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My friend, whose work blocks him from Paizo.com (alas!), asked me to put up these ideas:
As it is now, after 1st level, your race doesn't really matter all that much. What if there was a scaling ability for races?
His first idea would be abilities you gain at higher levels:
1st: Normal bonuses.
4th: Constant exercise, and trying to keep pace with the rest of their
surroundings has caused their natural stamina to increase, giving them
the Endurance feat.
8th: Further conditioning has given them an additional +2 racial bonus
to Constitution.
12: Their experiences have caused their muscles to become dense and
resilient, giving them DR 1/-. This DR stacks with other forms of DR,
such as a Barbarians DR, or a 19th level Fighter.
16: Dwarven physiology becomes even more resilient to unnatural
influences. They gain SR equal to their character Level.
20: Becoming even more dense and stone like, their DR increases to 2/-
His second idea was a set of feats a race can gain at certain levels. Like this:
Dwarven Health
Prerequisite: Dwarf level 1
You gain a one time bonus to your hit points equal to twice your
constitution modifier, with a minimum of 4. The Racial Feat stacks with
itself.
Dwarven Resistance
Prerequisite: Dwarf level 3
Your natural resistances begin to peak. Double your normal save bonuses
against Poison, Spells, and spell like abilities.
Dwarven Rock
Prerequisite: Dwarf Level 1
Your racial modifier to resist combat maneuvers is doubled.
Dwarven Stone Affinity
Prerequisite: Dwarf Level 5
Any spell or spell like ability with the Earth descriptor is cast at +1
caster level, and any associated DC's to resist are also increased by 1
Increased Dwarven Stone Affinity
Prerequisite: Dwarf level 9, Dwarven Stone Affinity
Choose a metamagic feat that you already know. When using it to modify a
spell with the Earth descriptor, reduce the level adjustment by one.
Dwarven Strength
Prerequisite: Dwarf level 5
While underground, or otherwise surrounded by stone and earth (heart of
a mountain, elemental plane of earth) you gain a +2 bonus to strength.
This ability is lost anytime the character is not in contact with the
ground, or what can be considered the ground in planar cases.
Heart of the Dwarven Lord
Prerequisite: Dwarf level 13, leadership
You are a legend to your people. You gain a +4 bonus to your leadership
score as long as all your cohorts and followers are dwarves.
Blessing of the Earth Mother
Prerequisite: Dwarven level 3
While sleeping in direct contact with 2 feet of earth or 1 foot of
stone, you heal at 3 times your normal rate. This is not affected by the
heal skills long term care unless a DC 25 check is made, or a DC 15
check if made by a Dwarf with the healing skill.
Thoughts? :)
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My friend, whose work blocks him from Paizo.com (alas!), asked me to put up these ideas:
I like the idea of racial feats, if there are a number to choose from at any given level. Otherwise, they might as well just be added racial features. Either way, I would love to see this included in the Pathfinder RPG! Race does matter as-is in 3.5, but it could matter a lot more :D
Edit: or, for racial feats, would these just be extra feats you'd have to spend a normal feat slot for? If so, it's an interesting idea that a particular dwarf could sacrifice other potential achievements to be more ... dwarfy.
Just out of curiosity, why would races "improve" over an adventuring career?
I find it hard to believe that adventuring as a fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric, etc., will make an elf more "elfy" or a dwarf more "dwarven", or even a human more "human".
How do you become "more" of your race than you are at the start?
I know part of the 4E racial bit was geared toward making races matter, but I don't see the rational beyond "let's give even more cool powers!"
I'm interested in how people would justify making the races matter (beyond the obvious ability score bonuses, skill bonuses, and default racial abilities) in a rational, believable manner.
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I'm interested in how people would justify making the races matter (beyond the obvious ability score bonuses, skill bonuses, and default racial abilities) in a rational, believable manner.
I'm thinking specifically things that play into the flavor of the race. For example, elves get longbow proficiency for free at creation. Why not, as the character grows and improves, an increasing bonus with the longbow or free feats that would apply to longbow to reflect the elf's affinity for the weapon? I'd prefer additions along these lines than racial feats or features that would cause a race's abilities to branch out in various new directions.
i love the idea of becomming more dwarfy, or elfy, or half-orcy.
every single one of us possesseses skills and abilities that we didnt posses years ago. why cant our characters learn something new about being a dwarf or elf as their lives continue? some skill that is encoded into the dna of an elf, just needs the right amount of heat, or instruction to bring it about.
it would be more cool to get to choose a racial advancement, rather than just having a list by level. then you could make your character even more your character.
I'm with modus0. It's a long rivalry I've had back from the old days when high CR monsters were turned into classes so you could play wimped out versions of them at first level for the sake of game balance (over reason). I think it's fun mechanically, and certainly I don't hate that one half of your character doesn't just stop doing anything after first level--but I think turning your race into a prestige class is maybe the wrong direction to go.
It reminds me of when I used to flip through the Rules Cyclopedia and laugh that "Elf" and "Dwarf" and "Halfling" were classes. Now it seems like we're going BACK there! Weird.
It's an interesting idea to mull over, and I'm sure you could do something interesting with it. I'm just not sure the solution on the table is the only way to get it.
What I would really love would be something simple in the mechanics that would make an elven ranger or wizard different from a dwarven, human, or half-orc one. Something that makes it so that race and class come together and make something whole and different from both--like Kool-Aid powder and Water, each element adds something to a combined whole. I think that's what we're really looking for--a grumpy dwarven woodsman cranking open a big rusty beartrap, axe over one shoulder. Meanwhile, lightstepping through the branches above, his guille suited elven companion peers through the impenetrable folliage keeping an eye on the approaching chimera that's been hunting them both, flashing down the distance in tracker sign in the dwarf's peripheral vison.
See. They're both rangers--but wow there's a difference. Now if only we could come up with some nice easy mechanics to peg them on to. That kind of thing I would REALLY go for.
I could go for a few, granted a few, racial feats as well.
It reminds me of when I used to flip through the Rules Cyclopedia and laugh that "Elf" and "Dwarf" and "Halfling" were classes. Now it seems like we're going BACK there! Weird.
I remember that actually, playing an "Elf", it worked, it was fun & simple. It was along time ago!
I like it a lot!*
It'd be like expanding the idea of racial paragons without forcing the player to take a level from a different class.
*Of course, I also like psionics and ninjas. :P
Actually, before Paizo announced the Pathfinder RPG, I was planning on using Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might and designing some "racial progressions" to make races more than just tiny modifiers (as they are in many MMOs). Something along the lines of a member of a certain race gaining new racial abilities as he rises in class levels.
I'm not really keen on racial feats as normal feats because that means the character has to sacrifice a feat slot that could be used for something else. However, if these racial feats were granted to the character at certain levels in addition to normal feats, I think it would work pretty well (and it would be very much like what I was planning). Perhaps every five levels the character gets a choice between a few racial feats that help define him as a member of his race.
EDIT: I forgot to say that I like the first idea in Mike's post too.
The racial level substitutions in some of the 3.5 books had good things like this.
For example: Instead of smiting evil, half-orc paladins could take a thing that let them go into a 'righteous fury', gaining a flat bonus on damage rolls (not just against evil creatures) but not as powerful as a full-blown rage. As they leveled up, they'd get longer righteous furies, more damage, and (maybe, I can't remember) more per day.
I like the idea of racial feats and/or prestige classes, but I'd rather not see racial traits that automatically increase with level. This allows a character to focuses on his or her racial strengths to excel at them but also lets characters who take another path remain unique. It'd be a shame if an elf who spent most of his life among humans suddenly developed distinctly elven traits even if there were no other elves around to model or inspire them or if the elf was not interested in pursuing his cultural heritage.
I really like the flavor of your friend's ideas, Mike. I could definitely see taking some of those as feats -- especially the earth magic abilities and the Heart of the Dwarven Lord. Well done.
What I would really love would be something simple in the mechanics that would make an elven ranger or wizard different from a dwarven, human, or half-orc one. Something that makes it so that race and class come together and make something whole and different from both--like Kool-Aid powder and Water, each element adds something to a combined whole. I think that's what we're really looking for--a grumpy dwarven woodsman cranking open a big rusty beartrap, axe over one shoulder. Meanwhile, lightstepping through the branches above, his guille suited elven companion peers through the impenetrable folliage keeping an eye on the approaching chimera that's been hunting them both, flashing down the distance in tracker sign in the dwarf's peripheral vison.
See. They're both rangers--but wow there's a difference. Now if only we could come up with some nice easy mechanics to peg them on to. That kind of thing I would REALLY go for.
I would think this could be solved by allowing races to have a few abilities to choose from, much akin to the racial feats from above. As long as the "racial feats" are varied and each unique to that particular race, this would allow a good deal of custimization. Of course, I also like the level based progression as well due to the ease of bookeeping.
Well, I think that if you want to use every new ideas that come from 4E in Pathfinder you will have a lot of problems to sell it to your current customer base (who don't really like change from 3.5E) and probably have some lawsuits from WOTC too... My 2 cents...
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I was very excited at the beginning of 4e when they said that races would matter into the high levels. The way I thought it should be done was to include in the racial descriptions, racial traits that "unlock" at higher levels. I was thinking 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th.
An elf, for example, could gain Woodland Stride at 5th level, so good old Legolas can walk on snow. You could further add that if the elf already has that ability at 5th level, they then instead gain a +1 caster level as a Druid, or some such thing. That way you get synergy between races and classes.
I find it hard to believe that adventuring as a fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric, etc., will make an elf more "elfy" or a dwarf more "dwarven", or even a human more "human".I know part of the 4E racial bit was geared toward making races matter, but I don't see the rational beyond "let's give even more cool powers!"
I agree with both these points.
rather than a whole slew of racial feats and powers, why not focus on one or two special abilities that each race might get? That ability would gradually get stronger as the character progressed.
For example, an elf's prime strength is their archery or magic so could either have the DC of their spells increase as they level (more so than a non elf) or their skill with bows increase. Perhaps giving them precise shot or spell mastery as a free feat?
Dwarves could benefit from endurance or Diehard (diehard would work well for half orcs too) Balance out the lack of progression perhaps with a few more hit points per level. Dwarves are renowned for their toughness after all
Halflings could perhaps benefit from a similar bonus as elves. Give them a ranged bonus with their slings, or a bonus to stealth
Gnomes could get a few more magical abilities, perhaps ones that are actually useful, with possibly quicken spell as a free feat (without the higher spell slot cost). they might not be more stronger magically, but its in their blood so they cast spells just a bit quicker than others
Just a thought, but something along these lines is what I'd be interested in if a change to the races would be made
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I'm also going to lean towards the idea of racial substitution levels on this one. Wouldn't have to be something in the core book, but could certainly be explored in expansion books. I always enjoyed things like the elven paladin, who while still growing as a paladin in most ways could trade off some of his normal on a level to gain something like 'ranged smite' because of his natural affinity with the bow.
It seems a very good balance for something like what grimcleaver was talking about, not having you build your race like it was a prestige class, but still letting it matter when you are taking classes, especially those suited to your races strengths.
Contributor
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I personally agree with mike's friend, that one of these things should be done. There is part of me that feels it should be worked right into the race, because that just feels right.
OTOH, Racial feats would give more options as time went on (because more feats could be created), and more customization, and particularly would allow you to choose racial options that suit your class.
Racial Substitution levels are a cool mechanic. But I'm pretty sure they aren't OGL.
I find it hard to believe that adventuring as a fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric, etc., will make an elf more "elfy" or a dwarf more "dwarven", or even a human more "human".
I do not see it so much making a character more "elfy" as improving a character in a way that only an elf would improve, or more realistically, in a way that an elf was more 'likely' to improve. You are still just as much an Elf as you were to begin with, you are just a better Elf. Which is better in a different way than a Human would become a better Human.
Different races would grow in different ways.
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My friend, whose work blocks him from Paizo.com (alas!), asked me to put up these ideas:
His second idea was a set of feats a race can gain at certain levels. Like this:
I think this is more backwards compatible. The racial sourcebooks from WOTC (races of stone ....) gave this feats. Having a higher feat ratio in Pathfinder RPG it can be possible.
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I have never seen any of these options as "dwarves get more dwarven," but rather "a dwarven fighter may focus on things a human fighter does not, and can take advantages of his unique physiology and social conditioning to accomplish things a human fighter cannot."
It makes just as much sense to me as a Dwarven defender PrC, which other races can't take, but on a smaller scale.
I can alkso easily see spells for each race, because they can tap into things other races just -can't-.
I do think you need to look out for power creep, but at the same time you don't want to make racial characters have to choose between colorful racial options, and useful things any other member of their class is assumed to have by a given level. And THAT is a tricky balancing act. I have found racial substitutions for class abilites does this fairly well.
What would this change bring to the table that isn't already covered by the Racial Paragon Classes in UA/SRD? From reading the first post, it seems (to me) that the goal could be accomplished by just adding additional levels (and thus benefits/powers) to the already existent paragon classes.
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What would this change bring to the table that isn't already covered by the Racial Paragon Classes in UA/SRD? From reading the first post, it seems (to me) that the goal could be accomplished by just adding additional levels (and thus benefits/powers) to the already existent paragon classes.
This seems to be the easiest way to address this. I think race at higher levels should be a function of roleplaying. A dwarf fighter is different from a human fighter because of how they look and act. If you really need to be more dwarf, take a level or two of paragon. (This was something introduced in Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, BTW, which was expanded into the Racial Paragon levels in WotC's' Unearthed Arcana.)
I think adding automatic abilities increases power creep. PCs are already getting something every level with the updated classes, do they really need more? And if you go this way, are you going to add abilities every few HD for monsters, so that a fire giant can be different than a stone giant?
Feats avoid the power creep, but do we really need more feats? There are so many feats out there already, the last thing we need is more of them, just because.
In short, using paragon levels from UA is the best way to go, IMO.
My biggest concern is non-OGL races. If Pathfinder RPG is going to be truly compatable with 3.5, than what do I do if I want to play an illumian in Pathfinder? Is he weaker because he doesn't have a lot of extra stuff that dwarves now get?
I'd rather have racial substitution levels.
El Skootro
I see compatibility issues with having auto racial improvements. I do however, love the idea of Racial feats in the base book.
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My biggest concern is non-OGL races. If Pathfinder RPG is going to be truly compatable with 3.5, than what do I do if I want to play an illumian in Pathfinder? Is he weaker because he doesn't have a lot of extra stuff that dwarves now get?
Yeah, I have a player who's currently running a Raptoran Warlock. When we start RotR he wants to build a Dvati Sha'ir. I'm not sure how much love either character will find in Pathfinder RPG, aside from increased feat progression, more hit points, and some kind of skill tweaking. I'll be curious to see what advice is offered for making non-Pathfinder races and classes comparable to those included in the Pathfinder RPG.
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I like the idea, it gives more options for your character, especially if you're interested in expanding not just with classes but also showing growth from a racial aspect. I like that a 8th level elven thief could have subtle differences from a halfling thief of the same level.
My only concern is power creep. It's one thing if these feats could substitute for other feats when a character levels but if it's added in addition to the normal amount of feats, that could unbalance things.
An 8th level elf of any class is going to be different than an 8th level halfling of the same class. Or a half-orc, dwarf, gnome, or human.
The base racial abilities are guaranteed to make the races different, what more does there need to be?
If an elf wants to be a better archer, he takes levels in ranger and/or the bow dedicated feats like Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot.
If Paizo does go with some sort of racial improvement abilities, what are humans going to get?
I will but my vot in for racial feats. However, I would also include cultural feats or a racial/cultural background feat that scales in some way.
Just as a Dwarf will focus on different things than a human, so would a character from the Land of the Linnorm Kings focus on different things that a character from Varisia.
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Just out of curiosity, why would races "improve" over an adventuring career?
I find it hard to believe that adventuring as a fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric, etc., will make an elf more "elfy" or a dwarf more "dwarven", or even a human more "human".
How do you become "more" of your race than you are at the start?
You might become 'more of your race,' but you might have advanced enough in the eyes of your people that they are sharing stuff with you that every single person doesn't get to know right after potty-training.
A Dwarf reaches X level and his Clan recognizes his accomplishments and teaches him some ancient secrets, battle techniques used by the legendary founders of the Clan, or puts him through a ritual challenge that toughens his skin with rare oils, or just says, 'Gratz. You're now big enough to know the secrets to Dwarven Mastercraft Weapons, and how to most effectively use them, so have a +1 to hit with them, and 75% cost to make them.'
An Elf, on the other hand, might indeed get 'Elfier,' more like the ancient Fey from which their people derived, more alien, more beautiful, more magical.
Or vice versa.
As Dwarves age, they become more 'of the earth' and their skin hardens and their wills grow stronger, making them ever more resistant to blades and spells and other 'concerns of the flesh.'
Elves might have advancement ceremonies when one of their kind reaches certain thresholds, welcoming them into new 'levels of initiation' or 'rites of passage,' and handing out material crafts or certain benefits that they've spent years working on, in preparation for Gonzo the Elf to hit level X.
Every race could have a different mechanism for it. Gnomes might become 'gnomier' and more fey. Or turn into Svirfneblin-like critters with SLAs related to earth and stone. Or they might be welcomed into increasingly esoteric higher orders of Gnomish society, reserved for people who have reached X level in class Y, making all of Gnomish society a massive confusing web of secret and exclusive societies, all working chaotically, occasionally at cross-purposes, but providing certain benefits (like Affiliation benefits) to those who have 'made the cut' and 'joined the big boys club.'
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This was one of the only things I was looking forward to for 4E so I think Pathfinder RPG needs something like this. Currently a 12th level dwarven fighter and human fighter are not that different. With racial feats or powers this would change, the hard part would be humans. Making racial feats for humans would be hard and I think just letting them take what ever feat they want is a cop out.
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I would also like to add a vote to the "race matters" camp. I like the idea that a PC would learn more of her cultural "secrets" or abilities as they advance. I agree that it should not be making a dwarf more dwarfy but it should allow racial or cultural characteristic to grow or improve with experience.
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I would also like to add a vote to the "race matters" camp. I like the idea that a PC would learn more of her cultural "secrets" or abilities as they advance. I agree that it should not be making a dwarf more dwarfy but it should allow racial or cultural characteristic to grow or improve with experience.
The only problem with that is: gaining levels usually doesn't take much time. A player may only age a couple years in that time.
Gaining more racial abilities should only come with age. Not through adventuring.|
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I would also like to add a vote to the "race matters" camp. I like the idea that a PC would learn more of her cultural "secrets" or abilities as they advance. I agree that it should not be making a dwarf more dwarfy but it should allow racial or cultural characteristic to grow or improve with experience.The only problem with that is: gaining levels usually doesn't take much time. A player may only age a couple years in that time.
Gaining more racial abilities should only come with age. Not through adventuring.
Yeah, that is always a problem. I was thinking of abilities that "grow". So for the Dwarf it could be an ever-improving resistance to poison. He could get +1 to his save every two or three levels for example.
You might become 'more of your race,' but you might have advanced enough in the eyes of your people that they are sharing stuff with you that every single person doesn't get to know right after potty-training.
Remember, adventurers aren't starting out right after finishing potty-training, they're close to (and sometimes are) adulthood for their race, what kinds of purely racial knowledge and abilities would there be left for them to learn?
Once a human reaches approximately 15-18 years old, he's pretty much got everything that can be a "racial" ability of humans, everything else he learns is distinctly non-racial.
I'm doubtful that anything else relevant needs to be put in for the other races, especially in a way that doesn't shortchange humans in either abilities gained or lack of useful abilities.
A Dwarf reaches X level and his Clan recognizes his accomplishments and teaches him some ancient secrets, battle techniques used by the legendary founders of the Clan, or puts him through a ritual challenge that toughens his skin with rare oils, or just says, 'Gratz. You're now big enough to know the secrets to Dwarven Mastercraft Weapons, and how to most effectively use them, so have a +1 to hit with them, and 75% cost to make them.'
An Elf, on the other hand, might indeed get 'Elfier,' more like the ancient Fey from which their people derived, more alien, more beautiful, more magical.
*snip*
And what happens when a character reaches a level beyond that of 99% of the rest of their race? Who is going to teach them anything, or show them anything related to race?
The average non-adventurer isn't likely to pass 12th level, regardless of race, simply because of not having opportunities to accumulate enough XP to do so.
I'm not totally opposed to additional racial abilities, I just want a well thought out rational behind them; something that doesn't make 1st level PCs (or NPCs) of that race seem "incomplete" or render humans less attractive as a race at higher levels.
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The only problem with that is: gaining levels usually doesn't take much time. A player may only age a couple years in that time.
Gaining more racial abilities should only come with age. Not through adventuring.
Assuming the racial abilities are biological changes, which they aren't, even in 3.X. Some racial abilities are biological, like darkvision, others, such as familiarity with certain weapons, or bonuses to attack racial enemies, are learned.
There's no reason at all that new things couldn't be learned as levels increase. "Ha ha, Thorgrim, you've become a mighty warrior indeed, and now you've earned the right to learn our secret fighting techniques against the scourge of dragonkind!"
There's also the possibility of physical gifts (MW warhammer), social advantages (cheaper gear?) or even special coming-of-age-ceremonies with mystical significance that *do* change the character (you are now worthy to commune with the ancestors, who can teach you many things, if they do not drive you mad... Step into the circle, and drink the elixir of chrysalis, Elwyn, and when you awaken, your evolution will be complete... The elemental lords will gaze upon you, do not flinch, Feari, or they may judge you harshly. Ah, but if they are pleased with your accomplishments, you too shall learn the secrets of the singing stones, and the earth itself will become your ally.).
It's easy enough to rationalize physical change that has nothing to do with physical age in a magical world. Monte Cooks Arcana Unearthed is chock-full of Ceremonial Feats and Racial Evolutions that are mystical and ritual in nature, and not dependent on how many years you've been kicking around.
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Currently in my Rise of the Runelords campaign we are using a variant rule of my design I call 'Gestalt Races'. I put a thread up on it on the Paizo website and a few others, and have greatly expanded it.
For the most part, racial abilities come at 2nd and every 3 levels thereafter (2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, 20th). Those levels tend to be 'boring' levels in 3.5, since players get only an ability adjustment at 8th and 20th, and nothing at the other levels...
Each race has a number of abilities, and I've actually done up races for all of the core humanoids in the MM1 (and most of the others). So far it has worked extremely well, and has not done much to increase the overall power of the game.
Humans have bonus feats, the ability to add skills to their class skill list, and variable bonuses to their ability score beyond the normal increases. Dwarves tend to gain feats like Endurance and Diehard, getting tougher and more grizzled as they adventure. They also have some bonuses related to their familiar weapons. Gnomes and elves both have variant spellcasting. Gnomes gain most illusion spells, while the elf spell list contains a number of air/wood/water/light based spells, as well some healing ability and spells that relate to combat (spells like bladeweave from Spell Compendium). Both have limited healing and the spell progression is similar to bard (getting 6th spells at high levels). The halfling has some 'luck' based abilities, gaining things like evasion and mettle as racial abilities, along with feats like power critical (lucky blow).
The racial adjustments I provided are also similar to the ones in the Pathfinder Alpha.
This has turned out to work pretty well. The party cleric, for instance, hasn't had to use up all of his spells to heal outside of combat. The elf gains curing spells like a druid (so cure mod is 3rd level) and the gnome is like a druid +1 (so cure mod is 4th level) it has helped out a lot. So far the players seem to enjoy the extra abilities, and it helps make race matter more - class still matters, but the differences between a half-orc and a half-elf are clearly visible.
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( copied from Favored Class Suggestions )
I'm toying with the idea of using racial feats to do the same thing that UA Paragon Classes currently do, like so (copied from the Half Orc Paragon in UA):
Prerequisite: Half Orc, character level 4
Benefit: You learn to channel your innate ferocity, gaining a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks
Half Orc Hero [Racial]
Prerequisite: Half Orc, Half Orc Leader, character level 8
Benefit: Further channeling your innate ferocity, you gain the ability to fly into a screaming blood frenzy once per day (or one additional time per day, if you already have a rage ability)
Half Orc Paragon [Racial]
Prerequisite: Half Orc, Half Orc Leader, Half Orc Hero, character level 12
Benefit: your Strength score increases by 2 points
So this would play into both the favored class by race idea, as well as offering a benefit that the character could use regardless of class(es) chosen.
If they all followed the same model of a) bonus to skill, b) added ability (or extra use of existing ability), c) ability score increase then they should be roughly balanced, at least against each other, and that would provide guidance for adding this kind of racial feat set to others not included in UA (or Pathfinder RPG, assuming they'd end up there).
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After some thought (yay, long drives out of town to visit relatives!) I'd probably go with something more like:
Dwarven Leader [Racial]
Prerequisite: Dwarf, character level 4
Benefit: Select one skill from the fighter class skill list. You gain a +4 racial bonus to checks made using this skill. This skill is always considered a class skill for you.
Dwarven Hero [Racial]
Prerequisite: Dwarf, Dwarven Leader, character level 8
Benefit: Channeling your enmity for racial enemies, you gain an additional +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and goblin subtype.
Dwarven Paragon [Racial]
Prerequisite: Dwarf, Dwarven Leader, Dwarven Hero, character level 12
Benefit: Select either Constitution or Wisdom. You gain a +2 inherent bonus to the selected ability score.
= Elven Racial Feats =
Elven Leader [Racial]
Prerequisite: Elf, character level 4
Benefit: Select one skill from the wizard class skill list. You gain a +4 racial bonus to checks made using this skill. This skill is always considered a class skill for you.
Elven Hero [Racial]
Prerequisite: Elf, Elven Leader, character level 8
Benefit: Select one cantrip from the Wizard spell list. You may cast this cantrip at will as a spell-like ability.
Elven Paragon [Racial]
Prerequisite: Elf, Elven Leader, Elven Hero, character level 12
Benefit: Select either Dexterity or Intelligence. You gain a +2 inherent bonus to the selected ability score.
= Half Orc Racial Feats =
Half Orc Leader [Racial]
Prerequisite: Half Orc, character level 4
Benefit: Select one skill from the barbarian class skill list. You gain a +4 racial bonus to checks made using this skill. This skill is always considered a class skill for you.
Half Orc Hero [Racial]
Prerequisite: Half Orc, Half Orc Leader, character level 8
Benefit: Channeling your innate ferocity, you gain the ability to fly into a screaming blood frenzy once per day (or one additional time per day, if you already have a rage ability).
Half Orc Paragon [Racial]
Prerequisite: Half Orc, Half Orc Leader, Half Orc Hero, character level 12
Benefit: Select either Strength or Wisdom. You gain a +2 inherent bonus to the selected ability score.
( and so on )
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Once a human reaches approximately 15-18 years old, he's pretty much got everything that can be a "racial" ability of humans, everything else he learns is distinctly non-racial.
To repeat myself, these 'racial abilities' aren't always *biological* abilities. Some, such as weapon familiarities or bonuses to hit goblins, are *learned.*
Humans don't lose the ability to *learn* when they hit 2nd level, nor do they lose the ability to be given material or secular benefits, or access to certain benefits. As time goes on, they could be recognized as champions and experts and masters of their particular trade and be *taught* new things, or granted new benefits, similar to Affiliation bonuses.
"You are a mighty warrior, Mordanna, the king wishes to reward skill and bravery such as yours, and he has empowered me to grant you this boon."
What's the boon? Deeds to huge tracts of open land? A knighting and the ability to call up peasants like a one-time use of Leadership? A bag of phat lewt? Permission to train with the Kings own bodyguard, who know secret ways to parry blows? Permission to hang out in the royal library and get a +2 circumstance bonus to all Knowledge checks? Reduced rates on spellcasting from the Church of Gosh-We-Love-The-King? Reduced rates on Magic crafting from the Academy of Mages-Who-Owe-The-King-A-Favor?
The human, or dwarf, elf, gnome, halfling, whatever doesn't *have* to grow a new limb to gain a benefit. They could just learn something new, or receive a certain benefit or advantage from their own people.
I'm doubtful that anything else relevant needs to be put in for the other races, especially in a way that doesn't shortchange humans in either abilities gained or lack of useful abilities.
Clearly I've misunderstood. I thought that Humans were *also* going to gain new things as they leveled, not just Elves and Dwarves.
Using Affiliation benefits as a guideline, again, Humans are no less able to learn something new or get access to some benefit, than Elves, Dwarves or One-Horned, One-Eyed Flying Purple People-Eaters.
But if Humans are excluded for some nonsensical reason, then yeah, I'd agree that it's a lame idea.
And what happens when a character reaches a level beyond that of 99% of the rest of their race? Who is going to teach them anything, or show them anything related to race?
Even bigger elves? Servants of the Seldarine? The Elf-Queen herself? Corellon speaking to him in a dream, and thanking him for so exemplifying elfly standards and reminding the other races that elvenkind is not a dissipating race in decline, pining for the days when they were contenders?
If any single adventurer you've played has reached such a level that he knows every single thing that any member of his species has ever known, and has nothing to learn about anything, and, more importantly, can't possibly receive any sort of benefit or accolade from his own species, then you're playing a different game than I am.
Bob the Elf might indeed be the highest level Elven Wizard *ever,* having just reached Epic levels and mastered new spells never before seen, and that doesn't mean that his people have *nothing* they can give him, even if it's just free coupons for Magic Item Week at Elf-Mart.
For that matter, if he's all that and a bag of chips, the elven gods will more than likely want to say, 'Attaboy. Keep up the good work.'
To repeat myself, these 'racial abilities' aren't always *biological* abilities. Some, such as weapon familiarities or bonuses to hit goblins, are *learned.*
Yes, some “racial” abilities aren't biological, but they're still given in totality at 1st level. Dwarves don't have to earn X amount of XP before learning how to use a dwarven urgosh, nor how to hit goblins better. Those are abilities they learn in childhood, long before the game starts.
Humans don't lose the ability to *learn* when they hit 2nd level, nor do they lose the ability to be given material or secular benefits, or access to certain benefits. As time goes on, they could be recognized as champions and experts and masters of their particular trade and be *taught* new things, or granted new benefits, similar to Affiliation bonuses.
That's all covered already by leveling. The master crafter has more levels of expert and correspondingly higher number of ranks in one or more Craft skills than an amateur crafter. Those benefits of being “taught” new things, such as new spells, new combat techniques, new ways of crafting items, are not anywhere near being “racial”, they're occupational, and therefore class-based abilities.
"You are a mighty warrior, Mordanna, the king wishes to reward skill and bravery such as yours, and he has empowered me to grant you this boon."
What's the boon? Deeds to huge tracts of open land? A knighting and the ability to call up peasants like a one-time use of Leadership? A bag of phat lewt? Permission to train with the Kings own bodyguard, who know secret ways to parry blows? Permission to hang out in the royal library and get a +2 circumstance bonus to all Knowledge checks? Reduced rates on spellcasting from the Church of Gosh-We-Love-The-King? Reduced rates on Magic crafting from the Academy of Mages-Who-Owe-The-King-A-Favor?
Pardon me for saying that this is a poor example, not a single one of the boons is restricted to or by race. Mordanna could be a human, or an elf, or even a half-orc, and would still be able to gain those boons. Boons such as that will only be poorly tied to race, and then likely only when the boon giver is of a different race than the recipient.
The human, or dwarf, elf, gnome, halfling, whatever doesn't *have* to grow a new limb to gain a benefit. They could just learn something new, or receive a certain benefit or advantage from their own people.
You're right, they don't need to grow a new limb, but any racial benefits have to be heavily geared toward “race” not just “benefit”, and should be largely balanced against each other. Not completely, but enough so that the benefits of dwarven racial abilities aren't noticeably superior or inferior to those of elven racial abilities or human racial abilities.
And frankly, I think if dwarves end up getting a DR racial ability, gnomes more SLAs, and other races getting abilities that are EX, SU, or SP, then humans gaining only feats or more skills is shortchanging the humans. Yeah, they may *know* more, but that's kind of lame when the other races are getting interesting abilities.
Clearly I've misunderstood. I thought that Humans were *also* going to gain new things as they leveled, not just Elves and Dwarves.
Using Affiliation benefits as a guideline, again, Humans are no less able to learn something new or get access to some benefit, than Elves, Dwarves or One-Horned, One-Eyed Flying Purple People-Eaters.
But if Humans are excluded for some nonsensical reason, then yeah, I'd agree that it's a lame idea.
I agree with that, which is part of my point: If all the other races get new abilities tied to race, then humans need their own abilities, which are not just feats and skills, otherwise the race will begin to seem like a suboptimal choice.
Even bigger elves? Servants of the Seldarine? The Elf-Queen herself? Corellon speaking to him in a dream, and thanking him for so exemplifying elfly standards and reminding the other races that elvenkind is not a dissipating race in decline, pining for the days when they were contenders?
If any single adventurer you've played has reached such a level that he knows every single thing that any member of his species has ever known, and has nothing to learn about anything, and, more importantly, can't possibly receive any sort of benefit or accolade from his own species, then you're playing a different game than I am.
Bob the Elf might indeed be the highest level Elven Wizard *ever,* having just reached Epic levels and mastered new spells never before seen, and that doesn't mean that his people have *nothing* they can give him, even if it's just free coupons for Magic Item Week at Elf-Mart.
For that matter, if he's all that and a bag of chips, the elven gods will more than likely want to say, 'Attaboy. Keep up the good work.'
Okay, in the interest of quantifying things, just what “extra” racial abilities do you think elves need? What things, beyond levels in their favored class, would make sense for an elf to obtain as a racial ability? What would make an elf “more” of an elf?
I personally feel that nothing is *needed*, an elf that wants to better exemplify the magic aspect of elves should be taking levels in wizard, while one focused on swordplay should be a fighter. Elves already have all the racial abilities upon reaching adulthood, and the only way to improve any of them is to gain XP and level up in a class.
personally, i would like the addition of something to make each race different at higher levels (as has been said many times before).
the best way i have seen it done so far is to have racial substitution levels.