RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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So the heroes are back at Blackwall tonight, and the place is crawling with Spawn (we played the one-shot event with the PC's as Keep soldiers last time.)
I have some questions about Spawn of Kyuss, now that I've run them once already.
1.) The DC20 Heal check to remove a worm. Can that be done every round, up until the point the PC dies and becomes a spawn? Once the thing begins eating INT, I see this as a messy affair...
2.) Creature striking a spawn with natural weapons/unarmed strike, gets infested by 1d4 worms. Can one extrapolate this to also apply if one is grappling a spawn? Or, say... if the spawn grapples one of THEM?
3.) A PC who saved against a spawn's fear aura... is he immune to the fear auras of other spawn as well or just the one he saved against?
Thanks!
So the heroes are back at Blackwall tonight, and the place is crawling with Spawn (we played the one-shot event with the PC's as Keep soldiers last time.)I have some questions about Spawn of Kyuss, now that I've run them once already.
1.) The DC20 Heal check to remove a worm. Can that be done every round, up until the point the PC dies and becomes a spawn? Once the thing begins eating INT, I see this as a messy affair...
The paragraph structure implies that one can only use the heal check up to the point where Int starts getting lost. Once Int starts getting lost your down to remove disease and remove curse.
2.) Creature striking a spawn with natural weapons/unarmed strike, gets infested by 1d4 worms. Can one extrapolate this to also apply if one is grappling a spawn? Or, say... if the spawn grapples one of THEM?
Hmm...I don't see this in the monster entry. Umm what source are you using for Spawn of Kyuss? I'm using the MMII but its possible there was a 3.5 update in one of the modules and I've just forgotten about it.
3.) A PC who saved against a spawn's fear aura... is he immune to the fear auras of other spawn as well or just the one he saved against?
In the MMII it specifies that those that make the save cannot be effected by 'that' Spawns fear aura again for 24 hours. This implies heavily that such characters could be effected by other fear auras.
2.) Creature striking a spawn with natural weapons/unarmed strike, gets infested by 1d4 worms. Can one extrapolate this to also apply if one is grappling a spawn? Or, say... if the spawn grapples one of THEM?
I made the assumption that the line in the Spawn of Kyuss entry in the EBK adventure was incorrect. It's not in the MMII, the 3.5 update or the errata. Additionally, that ability is listed as a special attack for a Favored Spawn with 10HD or more (Dragon 336).
Now the grappling idea brings in a different thought. When the spawn hits with a slam or touch attack it can transfer a worm as a free action once per round. I can see this extending to a grapple attack--either by the spawn's attempt to grapple or it's attack during a grapple.
hmmm...a PC's Touch AC during a grapple is down to 10+deflection...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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Thanks for the advice. Indeed I was using the EaBK version of the spawn, with the Dragon Ecologies book nearby just in case. I didn't even realize that the EaBK spawn was any different from the MM2 version.
Excellent session last night with the PC's facing off against one, and then three spawn in tight quarters. Here's how I ended up ruling:
1.) Heal Check. 2 were made successfully, but no worm got close enough to the brain. I like Jeremy's assessment and plan to use that logic (as soon as the brain is reached, they begin rapidly multiplying, making extraction impossible.)
2.) Grappling: I ruled as follows... the initial touch attack will transfer a worm. Once in the grapple, a successful grapple check will transfer 1d4 worms to the victim. This makes escaping the grapple high-priority.
3.) Fear: agreed, new spawn = new fear save. Also, failed save against a spawn still requires a new save if you re-enter the radius after the effect has expired.
Thanks for the advice.
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I always thought that the spawn were too weak as written, so I lessened the number of rounds that it took for a creature to turn into a spawn and added DR/bludgeoning and natural armour as if it were a regular zombie. I also gave the spawn in Blackwall Keep suits of chainmail. Made for a neat encounter, but the spawn still ended up getting trounced by my players.
I always thought that the spawn were too weak as written, so I lessened the number of rounds that it took for a creature to turn into a spawn and added DR/bludgeoning and natural armour as if it were a regular zombie. I also gave the spawn in Blackwall Keep suits of chainmail. Made for a neat encounter, but the spawn still ended up getting trounced by my players.
Probably true. Everything in MMII is basically underpowered for a 3.5 game.
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1.) Heal Check. 2 were made successfully, but no worm got close enough to the brain. I like Jeremy's assessment and plan to use that logic (as soon as the brain is reached, they begin rapidly multiplying, making extraction impossible.)
I went ahead and upped the heal check to a 25, with success or failure dealing damage (1d8 IIRC). Made for a very tense "battlefield brain surgery" scene when two feared characters got worms on them and fled into the distance, chased by the much slower cleric.
3.) Fear: agreed, new spawn = new fear save. Also, failed save against a spawn still requires a new save if you re-enter the radius after the effect has expired.
General semi-related fear question for you guys. I'm noticing that the SRD and DMG definitions of the fear conditions are different (the SRD ones are harsher, and made this encounter much more difficult for my players).
Shaken - virtually identical, no worries here
Frightened - Per DMG, the "run away" condition only lasts until you're out of sight of the fearsome thing (I assume the "hearing" clause refers to frightening sonic effects?) Does the character still act "shaken" when away from the fright source? If they do not, does regular shaken go away when out of sight? The SRD does not have the "out of sight" language...is there errata for the DMG I'm not finding which makes the SRD language correct?
Panicked - Both DMG and SRD agree that the character must flee by a "random path," though no rules exist for determining that path. How do you guys generally define the path? The SRD allows for characters to use special abilities and spells to flee, but still says they must cower if unable to flee. All characters are capable of attempting an overrun, so should this be interpreted as "can use special abilities unless that would involve moving TOWARD the source of the fear?"
The SRD also contains language in panicked that the affected character must "drop anything it holds," which the DMG lacks. Which way do most people play that?
Finally, neither the SRD nor the DMG allow for a panicked character to behave normally once away from the source of the fear. Should this be implied down from Frightened, or does my panicked Scout on open ground really run away at 160 ft/round for the full duration of the fear effect?
The Hypertext SRD site tends to include erratta in it so that may be why your noticing the difference between the SRD and the DMG.
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The Hypertext SRD site tends to include erratta in it so that may be why your noticing the difference between the SRD and the DMG.
Actually, in this case it seems to be the opposite. After more searching around on the WotC site, I found an "In the Works" article from a draft version of the 3.5 DMG with the exact same text as the SRD conditions. Looks to me like the DMG text is the newer and presumably more RAW interpretation.
I'm still really curious about how folks would answer some of my interpretation questions though. In particular, how do other groups define "by a random path," and can a panicked character act normally once out of sight from the source of their fear?
The Hypertext SRD site tends to include erratta in it so that may be why your noticing the difference between the SRD and the DMG.Actually, in this case it seems to be the opposite. After more searching around on the WotC site, I found an "In the Works" article from a draft version of the 3.5 DMG with the exact same text as the SRD conditions. Looks to me like the DMG text is the newer and presumably more RAW interpretation.
I'm still really curious about how folks would answer some of my interpretation questions though. In particular, how do other groups define "by a random path," and can a panicked character act normally once out of sight from the source of their fear?
Odd. At my table the Hypertext SRD would take precedence as it generally includes errata etc. and this appears to be an exceptional circumstance.
I'm even more inclined to stick to the SRD after reading your questions. It seems as though the DMG just leaves a lot of aspects of this up in the air while the SRD - while harsh is generally clearer.
In the case of Frightened I'd stick with the SRD version that has you continuing to move away until the effect that caused you to become frightened wears off. The Frightened condition basically only comes about becuase of magic so having one keep leaving is not usually problematic.
If one is panicked I'd generally force them to take the easiest path away from whatever is panicking them. I'd resort to a random determination method if there are multiple options that are all basically just as good. The SRD does not allow one to take any action but flee. Overrunning is an action. I'd not allow a voluntary overrun except in exceptional circumstances like stampedes or Dinosaurs trampling something small (like a PC) as it exits stage left.
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The SRD does not allow one to take any action but flee. Overrunning is an action.
Not true. Even from the SRD: "A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee." A spell is not a move action, therefore a fleeing character is capable of taking standard actions if they would allow the character to escape.
The Frightened condition basically only comes about becuase of magic so having one keep leaving is not usually problematic.
I'm not clear how magic makes it problematic or not. In an isolated encounter, running away forever is annoying, but okay. In a dungeon encounter, a frightened/panicked character is likely to flee directly into uncleared portions of the dungeon, pissing off the other inhabitants. As such, that interpretation of a fear aura makes it very likely that failing to save will dial up the CR of the encounter significantly.
The SRD does not allow one to take any action but flee. Overrunning is an action.Not true. Even from the SRD: "A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee." A spell is not a move action, therefore a fleeing character is capable of taking standard actions if they would allow the character to escape.
Well it states you can't take any actions but flee and then specifies that you can actions like spells if that involves fleeing. So it seems to contradict itself, my feeling is that you can't take any actions unless that action allows you to more effectively flee.
The Frightened condition basically only comes about becuase of magic so having one keep leaving is not usually problematic.I'm not clear how magic makes it problematic or not. In an isolated encounter, running away forever is annoying, but okay. In a dungeon encounter, a frightened/panicked character is likely to flee directly into uncleared portions of the dungeon, pissing off the other inhabitants. As such, that interpretation of a fear aura makes it very likely that failing to save will dial up the CR of the encounter significantly.
Sure - I could see one fleeing into an uncleared part of the dungeon and possibly dialling up the CR of an encounter. Thats a possibility, yes.
...a frightened/panicked character is likely to flee directly into uncleared portions of the dungeon...
Isn't a frightened/panicked character MORE likely to flee to the known exit (ie, the way he came in)? I understand that path may be blocked, but if I'm being chased by worm-infested undead I think I'm going to head for the front door rather than hope for an escape route in the basement.
Of course, thoughts like these make me immediately want to create an OOTS-style encounter where a bunch of fear-aura critters lurk around a trapped door conveniently marked "WAY OUT"... ;-)
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Isn't a frightened/panicked character MORE likely to flee to the known exit (ie, the way he came in)? I understand that path may be blocked, but if I'm being chased by worm-infested undead I think I'm going to head for the front door rather than hope for an escape route in the basement.
Frightened...sure. Panicked character explicitly "flee by a random path" which sounds like a 50% chance of running deeper.
As far as random path goes, from the basement, the only real paths of escape are the stairs.
Unless you're playing a warlock who has Flee the Scene, which one of my players is. Pretty appropriate ability for having failed that fear save, imho. She ended up using it to run and dimension door outside of the keep until the effect faded. Pretty amusing.
More amusing, however...
[threadjack]
I was using the slightly harsher ruling that when grappled, 1d4 worms are automatically applied. My players were already paranoid against using touch/natural attacks from seeing what happened to the eggs in the Twisted Branch lair(having a dozen nasty miniature crocodiles with worms crawling out of their eyes trying to bite you will leave an impresssion on most anyone.) One of my players is playing a modified swordsage/rogue hybrid, and was hit on multiple occasions with worms. His solutions for removing them before they burrowed?
1) After having several worms on him as a result of a successful bull rush(went with the same ruling as grappling, especially since he failed his opposed roll so spectacularly) he used a maneuver that produced a small cone of flame....on himself.
2) After being grappled, and seeing that he has worms crawling on him, the druid casts a flaming sphere and has it leap onto him.
3) After escaping the grapple, and with more worms on him, he threw himself upon the flaming sphere.
4) After having a chance to recover his expended maneuvers, he gets grappled yet again, and cones himself again.
5) Finally, after getting grappled one last time, and unable to remove the worms from himself, the cleric begins experimenting with spells to try to remove the worms as they burrow towards his brain. Luckily, the cleric did have remove disease, and he did not become a spawn of Kyuss.
[/threadjack]
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[threadjack]
** spoiler omitted **
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Too awesome. My group's story is pretty good as well, and lead to my questions about fear effects. And you're absolutely right about the stairs being the only way out...
The 5 of them head down into the basement, and the guards get to work re-barricading the door. They spread out a bit to figure out which room the undeads are hiding in. Sorcerer pops the right door, 3 spawn = 3 will saves all around. Only the sorcerer and cleric save. The aura causes "frightened" not "panicked," so they just want to get as far away as fast as possible. I had no idea the SRD was different from the DMG, so they had to keep fleeing for the full duration. I roll max duration.
Scout is off light a lightning bolt, gets to the top of the stairs, and starts pounding on the door, screaming and begging to be let back out. Guards freak and start looking for more things to pile on the barricade. Rogue catches a flung worm to the face, then runs for the stairs as well, unable to deal with the worm burrowing into him. Fighter clanks along behind. Sorcerer dumps AOE onto two of the spawn while the cleric works on the third, so the sorcerer also gets worm infected while hoping to drop them quickly.
Scout's at the door screaming "Let me out. I'll kill you! I'll kill your children if you don't let me out!" Fighter clomps up from behind and bashes the door open. Scout blows out the front door into a full run (40 foot movement + not hindered by terrain). By the time the fear ran out, she was about 1/6 a mile away...fighter and rogue continue to flee, while the worm burrowed it's way toward the rogue's brain.
Cleric chases 2 turned and wounded Spawn around the complex, hitting them with Spiritual Weapon and conjured creatures. I completely forgot the Spawn's fast healing, or there's no way he would have won...in time, at least. Sorcerer kills the last one, then tries a "disrupt undead" against himself to kill the worm, it's vermin, so no effect. He remembers (incorrectly) that the fighter has a potion that might help, so he runs off after the slower fighter hoping to get the imaginary potion. The guard's morale completely breaks after they see 3 "heroes" come tearing out of the basement, followed by a 4th screaming "It's in my head, it's in my head! Get it out!"
Cleric, all by his lonesome, deals with the spawn (because I forgot about the healing) and runs off to find his friends. He catches up with the sorcerer in time for a dramatic battlefield brain surgery to cut it out with 3 int to spare. Rogue had a much higher base int, and got rescued with a whopping 8 int.
Scout finally made it back after being pulled out of combat for a total of 14 rounds by fear (8 fleeing, 6 returning). She later bought potions of remove fear, only to be panicked by the next fearful thing and discover that per SRD, panicked characters can't hold anything. I think she hates me now ;)
Too awesome. My group's story is pretty good as well, and lead to my questions about fear effects. And you're absolutely right about the stairs being the only way out...[spoiler]
Wow thats a great story.