening is not a third party System... It is an Idependent system called World of Darkness Storyteller system and is no way related to the WotC D20 system.

But I am sure you knew that and just misspoke ;-)

[Viktor_Von_Doom]

Dragnmoon wrote:

Viktor_Von_Doom wrote:

PRPG is one of the first 3rd party things I'm picking up (Exceptions being Mage: The Awakening...

Way off subject.. But this hit me as something that had to be said..

Mage: The Awakening is not a third party System... It is an Idependent system called World of Darkness Storyteller system and is no way related to the WotC D20 system.

But I am sure you knew that and just misspoke ;-)

Yeah it was, I really shouldn't post after waking up.

[ArchLich]

Viktor_Von_Doom wrote:

Yeah it was, I really shouldn't post after waking up.

You should post before you wake up?

:P

[Daeglin]

ArchLich wrote:

Viktor_Von_Doom wrote:

Yeah it was, I really shouldn't post after waking up.

You should post before you wake up?

:P

"Post it up before you wake-up

'Cause this thread really needs a shake up
Post it up before you wake up
Take me dancing tonight"

:D