Firbolgs- we need a giantkin PC race ;)
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I envision an entire book of new PC races, with lots of cultural and ethnic details on, say 10-15 sweet "second tier" PC races. I already have a short list for just this purpose, but I suppose you could say I am taking requests. :)
That's outside the scope of the Pathfinder RPG project for the moment, though. The idea here is to preserve the canonical core of the game, which is comprised of the standard races and classes from 1e with the addition of the sorcerer as a nod to the game's third edition roots.
We'll get to cool second-tier races and awesome new core classes and stuff, but we need to make sure that the core is rock solid first.
I envision an entire book of new PC races, with lots of cultural and ethnic details on, say 10-15 sweet "second tier" PC races. I already have a short list for just this purpose, but I suppose you could say I am taking requests. :)
That's outside the scope of the Pathfinder RPG project for the moment, though. The idea here is to preserve the canonical core of the game, which is comprised of the standard races and classes from 1e with the addition of the sorcerer as a nod to the game's third edition roots.
We'll get to cool second-tier races and awesome new core classes and stuff, but we need to make sure that the core is rock solid first.
Good call- best to take care of the basics first- it was the Hairy Celt in me that got all excited.
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I envision an entire book of new PC races, with lots of cultural and ethnic details on, say 10-15 sweet "second tier" PC races. I already have a short list for just this purpose, but I suppose you could say I am taking requests. :)
That's outside the scope of the Pathfinder RPG project for the moment, though. The idea here is to preserve the canonical core of the game, which is comprised of the standard races and classes from 1e with the addition of the sorcerer as a nod to the game's third edition roots.
We'll get to cool second-tier races and awesome new core classes and stuff, but we need to make sure that the core is rock solid first.
That's great to hear Erik. There's several people I know, myself included, who won't touch the core races. Too tame. I'm glad you'll be addressing that later.
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I envision an entire book of new PC races, with lots of cultural and ethnic details on, say 10-15 sweet "second tier" PC races. I already have a short list for just this purpose, but I suppose you could say I am taking requests. :)
That's outside the scope of the Pathfinder RPG project for the moment, though. The idea here is to preserve the canonical core of the game, which is comprised of the standard races and classes from 1e with the addition of the sorcerer as a nod to the game's third edition roots.
We'll get to cool second-tier races and awesome new core classes and stuff, but we need to make sure that the core is rock solid first.
Gerb Funguslicker relaxed back on a pile of rubbish near Sandpoint takeing the opportunity to make adjustments to the Steam Pistol he had lifted from the rubbish heap and waved it menacingly at the other goblins scrounging for scraps.
"Yupyup! Nowweseetothezegrubbers!" A goblin squealed and ran for cover as Gerb pointed the weapon at the moving target.
"Mesteamdruidtoo!" The Heat Metal Spell brought the steam and the gun fired. A spray of steam and the squealing goblin fell over from the impact of the shot.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I see Tiefling and Aassimar making the Second Tier. I'd also say Dark Elves just off the top of my head. I do hope Paizo can find a few/ create a few to fill the rest, in a logical to the world mentality.
Hmm, things that come to mind.
On ECL's, can we please use the commoner class to level up to the ECL requirement, then act as first level + characters from then on.
Say have 2 backgrounds, martial and academic, the first has d6 HD and 2 skill points, and acedemic has d4 HD and 4 skill points. In addition a feat and "craft/profession skills pack" would be nice.
If there could also be a 0 level ECL, to give players a background level with an extra bit of HD would be nice.
Note that when characters "go heroic" they should still get the 1st level benefits.
Also, just thought, this would be great for a commoners class, instead of what we currently have.
I prefer a fixed XP-penalty at character creation. Instead of LA +1, you start with an XP-penalty of -2000. When you have gained 2000 XP, you are considered to be a t 0 XP and start from there as normal. It has the advantage of gradualy negating itself over time automatically. At level 15, tagging 2000 xp behind doesn't really have an impact.
Another topic that should be part of the Pathfinder RPG is sub-races. You can be of different oppinion about them, but there should be a way of handling them.
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Whatever races are chosen (Minotaurs) eliminate ECL. Judicious mechanics can always be used to keep ECL to 0.
I really don't think anyone likes ECL.
I'd say 'word,' but in this case, my agreement with this goes beyond 'word' to 'chapter and verse.'
Races, IMO, should follow a Raptoran model and get their cooler abilities later, rather than be LA adjusted and get them all at once. Throw in some *bonus* racial feats that the 'weaker races' (elves, humans, dwarves, etc.) can choose from as they level, while the 'powerful races' are getting their special powers, and it should balance out decently. The elf will be getting elfier as the minotaur just keeps getting bigger and stronger, and neither character will end up getting more bang for their race-choice buck.
The best part of expanding player races is there inclusion in your own game is completely optional. ^^
From the MM I wouldn't mind seeing updates of the following:
Goblins (with the flavour that was found in Pathfinder #1)
Hobgoblins
Kobolds
Merfolk
Orc
Teifling
Aasimar
Im glad the "Core Book" for Pathfinder is the PHB races.
I dont mind new races but they are for add on books.
I would not have minded Teiflings and Drgonborn at all if they were in the PHB2 for 4th edition. Putting them in the initial core book still feels very wrong to me.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I would like to see several monster races receive a core treatment in the new rules. Logically it makes sense that some members of the most populous and common monster races would eventually rise above their monstrous nature. Here is what I would like to see in order of preference:
Monsters: Orc, Goblin, Kobold, Gnoll, Hobgoblin, Lizardman, Bugbear, Troglodyte, Doppleganger/Changling
I would also like to see the main subraces receive core treatment. In order of preference here are those, with my own naming convention:
Dwarf: Deep, Mountain, Hill, Vile
Elf: High, Wood, Water, Dark
Gnome: Stone, Tree, Deep, Wicked
I usually dislike allowing giant races but if I have to choose here's what I'd like to see:
Giant: Ogre, Troll, Hill, Stone, Half-Fire, Half-Frost
Finally, I'd like to see the following weird races, with the names changed to protect the innocent:
Weird: Pixie, Satyr, Gargoyle, Githyani, Githzani, Illithoid, Half-Demon, Half-Angel
This is what I’ll be doing in my own game world regardless of what happens. :)
While I accept that any new races (or any races, really) are allowed at the whim of the dungeon master, I’d still like to go on record with saying I prefer my D&D worlds to be very human-centric. The more extra playable races you add to the mix, the more diluted the human society becomes (please don’t let anyone take that sentence out of context).
So for me, at least, I’d be very unlikely to accept any non-core races unless I introduced them as replacements for another race. Fer instance, elves might not be appropriate for Osirion, but a cat-headed race might.
Having said that, though, I’d like to put out a request for racial levels. I love the idea that a dwarven fighter might have different abilities than a halfling fighter, fer instance, and racial levels really give a player the chance to take advantage of his racial flavor.
So when new races are added (or even for the ones we already have), I’d like to see something like this mechanic to make them distinct.
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Having said that, though, I’d like to put out a request for racial levels. I love the idea that a dwarven fighter might have different abilities than a halfling fighter, fer instance, and racial levels really give a player the chance to take advantage of his racial flavor.
So when new races are added (or even for the ones we already have), I’d like to see something like this mechanic to make them distinct.
Very much agree with this.
And for the new races, I love the idea of playing various oddballs like Hobgoblins and Gnolls, but I very much *do not want* to see something strapped together and thrown out there, like many of the races in WotC's 'Races of' books. If Gnolls, Hobgoblins, etc. are going to get the PC race treatment, I'd rather see them *really* fleshed out.
The Dwarf, Gnome, etc. have a list of special racial features that number near a dozen, while the Orc has 'Darkvision.' That doesn't fly for me. If it's going to be playable, whether Elf or Goblin, it should have an equal amount of 'stuff.' Stretching this 'stuff' out over levels makes the most sense, IMO, rather than front-loading, and Fletch's suggestion of having the racial abilities be available in different class options is ideal, rather than Elves having an assortment of racial abilities that are only good for wizards, and leave Elven Clerics, Rogues and Fighters stuck out in the cold.
Pigeonholing = bad.
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While I accept that any new races (or any races, really) are allowed at the whim of the dungeon master, I’d still like to go on record with saying I prefer my D&D worlds to be very human-centric. The more extra playable races you add to the mix, the more diluted the human society becomes (please don’t let anyone take that sentence out of context).
So for me, at least, I’d be very unlikely to accept any non-core races unless I introduced them as replacements for another race. Fer instance, elves might not be appropriate for Osirion, but a cat-headed race might.
Having said that, though, I’d like to put out a request for racial levels. I love the idea that a dwarven fighter might have different abilities than a halfling fighter, fer instance, and racial levels really give a player the chance to take advantage of his racial flavor.
So when new races are added (or even for the ones we already have), I’d like to see something like this mechanic to make them distinct.
I agree with this whole-heartedly, I don't see Elves fitting well into the Tian Xia region, or Gnomes in Mwangi.
I envision an entire book of new PC races, with lots of cultural and ethnic details on, say 10-15 sweet "second tier" PC races. I already have a short list for just this purpose, but I suppose you could say I am taking requests. :)
That's outside the scope of the Pathfinder RPG project for the moment, though. The idea here is to preserve the canonical core of the game, which is comprised of the standard races and classes from 1e with the addition of the sorcerer as a nod to the game's third edition roots.
We'll get to cool second-tier races and awesome new core classes and stuff, but we need to make sure that the core is rock solid first.
Erik,
Since you are taking requests, I know this sounds silly, but I'd really like to have goblins as a playable race... yeah, I know they have disadvantages of sorts, but I could see them tweaked a bit for stealth.Also, since you are taking requests... can I please ask for this one request?
If you do a races book, would you be so kind as to consider an aging reference for humanoid monsters? I know I can play a goblin rogue straight out atm but I want to know his starting age and what not?
If anything, say "Monster" aging comparable to that of a gnome, if you wanted to keep things short. Or maybe have an aging chart. Type A aging might be lesser lived than half orcs, half orcs might have Type B aging cycles, Humans Type C, Half Elfs Type D, etc. etc.
I would just like to know the life cycle of other creatures is all.
Thanks!
And MinotaursThe best part of expanding player races is there inclusion in your own game is completely optional. ^^
From the MM I wouldn't mind seeing updates of the following:
Goblins (with the flavour that was found in Pathfinder #1)
Hobgoblins
Kobolds
Merfolk
Orc
Teifling
Aasimar
<.< >.> But I don't like minotaurs...overly much...
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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If you do a races book, would you be so kind as to consider an aging reference for humanoid monsters? I know I can play a goblin rogue straight out atm but I want to know his starting age and what not?
I second this!
Also we all have our preferences. Your game world might favor humans or you may not prefer minotaurs in your game but others might. What we ultimately need to have is a good set of uniform racial options that are not scattered in ten books.
Many of the opinions on this topic seem to consider only player characters. Let's not forget about the cool villians game masters could create with a good set of racial options, which is difficult to do at present without a lot of work and interpretation. This makes the prospect of having the option beneficial for even a human-centered world and you can ignore whatever races don't suit you.
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Scrounger Prestiege Class
Race: Goblin
Alignment: Any Neutral
Base Attack: +3
Skill Requirements
- Spot (8 ranks)
- Climb (8 Ranks)
As a scrounger you get to add the ranks of your Appraisal skill to your Spot Skill (The greater your appraise - the more likely you will notice something valuable).
"Hoohoo! Steampistolallminenow!" Gerb the Goblin Steam Druid pulled at the abandoned weapon burried amongst the rubbish.
*shrugs* Honestly, it doesn't come up that often. I find the majority of my players are unwilling to sacrifice the class power for overly powerful races.
Personally though I find that more often then naught the LAs just aren't balanced...especially when you get into creatures that already have racial HD. Quite often the LA ends up being overkill. Making the monstrous race appear playable when it really isn't at all.
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There seems to be a strong dislike of ECL on this baord, and I can understand that completely.
Is it universal? does ANYONE like the ECL rules?
And how -do- people feel about racial levels? A good way to give some races special and unique powers, or a cop-out? Thoughts?
I don't like the idea of racial levels, I don't want to be cruising along in say wizard then have to stop my spell progression to take a level of elf or whatever to get a nice elf ability.
I'd prefer to get the chance to take a racial ability from a race specific pool say every 4th level.
I like ECL. The reason, I feel, why people DON'T like ECL, is that people felt a lot of ECLs in the early days of 3rd edition, with the exception of the Half Dragon, were inappropriate.
Avariel: Why is this a +3 when Winged Elf is a +2? I have an answer, but you folks won't like it.
Etc.
But not a lot of people run games to the levels where you can actually see the full effects of ECL across a 20 level range. Is the +3 for a Half Dragon balanced? Absolutely! I run a game called The Terrible Revenge of Roungouze Haballanter. One of the characters is a half dragon. At 12th level, that character is the equal of a level 15 character, AND it's a CLERIC, which is actually highly suboptimal. Is Lashakara, AKA Happy the Half Dragon, balanced for that level? Absolutely.
So why are some races possessed of a higher level adjustment than they actually should have?
Here is my GUESS as to why that happened. It is to enforce the rarity of these races. If Avariel has a +3 Level Adjustment, the DM can keep them rare, because few will wish to play them, and if the PC's need to encounter a few of them, it only raises the CR by 1.
Quite frankly, I think it's a brilliant, if under the table move. People who like to play exotic stuff get angry when they do this, but those of us who are simulationists and want our game to not have a million screwball races LOVE it. That way, the person who wants the exotic race can still have it, but there's a penalty for it.
Somehow, despite having over 70 active PC's in my Forgotten Realms game, there are two avariels, two Goliaths, and very little of anything else. There's a gloaming, and a TON of Genasi. There's multiple Earth Genasi and Air Genasi. Virtually no fire or water.
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I like ECL. The reason, I feel, why people DON'T like ECL, is that people felt a lot of ECLs in the early days of 3rd edition, with the exception of the Half Dragon, were inappropriate.
Avariel: Why is this a +3 when Winged Elf is a +2? I have an answer, but you folks won't like it.
Etc.
But not a lot of people run games to the levels where you can actually see the full effects of ECL across a 20 level range. Is the +3 for a Half Dragon balanced? Absolutely! I run a game called The Terrible Revenge of Roungouze Haballanter. One of the characters is a half dragon. At 12th level, that character is the equal of a level 15 character, AND it's a CLERIC, which is actually highly suboptimal. Is Lashakara, AKA Happy the Half Dragon, balanced for that level? Absolutely.
So why are some races possessed of a higher level adjustment than they actually should have?
Here is my GUESS as to why that happened. It is to enforce the rarity of these races. If Avariel has a +3 Level Adjustment, the DM can keep them rare, because few will wish to play them, and if the PC's need to encounter a few of them, it only raises the CR by 1.
Quite frankly, I think it's a brilliant, if under the table move. People who like to play exotic stuff get angry when they do this, but those of us who are simulationists and want our game to not have a million screwball races LOVE it. That way, the person who wants the exotic race can still have it, but there's a penalty for it.
Somehow, despite having over 70 active PC's in my Forgotten Realms game, there are two avariels, two Goliaths, and very little of anything else.
No offense, I'm probably just cranky this morning.
I have lots of experience with this issue as I've NEVER played a core race, and I've been doing this from day one. Trust me when I say the ECL rules are deeply flawed.Your logic is um...interesting. Let me toss this at ya. Do you think you might have so little exotics in your campaign because of natural player preference for core races and the fact that the rules are broken for ECL, not because they're so well written?
Of course exotics will be rarer if you slap penalties on them. I could make Halflings damn rare by slapping a bunch of arbitrary penalties on them. That's not a feature, it's a bug.
That's great that it works out and is balanced at high levels. Guess what, most games aren't high level. Last time I checked Pathfinder APs only go to 15th level.
Anyway, with ECL adjustments or level lending you generally don't get the hp you're supposed to have around that level. Ergo you're not going to live long enough to be balanced at high level or pay those levels back. You generally get glass cannons.
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Contributor
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There seems to be a strong dislike of ECL on this baord, and I can understand that completely.
Is it universal? does ANYONE like the ECL rules?
And how -do- people feel about racial levels? A good way to give some races special and unique powers, or a cop-out? Thoughts?
I love the idea of the ECL rules, but I don't think there's been enough playtesting done to assign appropriate LAs and ECLs. :)
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I love the idea of the ECL rules, but I don't think there's been enough playtesting done to assign appropriate LAs and ECLs. :)There seems to be a strong dislike of ECL on this baord, and I can understand that completely.
Is it universal? does ANYONE like the ECL rules?
And how -do- people feel about racial levels? A good way to give some races special and unique powers, or a cop-out? Thoughts?
You're definately right there. Not enough playtesting. I've seen designer biases tend to creep in. If you just wrote some race wouldn't you want to undervalue it so people will play it more? Playtesting tends to highlight and help fix that.
Yes I'm biased as well. I always want to take half dragon and get the half dragon abilities but the LA is too steep. I always have to settle for Draconic and that blows. I'd much rather there was a way to get some of the abilities over a few levels without a monster class (where'd my spell progression go?) or a huge LA (look at my hit points ma! What level am I again?)
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I don't care for the LA system and would prefer something more akin to the "bloodlines" of Unearthed Arcana, but without the bloodline levels. Just give the core races cool stuff over 20 levels too.
As far as fixing the current situation, the UA "Reducing Level Adjustment" works nicely. I'm playing a Catfolk from Races of the Wild in Curse of the Crimson Throne right now. We split his racial abilities to:
1st level (class level):
+2 Dex, Low-light vision, skill bonuses, 40 foot base speed
2nd level (no class level increase)
+2 Dex, +2 Cha, +1 Natural Armor
and when he gets to 4th level (ECL 4, class level 3) he's gonna get rid of the level adjustment entirely. Lot of bookkeeping and kinda silly I think when they could've just given them a -2 INT and had them get the Nat Armor at level 4 or something (or gotten rid of it entirely, a layer of fur isn't THAT protective).
How about the idea of splitting feats into 2 groups. General and Racial.
Every 3 levels a PC gets a general feat AND a racial feat. (my players can't get enough feats.)
This would let PCs chose feats that would allow them to play into their race, while also allowing Monster races to be developed without adding to the ECL.
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How about the idea of splitting feats into 2 groups. General and Racial.
Every 3 levels a PC gets a general feat AND a racial feat. (my players can't get enough feats.)This would let PCs chose feats that would allow them to play into their race, while also allowing Monster races to be developed without adding to the ECL.
Lovin' this idea. I hate LA, and this would allow someone to play a 'powerful race' without it being unbalancing, since the Drow, Minotaur, whatever is getting his cool stuff as he levels, while the Dwarf, Elf, etc. are *also* getting some racial perks that are only available to older members of their respective races.
Winged fairies, man. Chicks dig 'em. And we even have a "Fly" skill now.
Seriously, Monte Cook has flying sprytes and little quicklings (not to mention giant-kin); why should he get to have all the fun? Outside of humans, fey or (non-LA) giant-kin would be the only races I'd ever play (Tieflings, dragon-born, and warforged are for LOSERS!) (Just kidding. If you like to play them, that's your bag. Just don't expect me to follow suit).
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Of the current races, Hobgoblins and Gnolls (Gnoll Druid with Dire Hyena Animal Companion? Yes please!) are my absolute favorites.
But the game could use an interesting aquatic race and an interesting aerial race.
Aquatic races seem limited to fish-dudes (Sahuagin, Locathah), things that don't function on land (Merfolk, Tritons) and aquatic versions of land critters (Aquatic Elves, Aquatic Hobgoblins, Aquatic Umber Hulks, Aquatic Gargoyles, Aquatic Ghouls, Aquatic blah-blah-blah). I think I'd rather skip 'em all and make Selkies a playable race, with a bit of sea-fey, and a bit of cute girl who turns into a seal.
Aerial races include the Avariel / Winged Elves ('cause we *so desperately needed a new Elf race!*) and the Raptorans. While the rules mechanics for Raptorans are spiffy (racial abilities that show up later, rather than saddle you with LA now!), I think Aarakocra are a hojillion times more interesting.
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I love the idea of the ECL rules, but I don't think there's been enough playtesting done to assign appropriate LAs and ECLs. :)There seems to be a strong dislike of ECL on this baord, and I can understand that completely.
Is it universal? does ANYONE like the ECL rules?
And how -do- people feel about racial levels? A good way to give some races special and unique powers, or a cop-out? Thoughts?
I for one DO hate the ECL system.
I have been playing an Aasimar in a friends campaign and I really don't think it warrants a +1 ECL.Is it any more powerful than a dwarf? Not one bit.