Hi campaing fellows!
We had a quasi-TPK at the end of CoBI, but thanks that the only survivor was a seeker, it was easy to rebuild the party and they have succefully completed SoS. The only drawback in rebuilding the group have been that the 15th level characters my players have made from scratch have proved to be maximized killing machines! One of them is particulary dangerous and tricky, and he is the character I want to question about: Bastian, Human Necromancer. Bastian is at 17th level now, and he make extensive use of metamagic feats. He has aquired Black Lore of Moil and Twin Spell (both from the Complete Arcane handbook) and have a metamagic rod of maximize. My doubt is simple: If he studies a vampiric touch spell, augmented with the metamagic feats of Black Lore of Moil, Empower Spell and Twin Spell, and he uses when he cast the spell his metamagic rod....¿Has the twinned spell be maximized, empowered and "moilianed"? The player says YES and he says that the damage would be 72 hp (10d6 (base)+2d6 (moilian) of maximized damage)plus 6d6 (half of 12d6 from the empower spell) PLUS another 72+6d6 hp from the Twinned Spell. I think, in the other hand, that the twinned spell IS NOT maximized, nor "moilianed", nor empowered, and the damage will be 72+6d6+10d6....What do you think?
Thank you!!
I agree with you. The general rule seems to be that metamagic feats only affect the "base" spell effect.
Other thing:
Vampiric Touch is 3rd level.
Black Lore of Moil IIRC is at least a +1 spell level increase.
Empower Spell is a +2 spell level increase.
Twin Spell is a +4 spell level increase.
That in and of itself is a 10th level spell slot or higher - beyond a 17th level character's capability by more than a bit. If not, more power to the character. ^_^
Each feat applies to the baseline spell (Vampiric Touch), not cumulatively as he would argue.
10d6 by feats becomes (10d6+50% empowered) +2d6 (moilian) plus 60 (maximized).
Vampiric Touch has many countermeasures - it's thwarted handily by deathward or a Minor Globe of Invulnerability, as it is still considered a 3rd level spell. (Which also is Bad News when he feeds the target his own hit points when he taps said foe with an unknown Spell Turning effect up. A regular Spell Immunity could easily stop it. And so on... ^_^
Other thing:
Vampiric Touch is 3rd level.
Black Lore of Moil IIRC is at least a +1 spell level increase.The description in the Complete Arcane says that this feat "uses a spell slot of the spell´s normal level"....:(
I would argue that the base damage of the spell is maximized (10d6), but that the damage from Black Lore of Moil is not, unless it increases the damage cap of the vampiric touch spell, instead of doing an additional 2d6 damage (I don't have Comp Arcane in front of me, sorry.) So, in this case, I would think the damage would be 60+2d6 (BLoM) +5d6 (empower). (Again, if Black Lore of Moil increases the damage cap by two dice, then it should be 72+6d6.
I would say that the effects of the spell are shared with the twinned spell. After all, it's increasing the level of the spell by four, and with all the other metamagics on it, he's probably doing a vampiric touch (normally a 3rd level spell) as a 9th level spell, using an item he paid for/found and didn't sell to maximize it. Many other 9th level spells can do the same, if not more damage, without an investiture of at least three feats, so I'd say it's appropriate.
Remember, the DC of the spell remains as that of a 3rd-level spell, so it's also losing out in power that way. Forget if Vampiric Touch allows for a save--gosh, I should have my books here when I'm posting. :)
Could not really find jack on this in the SRD but I went hunting through the errata and finally the FAQ looking for something thats as close as possible to an official ruling. Finally came up with something in the FAQ.
If my wizard applies Energy Admixture (Complete Arcane, page 78) and maximize Spell to the same spell, does he get a spell that deals double its maximized damage (maximum normal damage in two different energy types)? If he also applied the Twin Spell feat (Complete Arcane,
page 84) to the same spell would it duplicate the entire effect?Yes and yes. Assuming your character can cast 13th-level spells—the slot required by a 2nd-level spell affected by these metamagic feats—a scorching ray so affected would create two sets of three rays each, with each ray dealing 24 points of fire damage (4d6, maximized) and 24 points of a second energy type (as appropriate for your Energy Substitution feat), for a grand total of 288 points of damage . . . assuming all six rays hit their target.
Looks like your players correct. Twin Spell gives you the spell with all its benefits attached again.
the calculation would be correct by all apearances, although I would argue, that the Moilian effect only applies once, since it it is not part of the original spell, but caused by an external application. Small consolation, I know.
We had a similar debate about the "hellcat gloves" from MIC, which add slashing damage to single target DD spells and agreed. that since the bonus damage originated from the magic of an item (in your case the moilian scribblings), they were not affected by metamagic feats, just like those from a wand, scroll or similar source, which required a specific separate feat to be affected.
Assuming that the metagmagic rod of maximize is a "lesser" one (affecting only spells up to third level) - which is affordable for characters of level 15, you might argue, that since the spell to be affected takes up a 5th or 9th level slot, it cannot be affected by the rod (something that TTBOMK has never been adequately clarified/stipulated ) in the first place.
On the other hand, that necromancer seems to be rather absurd in his choice of spells to be affected....
If you care for payback, hit him with a maximized split-ray enervation (using a 9th level slot) , perhaps twice, and see his character reduced to 9th, on a second casting down to 1st level through negative energy for caster level hours..... then ignore the min-maxer and proceed with the camapign as normal . Can be done in a single round as well, if one cares for precison character building....
And believe me, I have seen that combo run through an additional "twin spell" mechanism, which does 16 levels of negative energy in one fell strike (assuming you hit 4 times on a ranged touch versus the target ).. and that is without even touching WoTC's optimization/campaign-breaking boards
Personally, a split-ray maxmized disintegrate (possible at level 17 for 68D6 = 454 points of damage ( barring a save ) sounds like more fun, though....
One of the reasons we have imposed severe limits on the "sudden metamagic feats" and the use of metamagic rods . Might be an option for you as well.
If you care for payback, hit him with a maximized split-ray enervation (using a 9th level slot) , perhaps twice, and see his character reduced to 9th, on a second casting down to 1st level through negative energy for caster level hours..... then ignore the min-maxer and proceed with the camapign as normal . Can be done in a single round as well, if one cares for precison character building....
And believe me, I have seen that combo run through an additional "twin spell" mechanism, which does 16 levels of negative energy in one fell strike (assuming you hit 4 times on a ranged touch versus the target ).. and that is without even touching WoTC's optimization/campaign-breaking boards
Personally, a split-ray maxmized disintegrate (possible at level 17 for 68D6 = 454 points of damage ( barring a save ) sounds like more fun, though....
I Think I choose the second option for payback...the f****** necromancer doesn´t take a step without his loved "Veil of the Undead" cast on himself...:(
Thank you all for the answers (in despite of the bad news for my poor demons!!) ;)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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One of the reasons we have imposed severe limits on the "sudden metamagic feats" and the use of...
Out of curiosity, what levels have you imposed? It hasn't came up in my STAP game yet since the party is too low level, but Action Points and one metamagic feat mean easy access to an emulation of Sudden Maximise..
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This Vampiric touch combo spell doesn't strike me as all that powerful compared to other effects a player could put together at 17th level. More than that the saving throw for the effect would be a base of 13 plus intelligence bonus plus any additional feats. Even on a well optimized character he likely has no better than a +8-+10 on his intelligence bonus and even if he spent two more feats on Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus he is looking at a save DC of at worst 25 for the spell. That is not that difficult of a save for the types of monsters that pop up at level 17.
If you feel that the metamagic rods or sudden feats are too powerful, you always have the right to ban them from your game, but I don't see the problem here. At 9th level there are some insanely powerful spells that have nothing to do with those sorts of feats and abilities. For example, the simple Gate spell can be used to bring in a creature with double the number of HD as your caster has levels with no chance of the creature resisting the spell if he wants help for a single battle. Meteor Swarm alone will do a combined 32d6 damage to a single target if chosen that way. Add a single sudden empower effect and you are looking at 48d6 right out of the gate. For even crazier wankiness, consider the metamagic school focus feat from Complete Mage coupled witht the Master Specialis Prestige Class. With that effect, any metamagic feat a character uses on a spell has its level cost reduced by 1 up to 3 times a day. The reduction can only be applied once to any given feat on any give spell. Further, the Major School Esoterica for Conjurers (available at 13th level to a dedicated caster) allows the caster to cast any spell of their specialty school with a casting time of 1 standard action as a swift action 3 times a day. So if you had a specialist conjurer with that feat, Empower Spell, Twin Spell, and a Greater Rod of Maximization, you could prepare an Orb of Cold spell in an 8th level slot and one in a 9th level slot (4 for Twin -1 for Metamagic School Focus, 2 for Empower -1 for Metamagic School Focus for a total adjustment of 4, then do it again, but at a total adjustment of 5 by reducing twin to 3, but not enough to reduce empower a second time thus expending an 8th and 9th level slot) that does 15d6 base damage increased to 22d6 for Empower increased to 44d6 by Twinned, then increased to 88d6 due to the second swift casting in the same round and you end up with 528 pts of damage in one round, with no saving throw allowed on the hp damage, and 4 separate fort saves to resist being blinded. That occurs as per the errata as posted further up on metamagic feat stacking.
On the whole, I only point these things out to say that your necromancer isn't really even at the extreme end of what players can do with sudden feats and metamgic rods. I would suggest that you make a ruling for your game on if you want to allow those feats and items. If not, then problem solved. If you do want to allow them, pull the same sorts of stuff against him. Consider that forgetting the Master Specialist schtick, at 17th level it is very reasonable to have an opponent caster have access to a Greater Metamagic Quicken Rod, and Suddem Maximise and Sudden Empower. You could have an Evoker just using Meteor Swarm get off 80d6 of damage in one round. Alternatively have them cast an empowered maximised energy drain followed up by a quickened energy drain. For the STAP, you could design a Disciple of Demogogorgon that can get off 2 full rounds of casting off in one round.
I tend to think that casters face so many disadvantages to begin with (low hp, crummy saving throws for anything but Will, low AC, poor melee combatant) that trying to limit their casting power at the high end just isn't very fun for them. Min/Maxers aren't fun to play with. I totally agree with that, but if you are allowing the splat books then I think it is totally fair what he is doing. Just my take on things. If you want to allow it but discourage that sort of thinking, then give him a taste of his own tactics. There are so many ways to handle it. Just try to find the one that is funnest for everyone. Best of Luck!!!
P.S. One truely final thought, is that part of the fun of high level play for players is the ability to truely put a hurting on their foes. To achieve an effect so powerful, can only be done at most a 2 0r 3 times in a day. So once your characters head to the abyss and have to do things like fight through the meatgrinders at Divided's Ire and even Lemoriax, he will be able to use these powers on some of the tougher boss fights, but he will have to pick and choose his bullets. He will have to deal with very high spell resistances (often as high as 36 or more) that might cause even his best shots like that to completely fizzle. I just want to reassure you that there will be plenty of opportunities to hammer the living heck out of your players without limiting their ability to do the same. I would even argue that there are certain fights in this AP that would be very hard to win without some serious juice from the casters to back up the melee types. The fact that you got a TPK at CoBI, is an indication that your players probably felt compelled to pull out more optimized characters for the final chapters, to improve survivability. I think that the fact they have made these sorts of characters is a good indication to you that they have already had the proverbial "fear of the GM" put in their hearts by their experiences at CoBI. Again best of luck!!!
Assuming that the metagmagic rod of maximize is a "lesser" one (affecting only spells up to third level) - which is affordable for characters of level 15, you might argue, that since the spell to be affected takes up a 5th or 9th level slot, it cannot be affected by the rod (something that TTBOMK has never been adequately clarified/stipulated ) in the first place.
I'd very much agree with this. Though we do seem to have issues with RAW in this regard because their is no official ruling one way or another. Now here we really do need the metamagic Rods to effect the spells new level and not their initial level simply due to game balance. A high level wizard can easily buy enough Lesser Quicken Rods and Lesser Maximize to power a simply absurd number of spells and if the players are making low level spells into powerful high level spells they can't be allowed to make every one of them either maximized or quickened without basically breaking the game.
I searched the Errata and the FAQ for a ruling in this regard but have found zip.
However thinking about this it dawns on me that this question is important for at least two other items. Specifically the Ring of Wizardry and the Pearl of Power. The hope is to find some kind of a precedent for the use of more powerful magic items when dealing spells enhanced by metamagic feats. The presumption is if I can find a ruling that says I need to use a more powerful Ring of Wizardry for spells enhanced by Metamagic feats then it stands to reason that I would also need to use a more powerful Rod of Maximize to cast spells enhanced by Metamagic Feats.
SRD again fails to address the issue one way or another and the Errata likewise never considers the possibility. FAQ has something however.
Can a pearl of power be used to recall a spell of a lower level than it’s designed for? After all, I could have prepared a lower-level spell in that spell slot.No. A 5th-level pearl of power can recall only a 5th-level spell, even if all you prepared as 5th-level spells were multiple casting of stone skin.
Any metamagic effects (or other effects that altered the spell’s level) apply, so a 5th-level pearl of power can recall the quickened magic missile you’ve already cast, but not the be empowered cone of cold (since that’s a 7th-level spell).
Even this is not exactly asking the question I want asked but it does seems to be answering the correct question. Since Pearls of Power only get back Quickened magic missiles if they are 5th level Pearls of Power and not 1st level Pearls of Power it seems reasonable to presume that Metamagic Rods of Maximize only work on enhanced 9th level versions of vampiric touch if one has a Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize capable of applying its benefits to 9th level magic.
One of the reasons we have imposed severe limits on the "sudden metamagic feats" and the use of...Out of curiosity, what levels have you imposed? It hasn't came up in my STAP game yet since the party is too low level, but Action Points and one metamagic feat mean easy access to an emulation of Sudden Maximise..
Our three limitations (some other dependent on camapaign )
A) Chain access of sudden metamagic-feats :
empower ----> maximize,
shape (that is homebrew, methinks) or enlarge ---> widen
reach -----> enlarge
B) no more than one sudden metamagic feat /round, whatever the number of spells cast. This includes metamagcic effects applied through use of items or metamagic rods.
c) no exceeding the maximum spell level available to the character at casting time by one (calculated as if the spell to be modified would be altered by the non-sudden version )... basically not using maximize spell on the really big gun spells at mid level
the big breakers - IMHO - are sudden maximize and sudden quicken, especially in combination with twin-ed or split-ray spells. These can lead to dangerously high damage yields from single round effect like the described disintegrate - actually I quoted that one from first hand experience, since it evaporated my beloved cloistered cleric in the last campaign, after having piXXed off the major villain repeatedly and... I guess obnoxiously so. He is now part of the air polution over Calimport..... poor Selan al'Aquin, he wasn't so much missed as rather viewed as leaving early to avoid the rush !
On the other hand, these are often once/day combos, while deadly melee feat-combos work all the time, night and day.
the calculation would be correct by all apearances, although I would argue, that the Moilian effect only applies once, since it it is not part of the original spell, but caused by an external application. Small consolation, I know.
I actually think the player is underestimating the effects of Moilian Coil. The FAQ example allows Twin Spell to duplicate the addition of Energy Admixture and Maximize. Both of these are external sources (at least they are if I understand what you mean by external source).
Thus it seems as if the metamagic feats essentially stack on each other since thats obviously what Twin Spell is doing here. Well if the Metamagic Feats stack on each other with Twin Spell I can't see why they would not stack on each other for Maximize. I think the player does not do 2d6 for the Moilian effect but insead does a maximized Moilian effect which is 12 points of damage - twice (from the twin Spell metamagic feat) so Moilian Coil damage is 24.
carborundum, will you keep us posted as to your way of implementing "Rowyn MK II" and how it worked out ?
carborundum, will you keep us posted as to your way of implementing "Rowyn MK II" and how it worked out ?
lol what happened when I posted this - three posts on teh same night, and each one ends up in a totally different thread ?
Are the gremlins chained safely ?
They're loose all right. I kept bumping into your posts as they were dragged through the forums by a screaming horde of the little blighters!
And my Rowyn progress is slow but accelerating. I posted a few ideas in my thread, and left a trail of breadcrumbs for you.
poor them... my beloved brainchilds !
WHAT HAS THE ADMIN DONE TO THEM !
/just kidding