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I've been thinking about what would make a cool combat feat and I want to get your oppinions. Yeah, it does get a bit complicated, but that complication is also what makes this attack special(and less likely to be abused) as well as a great signature opening move for a character.
Mortal Draw
Prerequisits: Quick Draw, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus(any melee), BAB 12, Power Attack
You stand fast as your enemy approaches, thinking you a fool for not having drawn your weapon. Once within your reach, you draw and strike in a single swift motion, catching your opponent off guard and dealing massive damage.
Benefit: Once per encounter, if your weapon is sheathed, you may perform a full-round action to deal a great deal of damage and leave your target flat-footed untill the end of his next turn. You start by making a Bluff check(you may use your BAB if that is higher) which is opposed by your opponents Sense Motive Check.Success means your weapon deals Double Full Damage(a +1 Longsword weilded by a character with a STR 15 would deal 16(two full d8's )+6(twice 1-1/2 STR Mod)+2(doubled Enhancement bonus) for a total of 24 points, for example), including all modifiers to damage you may have, and your opponent is flat-footed untill the end of his turn next round.
Failure of the check by less than 5 points means you Full Damage including all modifiers to damage(that same character and weapon would deal 8(one full d8)+3(STR mod)+1(Enhancement bonus) for 12 points of damage.), but you still consider the target Flat-Footed for the purposes of this attack only.
Failing the check by more than 5 points means the target is not Flat-Footed at all, but is otherwise the same as failing the check by less than 5 points.
Critical damage is as follows:
Succeeded Bluff check- Extra dice are double full possible value.
Failure by less than 5- Extra dice are full possible value.
Failure by more than 5- Roll extra dice as normalDual wielded weapons follow their rules, each dealing their own damage and modified seperately and simultaneously.
This attack may trigger the Cleave and Great Cleave feats, but any subsequent attack does not gain any increased damage from this feat.
I tried to make it so that its very powerful, and requires a lot to qualify for, but is not the be-all end-all attack. It also requires a minimum BAB of 12 so that its possible for characters with either the Good or Best BAB to qualify for it. But they can't get it untill at least 60% through their non-Epic adventuring career.
So, how crazy do all of you think I am for thinking up such a feat?
Mortal Draw
Prerequisits: Quick Draw, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus(any melee), BAB 12, Power Attack
You might want to add Flick of the Wrist(Complete Warrior) to the prerequisites, and using those mechanisms for determining how the attacker becomes flat footed.
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Well, it seems yesterday did not agree with me posting when I got in. Too bad. Here's the modified feet. Any opinions?
Mortal Draw
Prerequisits: Quick Draw, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus(any melee), BAB 12, DEX 15, Power Attack
You stand fast as your enemy approaches, thinking you a fool for not having drawn your weapon. Once within your reach, you draw and strike in a single swift motion, catching your opponent off guard and dealing massive damage.
Benefit: Once per encounter, if your weapon is sheathed, you may perform a full-round action to deal a great deal of damage and leave your target flat-footed for the duration of this round. You start by making a Bluff check(you may use your BAB if that is higher) which is opposed by your opponents Sense Motive Check.Success means your weapon deals Double Full Damage(a +1 Longsword weilded by a character with a STR 15 would deal 16(two full d8's )+6(twice 1-1/2 STR Mod)+2(doubled Enhancement bonus) for a total of 24 points, for example), including all modifiers to damage you may have, and your opponent is flat-footed until the end of the round.
Failure of the check means you Full Damage including all modifiers to damage(that same character and weapon would deal 8(one full d8)+3(STR mod)+1(Enhancement bonus) for 12 points of damage.).
Critical Damage is rolled as normal.
Dual wielded weapons follow their rules, each dealing their own damage and modified seperately and simultaneously.
This attack may trigger the Cleave and Great Cleave feats, but any attack subsequent to Mortal Draw does not gain any increased damage from this feat.
Very nice, I do like this new feat, I have a fighter in my group and I know he will like it as well, Lucky for him im the DM, and with some of the things I have them fighting against this would come in handy.
Benefit: Once per encounter, if your weapon is sheathed, you may perform a full-round action to deal a great deal of damage and leave your target flat-footed for the duration of this round. You start by making a Bluff check(you may use your BAB if that is higher) which is opposed by your opponents Sense Motive Check.
Seems to flow a bit better now, the only real problem I see with it is that you are attacking with a bluff check. Not sure how to fix that and keep the flavour though.
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Seems to flow a bit better now, the only real problem I see with it is that you are attacking with a bluff check. Not sure how to fix that and keep the flavour though.
Benefit: Once per encounter, if your weapon is sheathed, you may perform a full-round action to deal a great deal of damage and leave your target flat-footed for the duration of this round. You start by making a Bluff check(you may use your BAB if that is higher) which is opposed by your opponents Sense Motive Check.
Ahh, thanks, I've overlooked that. It was not intended to be an attack made with a Bluff check, but a Bluff check that comes before the attack roll. The Bluff check is simply there to determine whether or not the opponent is caught off guard.
I'll be altering this when I get a chance.
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Mortal Draw
Prerequisits: Quick Draw, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus(any melee), BAB 12, DEX 15, Power Attack
You stand fast as your enemy approaches, thinking you a fool for not having drawn your weapon. Once within your reach, you draw and strike in a single swift motion, catching your opponent off guard and dealing massive damage.
Benefit: Once per encounter, if your weapon is sheathed, you may perform a full-round action to deal a great deal of damage and leave your target flat-footed for the duration of this round. You start by making a Bluff check(you may use your BAB if that is higher) which is opposed by your opponent's Sense Motive Check. This is followed by your attack roll.Success means that on a successful attack, your weapon deals Double Full Damage(a +1 Longsword weilded by a character with a STR 15 would deal 16(two full d8's )+6(twice 1-1/2 STR Mod)+2(doubled Enhancement bonus) for a total of 24 points, for example), including all modifiers to damage you may have, and your opponent is flat-footed until the end of the round.
Failure of the check means that on a successfull attack, you Full Damage including all modifiers to damage(that same character and weapon would deal 8(one full d8)+3(STR mod)+1(Enhancement bonus) for 12 points of damage.).
Once the Bluff/Sense Motive checks have been resolved, the attack roll is then made at your highest Base Attack Bonus.
Critical Damage is rolled as normal.
Dual wielded weapons follow their rules, each dealing their own damage and modified seperately and simultaneously.
This attack may trigger the Cleave and Great Cleave feats, but any attack subsequent to Mortal Draw does not gain any increased damage from this feat.
Hopefully that should clear up the confusion.
That looks fine; one (hopefully final) nitpick though:
and your opponent is flat-footed until the end of the round.
Should the attacker be flat-footed vs the PC only or vs ALL combatants?
OK, I know I said I wouldnt nitpick any more, but this is more of a query: what would happen to extra damage die from sneak attack/skirmish ability? Or from weapon special abilities. Does it also double? prob best to not allow that as it would otherwise be open to a lot of punishment by a high level rogue.
Have you thought about putting a backdraw on this feat. For somthing that is as powerfull as this can be, it would make sense to me to say that a person would be fatigued after using this attack. Maybe you can use his Constitution to determin how long or if he even becomes fatigued. Or you can make fatigue part of what happens if he fails his bluff check. Just some food for thought.
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OK, I know I said I wouldnt nitpick any more, but this is more of a query: what would happen to extra damage die from sneak attack/skirmish ability? Or from weapon special abilities. Does it also double? prob best to not allow that as it would otherwise be open to a lot of punishment by a high level rogue.
Good catch. Although, Sneak Attack is extra damage from knowing where and/or how to hit the opponent, not from the weapon, so it does not get made double or full. This does not mean, however, that Sneak Attack damage does not potentially apply to this attack, as the opponent can potentially be considered Flat Footed.
Weapon special abilities on the other hand, is iffy, and will require consideration. If its a poison special ability, then no, it shouldn't get max damage. Things like Flaming Burst, however, I'm uncertain. Probably not, but there's still room to argue pro to con.
By the way, continue to nitpick. I prefer to not leave loopholes.
Have you thought about putting a backdraw on this feat. For somthing that is as powerfull as this can be, it would make sense to me to say that a person would be fatigued after using this attack. Maybe you can use his Constitution to determin how long or if he even becomes fatigued. Or you can make fatigue part of what happens if he fails his bluff check. Just some food for thought.
Well, the fact that the character is unarmed untill the attack is made is a drawback, not counting those characters who have Improved Unarmed. The fact that this attack itself is a full-round action means the only move this character can perform is a 5-foot step. I have been considering to allow the character to move five feet in any direction when making this attack.
The primary drawback, however, is the limited number of situations in which it is actually usefull. Its basicly only an opening move. The only situations I can see it as being useful are as follows.
- Being jumped in an unfamiliar setting by bandits/thugs, with one trying to shake you/your party down.
- A rapidly degrading social encounter.
- A social encounter being used as a facade to disguise the fact you're about to attack.
- Having just arrived on the scene where bandits/thugs are shaking others down.
- Getting caught as you're sneaking about trying to talk down the person who caught you that you've simply gotten lost trying to find the nearest chamberpot.
I don't seeing it work in a situation in which you've already engaged in combat, unless you are faking a surrender, in which case, its likely not your primary weapon(and therefore, not your most effective) you're attempting to use.
I don't seeing it working when you sneak up behind someone, as you have to bluff them into believing you're not going to attack; well, starting a random conversation with a guard is fairly contrary to the act of sneaking about.
Sorry, but such a "feat" already exsists; it's known as Iajutsu. Drawing your weapon and striking with it in the same motion...
Check Oriental Adventures book for Iajutsu Focus. It's a skill (CHA based).
Works basically the same way, but not as overpowering. If you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing your weapon, you make an Iajutsu Focus check. The higher your check, the more additional damage you deal. I won't post the check to damage ratios, but you can max out at +9d6.
Sidenote - The skill also works for striking inanimate objects, you just cut the damage dealt in half.
-Kurocyn
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Your original flavour text described an opponent being lulled into a false sense of security and bravado by your 'defenceless' stance. I think I see the image you are aiming for; the scene in 'Seven Samurai' where the kensai reluctantly accepts a challenge from a local tough, who leaves himself wide open to a mortal blow.
One problem I see is that it is a full attack action; therefore, cannot be used as a readied action, only a delayed action.
This means that you cannot interrupt an attacker who tires of your conversation, or who rushes you, thinking you unarmed.
You have to withstand their attack attempt, and then make a single strike back.
Even allowing that you make a single powerful attack for maxed double damage, you may still be better off (depending on the opponent's AC)simply performing a Quick Draw, then clobbering him with your 3 regular attacks?
I think it needs to be reduced to a readied standard action, in order to perform in the way it is intended, which would still remove the potential of performing iterative attacks, whilst allowing for a move action before or after the strike (to meet the attacker half-way, or to drop him and run from his allies).
Thoughts?
Your original flavour text described an opponent being lulled into a false sense of security and bravado by your 'defenceless' stance. I think I see the image you are aiming for; the scene in 'Seven Samurai' where the kensai reluctantly accepts a challenge from a local tough, who leaves himself wide open to a mortal blow.
One problem I see is that it is a full attack action; therefore, cannot be used as a readied action, only a delayed action.
This means that you cannot interrupt an attacker who tires of your conversation, or who rushes you, thinking you unarmed.
You have to withstand their attack attempt, and then make a single strike back.
Even allowing that you make a single powerful attack for maxed double damage, you may still be better off (depending on the opponent's AC)simply performing a Quick Draw, then clobbering him with your 3 regular attacks?I think it needs to be reduced to a readied standard action, in order to perform in the way it is intended, which would still remove the potential of performing iterative attacks, whilst allowing for a move action before or after the strike (to meet the attacker half-way, or to drop him and run from his allies).
Thoughts?
I've been following this thread since the start and I didn't have anything else to say but; cool! Now Snorter brings up an interesting point that was floating in my head yesterday. What about using this feat in combination with Hold the Line? Obviously it would only work once per encounter but the fluff certainly fits between these two feats.
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Ahh, Seven Samurai. I've been trying to get ahold of that around here for a while. I have yet to actually see it, although I do know the basic storyline. Its up there on my to-see list alongside Rashomon.
Anyway, I like the idea of making it a readied standard action, and had forgotten that you couldn't ready full-round actions. That does fit my idea of the use of Mortal Draw. Thanks.
On an unrelated note, the part that took me the longest to think up before finally posting it here wasn't any of the numbers or the basic function. I just couldn't think of a good name for it...
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Quick, mention another good yet somewhat obscure movie I may like. :)
The Happiness of the Katakuris?
My girlfriend suggests you may like Gozu, but from her description of it (and this review) it appears you would have to be some sort of head case. :)
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My girlfriend suggests you may like Gozu, but from her description of it (and this review) it appears you would have to be some sort of head case. :)
Hmm... Gozu...
it appears you would have to be some sort of head case. :)
PERFECT! :P
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I've been following this thread since the start and I didn't have anything else to say but; cool! Now Snorter brings up an interesting point that was floating in my head yesterday. What about using this feat in combination with Hold the Line? Obviously it would only work once per encounter but the fluff certainly fits between these two feats.
I don't see why Mortal Draw can't be used in an attack of opportunity. However, once you've begun to fight, its used as normal.
Mortal Draw
Prerequisits: Quick Draw, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus(any melee), BAB 12, DEX 15, Power AttackYou stand fast as your enemy approaches, thinking you a fool for not having readied your weapon. Once within your reach, you draw and strike in a single swift motion, catching your opponent off guard and dealing massive damage.
Benefit: Once per encounter, if your weapon is unreadied, you may used a readied standard action that is not part of a full-round attack to deal a great deal of damage and leave your target flat-footed for the duration of this round. You start by making a Bluff check(you may add your highest BAB as a bonus to this) which is opposed by your opponent's Sense Motive Check. An opponent who has already been attacked durring this encounter gains a +5 circumstance bonus to his or her Sense Motive check. This is followed by your attack roll.
Success means that on a successful attack, your weapon deals Double Full Damage(a +1 Longsword weilded by a character with a STR 15 would deal 16(two full d8's )+6(twice 1-1/2 STR Mod)+2(doubled Enhancement bonus) for a total of 24 points, for example), including all modifiers to damage you may have, and your opponent is flat-footed until the end of the round.
Failure of the check means that on a successfull attack, you Full Damage including all modifiers to damage(that same character and weapon would deal 8(one full d8)+3(STR mod)+1(Enhancement bonus) for 12 points of damage.).
Once the Bluff/Sense Motive checks have been resolved, the attack roll is then made at your highest Base Attack Bonus.
Critical damage and Sneak Attack damage is rolled as normal.
Dual wielded and double weapons both may be drawn simultaneously and both can be used to attack, but only one weapon/end may be used with this attack(whichever weapon/end is used first).
This attack may trigger the Cleave and Great Cleave feats, but any attack subsequent to Mortal Draw does not gain any increased damage from this feat.
This attack may be used as part of an Attack of Opportunity, if all the other normal conditions are met.
Edits:
Text changed to reflect weapons which cannot be sheathed and/or weapons which you would normally carry in your hands but not always hold in a threatening manner(such as a spear held across your shoulder).Bluff check now gets a bonus from the character's highest BAB instead of one or the other.
Added a circumstance bonus to the opponent's Sense Motive check if he/she has been in combat already durring that encounter(but the character performing Mortal Draw has not).
Added the allowance of AoO.
Changed the use of dual weilding and double weapons to keep people from instantly reaching the massive damage threshold, while still allowing them to be used.
Iaido's fun. For a different take on this kind of manoeuvre, see Oriental Adventures/Rokugan d20/Legend of the Five Rings RPG. (It's called Iaijutsu there)
Have a friend or two who study Iaido (it's always fun to annoy them by calling it Iaijutsu. Surefire way to get a lecture about how the Japanese call their martial arts -do now, not -jutsu, because it's an art, not just a sport).
I give you, the iaijutsu focus skill from Oriental Adventures is for Iaijutsu Duels, where two people face off, and is highly ritualised, but you can also use it in a fight, in certain circumstances (must be the beginning of the fight - and you must draw the weapon and strike in the same round, against a flat-footed enemy). You make a iaijutsu focus roll, and depending on the roll, you get extra d6s of damage.
There's also a PrC in there for iaido masters (Kakita Duelist, if you want to know).
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I give you, the iaijutsu focus skill from Oriental Adventures is for Iaijutsu Duels, where two people face off, and is highly ritualised, but you can also use it in a fight, in certain circumstances (must be the beginning of the fight - and you must draw the weapon and strike in the same round, against a flat-footed enemy). You make a iaijutsu focus roll, and depending on the roll, you get extra d6s of damage.
How would either combatant in a duel be flat-footed?
They're both aware of each other, they've discussed the terms of the challenge, they're both holding a readied action.
In fact, in many examples, the superior swordsman is seen as the one who waits for the opponent to move first, so as to read his intent.
Yah I really like this feat Cato. It's got that Yojimbo feel to it.
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Any luck finding a copy of Gozu, yet? :)
Nope. Guess it was a once in a while kind of thing.
By the way, does anyone still feel this is unbalanced?
My earlier complaint aside, what I would change about the feat is the fact that you're getting a free critial hit and then some out of it. I don't know of any effect that allows you to do "max" damage (not accounting for spells and the like).
Allowing for extra damage is the point of the technique after all, but dealing max damage? Why not just make the strike deal an automatic critial hit? Much more cut and dry. Easy to explain, easy to work with.
Yes, certain things will become immune to the attack, but those same critters would more than likely be immune to any sort of extra damage this maneuver would do.
Plus you'd be getting more out of weapons with high crit multipliers as opposed to larger dice. Afterall, certain weapons are more suited for such attacks and would logically ( Holy molten lava Batman! He said the word "LOGICAL" in a D&D thread!!!1one ) be better for this feat.
Also, I would award either a bonus/penalty to the bluff check based off the weapon's size. Obviously, if I'm attacking a dude with a greataxe or scythe, I'm not just going to rush blindly at him and assume he's NOT going to use it. Whereas, if he has a sheathed rapier or sword, I'd be more inclined to the thought that I can strike before he can draw his weapon. Maybe have large weapons give a -2, medium a +0, small and under a +2?
This ties in with the feel of the feat I think.
-Kurocyn
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Yeah, I understand the concern about max damage, and have actually considered using additional hit dice as mentioned earlier, but they don't seems to work well with the concept that this is a feat that you can't even pick up untill 12th level at the earliest.
Yes, it is basicly trading in multiple hits for a single critical.
Eh, maybe I should go back to square one.