Let's kick off a directed discussion about this. Please check out the general conversions thread if you need to see some example monsters and discussion on how to convert.
First Encounter: Goblins in the Streets!
In 3rd ed terms, this is spread over three encounters. One with a few generic goblins, another with a bigger force of goblins with a warchanter a few rounds later, then another few rounds until a fighter against a goblin commando on goblin dog and some more goblins.
In 4E terms, there's no time for a 5 minute rest so it may be reasonable to think of this in terms of one big encounter.
The normal goblins can probably be minions, though I'd suggest more obviously mixing them up. Some kind of 'sticky fire' attack can probably be added to some for hurling burning objects. Having some kind of 'on a attack roll of 1, a single minion is taken out by self or friendly fire' rule is probably reasonable and fun.
For the rest, possibly just having them trigger at certain round counts within a reasonable range (putting the whole battle within the equivalent of a 20x30 area, for instance) - keeps things frantic and fun as people break off to save people.
So, monster types:
Goblin Minions (Level 1 Minion)
Goblin Arsons (Level 1 Skirmisher or Artillery)
Goblin Warchanter (Level 1-2 Controller Leader)
Goblin Commandos (Level 1-2 Skirmisher)
Goblin Dog (Level 1-2 Brute)
Possibly the goblin commando on goblin dog actually works out as one creature instead of two.
For reference, the D&D 'goblin racial' appears to be:
Goblin Tactics (immediate reaction; at-will)
Whenever a melee attack against a goblin misses, the goblin may shift 1 square.
Which seems decently in flavor (dancing away cowardly, etc)
Doing something like:
Round 1: 5 Goblin Minions (125 xp)
Round 2: 4 Goblin Minions (100 xp), 2 Goblin Arsons (200 xp), 1 Goblin Warchanter (100-125 xp)
Round 6-8: 8 Goblin Minions (200 xp), 1 Goblin Commando (100-125 xp), 1 Goblin Dog (100-125 xp)
Alternatively, make the commando fight (Die Dog Die) a completely separate fight. One option is to not use the minion mechanic at all, and use a lot more level 1 actual mobs... but I think it fits to be bowling over a lot of the initial goblins.
i am going to start 4th with converting RotRL but i suppose that i will have to wait for the books. Anyway, i would appreciate any help.
And sorry for my English.
Kobold slingers are a very good basis for having goblins that throw stuff. A good starting encounter for 4-5 characters could easily be 3 goblin slicers and 3 goblin pyros, whom each have three molotav cocktails (which function as the fire shot ability of a kobold slinger).
Each is a 1st-level skirmisher or artillery, respectively.
For the second encounter, I would start throwing in minions by removing 1-2 of the "leveled goblins" and instead add in like, 4 minions per goblin removed. If you want to remain true to the adventure, simply have them encounter more slicers and maybe a pyro (or however you want to mix it up). I think the inclusion of a bunch of minions as part of the second batch would enforce the idea that the attack is picking up speed, however.
As part of the last encounter, I would make the goblin commando at least 3rd-level (perhaps an upgraded version of a kobold dragonshield or somesuch), and get a bonus to attack and damage against non-mounted opponents (the Cavalry ability).
He might have two slicers at his side, but likely has a lot of minions that he throws around (that gain a morale bonus when close to him). Of course, you can also allow him to toss a goblin at a player, or use a goblin as a shield (like some boss monsters appear to be able to do).
It sounds like the WotC research machine suggested the average party size is 5. I dunno whether that means we should assume 4, or assume 5, or just make scaling options for either.
XP for a level 1 group is 100XP * # of people for a fairly easy encounter and you can probably get up to about 150XP * # before things start getting really difficult.
Spread out decently, I'd expect things to be quite a bit easier... especially since in the final encounter PCs will be encouraged to use some dailies since it's obvious the goblins are pretty wrapped up.
It's probably reasonable to count it the warchanter as a milestone such that the group gets an action point each after defeating that goblin group - that will also make die dog die pretty manageable.
One thing of note about minions is that they kinda 'mob' someone so if you have 4 minions together attacking one person, you make one attack roll (at some bonus) and deal 4x2 damage. At least, that's how our DM at D&D XP did it. So that might be a reason not to do a d4 each.
Could give them a kinda 'glory dance' power on getting a crit, that gives them a bonus for the remainder of the encounter. That could actually be kinda cool :)
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I haven't run any RotRL, but I've thought about the attack on Sandpoint. I think it would be fun to have the gobos find some enlarge potions. Hilarious shenanigans ensue. :D I'm imagining the big ones suddenly turning on the little ones to get back at them for past transgressions.
As for converting, you could probably base an enlarged goblin on the gnoll stats and just add in the goofy qualities like falling on their own sword with a 1.
Just figure I can prod this slightly every now and then until release day and we can get serious... so, a possible look on Goblin Pyros.
Went with skirmisher.
Keith, I appreciate your work for the conversion, I'm trully looking forward to it. Hoping that I will be able to contribute when the rules come out.
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Just figure I can prod this slightly every now and then until release day and we can get serious... so, a possible look on Goblin Pyros.
Went with skirmisher.
These guys seem really tough to me (based on the tactics section in the PF1 book). That doesn't mean I don't like them. :)
That said, I don't really like how pyromaniac works. Maybe rolling 2 attacks per ability (?) is common in 4e monsters. I need to go and look at the big list I have again. Anyway, I would suggest just making the torch hit a random goblin adjacent to the original target or to just use the attack bonus rolled the first time and leave it "random goblin in range".
There's also no rule about the dogslicer breaking on a 1, which would cause the goblin to flee in terror.
Thanks, Keith.
These guys seem really tough to me (based on the tactics section in the PF1 book). That doesn't mean I don't like them. :)
Hmm, tough in which way? 1st level 4e monsters are fairly tough, yes - I could have gone with minions, but that felt like they'd have less chance to use their abilities.
That said, I don't really like how pyromaniac works. Maybe rolling 2 attacks per ability (?) is common in 4e monsters.
It happens - it's not ultra common, nor ultra rare. In this case I went that route because using the attack rolled would likely _also_ miss an alternative goblin target. I'm okay with autohitting and killing goblin minions, but for the 'set on fire' effect it needs to hit a real person.
Of course, alternatively it could just hit the skirmisher himself.
There's also no rule about the dogslicer breaking on a 1, which would cause the goblin to flee in terror.
Nope, I went with it hurting itself instead. I intended to have the minions use that rule, but not the pyros (among other things, because the pyros _have_ another weapon)
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These guys seem really tough to me (based on the tactics section in the PF1 book). That doesn't mean I don't like them. :)Hmm, tough in which way? 1st level 4e monsters are fairly tough, yes - I could have gone with minions, but that felt like they'd have less chance to use their abilities.
I think it's an effect of not making them a different kind of minion. I don't think it's especially tough for a 4e level 1. The guys in the 3.5 version seem like 1 trick ponies who will get creamed by PCs. These guys do not.
That said, I don't really like how pyromaniac works. Maybe rolling 2 attacks per ability (?) is common in 4e monsters.It happens - it's not ultra common, nor ultra rare. In this case I went that route because using the attack rolled would likely _also_ miss an alternative goblin target. I'm okay with autohitting and killing goblin minions, but for the 'set on fire' effect it needs to hit a real person.
Of course, alternatively it could just hit the skirmisher himself.
I think I would rather have sustained randomness (i.e. some goblin just gets set on fire), but what you have is probably more fair to the monsters side. I may revise this opinion when we see what grenade weapon rules look like. ;)
There's also no rule about the dogslicer breaking on a 1, which would cause the goblin to flee in terror.Nope, I went with it hurting itself instead. I intended to have the minions use that rule, but not the pyros (among other things, because the pyros _have_ another weapon)
I agree with your logic here.
Most of my comments might be coming from not seeing this torchbearer and his minions all at once. You've explained this stuff well and convinced me. It's the kind of stuff I would want to see in a sidebar, actually. :D
I'd not be surprised if the pyro changes to just set some random goblin on fire if it misses.
I mean... we do want to make it _really_ likely at least one goblin gets set on fire. Hmmhmm.
So, yeah, I think you've convinced me on that one. Simpler design _and_ more burning goblins? Okay.
I'm interested in doing stats for pretty much everything in Burnt Offerings, ranging from goblins to sinspawn.
That being said, I would model the basic goblins after some of the kobold stuff: make some goblins as skirmishers that primarily rely on dogslicers, and other goblins like kobold slingers (artillery role) that hang back and lob flaming objects about (not just torches).
I'm interested in doing stats for pretty much everything in Burnt Offerings, ranging from goblins to sinspawn.
Your conversion blog from yesterday could probably get tossed in here. It's got lots of good points.
It is DONE.
It is of course, a draft.
This adventure could be easily divided into three mandatory portions: the goblins attack, the glassworks, and finally the goblin's lair at Thistletop. Between the goblin attack and the glassworks there is an optional series of social encounters, and there is a kind of side-dungeon right after the glassworks. Many of the battles feature goblins in some incarnation or other. If you are heartset on running Pathfinder now, I would use whatever goblin stats you can find (the monster document should have a pair of level 2 goblins), and replace them with kobold stats if you have to.
I'm going to, for the most part, assume that you are waiting until the actual rules are totally released. Creating a whole bunch of stat blocks is normally something I enjoy doing, but it would be more effecient to just give some basic guidelines on how I would populate the adventure given the limited knowledge of the new rules.
THE GOBLIN ATTACK
During this battle you end up facing off against three sets of goblins. Mainly, this is probably the most you could expect out of a typical party before they are bound to get into trouble in 3rd Edition. My play-by-post game is an indication of this: they've been squaring off against the first set of goblins for awhile, now.
Goblin Slicers (2): A goblin slicer is a basic level 1 skirmisher that lacks any special attacks, but has the goblin racial power to shift away after an opponent fails to hit it with a melee attack. I'd keep the sneak attack feature that kobold skirmishers have.
Goblin Pyros (2): Pyros would have virtually identical blocks to slicers, except that they have a crappier melee attack (and no sneak attack), instead relying on hurling flaming objects. I imagine them hucking burning debris, torches, or molotav cocktails that would function like the kobold slinger's fire attack. Goblin sharpshooters can make a ranged attack and not reveal their location (Sniper), and you could use this as the PCs run through Sandpoint from one combat hot-spot to another.
Some proposed houserules for this have been to have goblins light themselves on fire on a natural one, or to simply end up killing a random goblin minion if one is handy. Not all minions die after suffering damage (the level 6 vampire minion is an example of this), but it does evoke the morbid sense of gremlin-style comedy that Paizo emphasizes with goblins. Really, I imagine them exactly like gremlins, complete with the psychotic laugher and slapstick comedy routines.
The second set of goblins also sees a bit of modification, namely the addition of a goblin dog.
Goblin Slicer (2)
Goblin Pyro (2)
Goblin Warchanter (Level 2): I imagine the warchanter being a pseudo-warlord type creature that fills the controller (leader) role. Her whip could potentially be used to immobilize, trip, or disarm characters with range, thus allowing her to more capable fill the controller role. Her chanting could give a flat morale bonus to attack and damage rolls (like bardic music used to), and she could also have an inspire power that the kobold wyrmpriest does.
Goblin Dog: Goblins need a more capable frontline critter, and the goblin dog certainly fits the bill. I imagine this guy holding the line, as it were, while goblins caper about and darting in to make quick attacks. Kind of like a defender, but not really. A simple rule could be that while bloodied, the dog gets an attack/damage bonus, which seems to be popular for these kinds of things.
Finally, the third set. This one I modified more than the rest, because in 4th Edition you can go through more stuff before you need to stop for the night, and this is technically the last combat for the entire day. So, its a good spot to burn through an action point if you havent already, and an ideal place to use up that daily power that you hopefully held back until now.
Goblin Slicers (3)
Goblin Minions (4): You can probably get away with just using the kobold stats (again, swapping out Shifty for Goblin Tactics).
Goblin Commando: I would make this guy at least a Level 3 Soldier, since he is the BBEG of the first part of this adventure. From both playtests I've run so far, a 3rd-level non-elite, non-solo creature should be more than feasible, especially if the party still has their daily powers open. I would give this guy a Cavalry benefit (as per DDM2) that gives him a bonus to attack and damage rolls while mounted (say, +2 to hit, +5 damage). You could even allow the commando to grab a minion to take a hit, or shift a successful attack to his goblin dog. Whatever keeps him alive long enough to sufficiently mess with the party.
Goblin Dog
OPTIONAL: Social Encounters
There are basically three minor encounters that can be played, or not, depending on the DM and players. They are the Shopkeeper's Daughter, the Boar Hunt, and Monster in the Closet.
The Shopkeeper's Daughter: This is essentially a one-on-one encounter between a random character and Shayliss, the daughter of Ven Vinder. For 1st-level characters the DC 20 Diplomacy check is still pretty brutal (as is the ability to not leave any hard feelings on a DC 30 check). I'm not sure precisely how well the social encounter system works, but you might allow characters to try other things in order to escape. Shayliss isnt trying to ruin the party's reputation: she's just looking for a good time, so a Stealth check might allow a character so sneak out of the building. A Bluff check could be used to likewise talk his way out of the situation. Intimidate or Diplomacy rolled in with some kind of bribe are also feasible options. From what I've heard the main purpose of this stuff is to allow the characters to come up with clever ways to use their skills (Heal to try and trick Ven into thinking his daughter was having a seizure, or something, maybe).
The Boar Hunt: This isnt really an encounter so much as a long drawn out narrative spot of the game. The downside is that it can end up involving only one character, meaning that the rest of the gang ends up just twiddling their thumbs and doing nothing. I'd recommend glossing over it and going back and do it as a solo part, or try to have the entire party tag along. If you want, you can have the characters fight a boar of some sort. The point of this is to build of a sense of obsession for the "big reveal" later. Just try to get that across.
Monster in the Closet: This is pretty much a staightfoward fight against a single goblin. If you wanna make it interesting, make it at least 2nd-level.
THE GLASSWORKS
There are normally eight goblins here, but you could add some minions to the mix as well. You can also add in dangerous terrain here in the form of broken glass (attacks Ref Defense for 2 damage a hit).
Goblin Slicers (4): Some of them could have tongs dripping with glass. In this case the attack deals fire damage.
Goblin Pyros (4)
Goblin Minions (4)
Tsuto Kaujitsu Level 2 Skirmisher: Tsuto is the BBEG of this fight. Formerly a rogue/monk, I would keep him in the striker role with some rogue-based powers, but allow him to use an unarmed strike instead of a light blade. To maintain the monk flavor, you might swap a power to give him an attack vs. Fortitude in order to stun or stagger a character. Whatever you do, keep it simple as he isnt going to last the fight.
Catacombs of Wrath
This is a dungeon that can be tackled at any point after the glassworks. The dungeon is mainly filled with sinspawn
Sinspawn Level 1-2 Brute: There are typically encounter in pairs, and you could either increase the number to at least three at a time, perhaps four, or up their level and leave them in smaller pairs. It may even be possible to generate them as Elite monsters, which is what I recommend for the ones summoned by Erylium later.
Vargouille Level 2 Lurker: This is to me, a pretty lame joke monster. Its probably a lurker-type, and I would have its shriek ability cause paralysis that ends with a save, or maybe just lasts one round. Add in a few of these at least, or pair it with a sinspawn. I would also change its kiss into a bite that causes confusion or weakness (save ends or with an encounter duration). Maybe a character that dies from a vargouille bite becomes one after death? I dunno, but the thought of getting a literal kiss of death just rubs me wrong.
Koruvus Level 2 Elite Brute: I would stick one to two sinspawn with this guy to keep things interesting, or maybe up his level to 3. Give him a bonus to attacks and damage when bloodied, a breath weapon that recharges on a 6, and maybe a double-tap attack ability since he has three arms.
Erylium Level 2 Controller (Leader): Attack a pair of elite sinspawn to her, or at least 3-4 normal sinspawn so that she can fully utilize her powers. She should be able to use a fear effect, weaken effect (from the inflict spells), and also ramp up a creature's AC (shield of faith). Basically, make her kind of like a cleric if nothing else.
THISTLETOP
Populate all encounter hotspots with at least four goblin skirmishers, perhaps more. I'd also add or swap out some goblin dogs to keep things different. Of course, if the characters are loud then goblins in adjacent areas might hear and come running anyway.
Goblin Hunters: These are the goblins with ranger levels. I would keep them like slicers except they have bigger weapons and get the ranger's Hunter Quarry power as well. They are encountered only in one spot normally, but you might throw them in as the defacto leaders of other goblin mobs.
Gogmurt Level 3 Controller: This guy is a druid, but a low-level one so he cant change shape yet. I would give him the ability to throw balls of fire (produce flame) as well as lock down oppoents with an entangle-like power (target the Ref Defense). Thats mainly all he's good for in the fight anyhow. Allow him to move through the terrain without penalty. You could add in a more powerful goblin dog (say, 2nd-level) or a couple of goblin dogs since this should be a solo-battle.
Warchief Ripnugget Level 3 Soldier: For this encounter I'd keep it "by the books", as in use the warchanter, goblin headhunters, and the gecko all at once. This adds up to a grand total of six monsters at once, and half of them are 2nd-level or higher to boot. Depending on how encounters are worked in 4th Edition I might change this. This is the BBEG battle of Thistletop, and it should be pretty hard. I'd give him a lot of the same stuff that you gave the goblin commando way back in Sandpoint.
Giant Gecko Level 2 Brute: As a goblin dog, except these guys get a climb speed. Thats basically it.
Thistletop Dungeon
There are quite a few unique creatures in here, so its really the first time in Burnt Offerings where you get to throw things at the party that are not goblins. Since 4th Edition encourages a mix of at least one monster per character, its best to pile on goblins or yeth hounds with the major NPCs to ensure a feasible challenge (or else make them all solo creatures).
Bruzthamus Level 3 Lurker: Give him Hunter's Quarry and set him up with the goblin wives, themselves Level 2 Skirmishers.
Orik Vancaskerkin Level 3 Soldier: Stick him with 3-4 Level 2 goblin slicers or yeth hounds.
Yeth Hounds Level 2 Skirmisher: Keep these in packs of around 4 to 5 and match their levels to the party so that its a challenge.
Lyrie Akenja Level 3 Controller: I'd add some yeth hounds with her (maybe a pair of 3rd-levels) or even pair her with Orik instead (like, have her come to his aid a few rounds into the fight).
Nualia Level 3 Elite Soldier (Leader): Dont just use one yeth hound, use four or more.
Shadows Level 3 Lurker: I'm tempted to increase their number to at least four, but it depends on how well your party is faring as well as how many are in the party. If things are beginning to look grim, you might just want to remove the entire encounter.
Giant Hermit Crab Level 3 Solo Brute: I cant think of many ways to add to this encounter, so if its possible to make a good solo monsters out of this guy, you could just do that. Maybe add a few hermit crabs as Elites.
Malfeshnekor Level 4 Solo Soldier: Not sure what role a barghest is typically set for, but this guy was supposed to be some kind of leader in the past, so soldier probably suits him just fine. Keep a couple of leveled goblin solders on hand for him to command (like a pair of whatever the heck constitutes as a goblin bodyguard).
Thanks, Antioch.
And now a Goblin Warchanter
What do you think about ghouls? I'm kind of loathe to bother with ghoul fever since its very easy to resist, and very easy to cure (especially with a simple Heal check). I'd almost prefer to have it cause a persistent condition, maybe a type of poison that if you die while afflicted changes you into a ghoul.
What do you think about ghouls? I'm kind of loathe to bother with ghoul fever since its very easy to resist, and very easy to cure (especially with a simple Heal check). I'd almost prefer to have it cause a persistent condition, maybe a type of poison that if you die while afflicted changes you into a ghoul.
Sounds good - I am not a big fan of inconsequential abilities, so sure... no more ghoul fever :)
And Goblin Minion - so just the Goblin Commando / Dog and the beginning is set.
I think I saw a mistake with the strength modifier of the goblin warchanter.
Please check it out.
Another think that I noticed is that the RoTR is made for up to four 16 level characters. Having in mind that fourth edition is designed till lvl 30, I am wondering whether we should decide up to which lvl the conversion will take the PCs.
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Another think that I noticed is that the RoTR is made for up to four 16 level characters. Having in mind that fourth edition is designed till lvl 30, I am wondering whether we should decide up to which lvl the conversion will take the PCs.
My guess is this will be sort of difficult to do before we see more monsters/the PHB/etc. Based on math alone... 22-24 would probably be the right range.
I think I saw a mistake with the strength modifier of the goblin warchanter.
Please check it out.
4e monsters add 1/2 their level to their displayed modifiers so you can use the number for ability checks/attacks, other skills. So in this case, it's 8 gives -1, plus 1 for level 2 = +0.
I think I saw a mistake with the strength modifier of the goblin warchanter.
Please check it out.
4e monsters add 1/2 their level to their displayed modifiers so you can use the number for ability checks/attacks, other skills. So in this case, it's 8 gives -1, plus 1 for level 2 = +0.
Thanks Keith for the clarification.
Well, now the problem is with intelligence which is 8 as well but has a -1 modifier.
Another think that I noticed is that the RoTR is made for up to four 16 level characters. Having in mind that fourth edition is designed till lvl 30, I am wondering whether we should decide up to which lvl the conversion will take the PCs.My guess is this will be sort of difficult to do before we see more monsters/the PHB/etc. Based on math alone... 22-24 would probably be the right range.
** spoiler omitted **
Yes, the 24 range seems nice (6 levels for each module)
Thanks Keith for the clarification.
Well, now the problem is with intelligence which is 8 as well but has a -1 modifier.
Hah! Thanks.
Ah 4th Edition monsters...all the complexities and none of the jazz.
I'm waiting on seeing encounters with: Goblin Gourmet Chefs, Kobold Rock Eaters, Goblin Cyros (opposite of Pyros), and maybe throw in a Hobgoblin Slave Beater alongside a Hobgoblin Slave Driver (cause in 4e you need a specific creature for, well, everything) and led by a Bugbear S&M Specialist.
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Yes, the 24 range seems nice (6 levels for each module)
(4/module) :D
It may turn out that high level magic is total shenanigans in 4e, which might make some of the BBEGs a lower|higher level encounter. I really do think we'll have to wait until we see a PHB|DMG|MM. I know some of the thinking in 4E is designing creatures with a small set of cool abilities, but that really does seem to do a big disservice to some of the bad dudes in the last couple of ROTRL modules. I think it would be handy to put out a "Bad Guy as PC" sidebar alongside a simplified stat block for some of the baddies. I fully admit this is because I don't want to see the big bads neutered like 4E dragons (where's my spellz?!), though I could probably be convinced otherwise if the simplified stat block was... compelling.
Also, my current stance is I'm not planning on converting to 4E, but I hope I can help those who do want to.
Given that this thread is specifically aimed at making a Paizo product more useful to a greater segment of fans and not an attempt to glorify or sell 4E, threadcrapping it is particularly shameful. There are plenty of other threads to do so, and let's please keep this one solely to the conversion.
Ah 4th Edition monsters...all the complexities and none of the jazz.
I'm waiting on seeing encounters with: Goblin Gourmet Chefs, Kobold Rock Eaters, Goblin Cyros (opposite of Pyros), and maybe throw in a Hobgoblin Slave Beater alongside a Hobgoblin Slave Driver (cause in 4e you need a specific creature for, well, everything) and led by a Bugbear S&M Specialist.
Wow, classy!
Here is a thread that is totally non-provocative to anyone and, yet, you cannot seem to help yourself.
Paizo is sticking with 3.5. Please enjoy their hard work, but in all seriousness and kindness please stop harassing people who may actually be interested in 4e.
By the by, keep up the conversions!
Nice idea for a thread. I'll be happy to participate in this process... as soon as I have my 4e books.
Yes, the 24 range seems nice (6 levels for each module)
(4/module) :D
Hell, what was I thinking. :(
Ah 4th Edition monsters...all the complexities and none of the jazz.
I'm waiting on seeing encounters with: Goblin Gourmet Chefs, Kobold Rock Eaters, Goblin Cyros (opposite of Pyros), and maybe throw in a Hobgoblin Slave Beater alongside a Hobgoblin Slave Driver (cause in 4e you need a specific creature for, well, everything) and led by a Bugbear S&M Specialist.
Dude, go make a separate thread so you can rant about how much you hate 4th edition or make use of the, literally hundreds, of threads on this part of the message board that already address that topic. If you have no intention of actually contributing to the project going on on this thread or the handful like on this part of the board and just want to tell people that you hate 4th edition then do it somewhere else.
Edit: Oops looks like my sentiment has already been more then adequately addressed.
Nice idea for a thread. I'll be happy to participate in this process... as soon as I have my 4e books.
I actually started this thread just because I wanted another constructive thread on this board... but yeah, most stuff just has to wait.
I enjoy thinking a little bit about how to get some of the encounter concepts down, maybe throw out ideas for magic items, etc. And I'm making some monsters anyways (daily column) so I might as well do some for the paizo monster minis.
Well, except the mounted guy. Really not sure how mounted monsters will work so not really bothering at the moment.
One interesting note is that people _are_ playing some 4e now with the pregens, as limited as that is, so in theory if we got a working conversion of the start of Burnt Offerings people could do that in pseudo-4e for fun. Even if we had to change half of it later.
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In 4E terms, there's no time for a 5 minute rest so it may be reasonable to think of this in terms of one big encounter.
Please note that a short rest, as covered in the playtest rules at D&DXP, is a 5 minute rest which allows players a chance to regain their encounter powers and use healing surges to heal up. I would suggest not treating the goblin-attack chain of encounters as a single big encounter but instead run as is and allow player a breather between fights, though only short rests and no extended rests.
I reckon this would be a perfect opportunity to show to your players the strengths of the 4th edition.
In 4E terms, there's no time for a 5 minute rest so it may be reasonable to think of this in terms of one big encounter.Please note that a short rest, as covered in the playtest rules at D&DXP, is a 5 minute rest which allows players a chance to regain their encounter powers and use healing surges to heal up. I would suggest not treating the goblin-attack chain of encounters as a single big encounter but instead run as is and allow player a breather between fights, though only short rests and no extended rests.
I reckon this would be a perfect opportunity to show to your players the strengths of the 4th edition.
I'd find it awfully odd to pause for five to ten minutes in the middle of the goblin raid on the town... especially while they're actively trying to burn things, steal babies, kill dogs, etc.
The main loss is in encounter power uses, but you're also okay with everyone blowing all their dailies for this encounter so that helps you out. The DM can consider an optional short rest after the warchanter fight if it's needed before the commando, but I actually suspect that a nice chaotic 12-20 goblins trickle chaotically in and fight the PCs affair will show off 4e just fine...
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Im sure it doesnt have to mean that the players are having a sit down chat and cuppa for five or ten minutes while all hell breaks out around them. I imagine its more like a chance to get a their breath back, wipe the blood from their eyes, etc. even if that happens while your guys are jogging to the next combat.
In system terms it is a way to reset the characters abilities between engagements and I don't think this should be taken away. From a DM standpoint we are designing each encounter for a full strength party, with each encounter pushing the party to the limit. The stamina of the party is factored into the Healing Surges per day so at some point the party will get tired.
I would intend to keep throwing quick combats at the party until you reach that critical point then spring on them the final fight.
Jogging? No, can't do that while resting.
Thankfully, the start of Burnt Offerings actually strikes me as _better_ as a big staggered encounter (otherwise you need to use far more effective goblins or use a horde more of them), so the hurried nature works fine.
Better for the story not to pause for 5 minutes? Check.
More exciting to have it start off fast paced? Check.
Only downside is that they can't use their encounters twice... _but_ they can use their dailies safely. Not like they'll be fighting anything else that day.
Were not really going to be able to have any real hope on deciding whether or not its in the mechanics and spirit of the rules to let the PCs get their per encounter powers back until we see the rule books.
At that point it will hopefully be clear whether one should get their per encounter battles if the situation is hectic but broken up. Of course the rule books might be unclear and then we can have a nice argument but its sort of wasteful to have a full on argument only to have the rules come along and actually clarify the situation.
Yep - if a rest is needed for pacing, I'd put it after the warchanter fight, but before die dog die. Give the impression that things have calmed down, then start things back up.
If you need to buff up the fights to spread them out more, should probably add at least some more non-minions, especially to the first fight.
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Were not really going to be able to have any real hope on deciding whether or not its in the mechanics and spirit of the rules to let the PCs get their per encounter powers back until we see the rule books.
At that point it will hopefully be clear whether one should get their per encounter battles if the situation is hectic but broken up. Of course the rule books might be unclear and then we can have a nice argument but its sort of wasteful to have a full on argument only to have the rules come along and actually clarify the situation.
You are right, of course, we can't make any strong cases for either strategy until the rulebooks come out. And you will get no full-on argument from me, I respect you all too much. But we do have a set of playtest rules which give us a good indication of how the 4e game is going to be structured.
Were not really going to be able to have any real hope on deciding whether or not its in the mechanics and spirit of the rules to let the PCs get their per encounter powers back until we see the rule books.
At that point it will hopefully be clear whether one should get their per encounter battles if the situation is hectic but broken up. Of course the rule books might be unclear and then we can have a nice argument but its sort of wasteful to have a full on argument only to have the rules come along and actually clarify the situation.
You are right, of course, we can't make any strong cases for either strategy until the rulebooks come out. And you will get no full-on argument from me, I respect you all too much. But we do have a set of playtest rules which give us a good indication of how the 4e game is going to be structured.
I suppose that the answer to this might be how much xp are needed for a character to level up and when we want the leveling to happen.
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Another think that I noticed is that the RoTR is made for up to four 16 level characters. Having in mind that fourth edition is designed till lvl 30, I am wondering whether we should decide up to which lvl the conversion will take the PCs.
There may be a paradigm shift at levels 11 and 21 warranting a different style of play. The characters playing low level heroes in the Hero 1-10 levels and high level heroes in the Paragon levels 11-20. It may be better (again with the speculation) to remodel an adventure path as Heroic or Paragon taking players from 1 through to 10 or from 11 through to 20 etc.
This sort of approach would allow DM's with a solution to the question can I use the same characters in my next Adventure path? Well you could if you had played a Heroic AP and the next was a Paragon AP.
Another think that I noticed is that the RoTR is made for up to four 16 level characters. Having in mind that fourth edition is designed till lvl 30, I am wondering whether we should decide up to which lvl the conversion will take the PCs.There may be a paradigm shift at levels 11 and 21 warranting a different style of play. The characters playing low level heroes in the Hero 1-10 levels and high level heroes in the Paragon levels 11-20. It may be better (again with the speculation) to remodel an adventure path as Heroic or Paragon taking players from 1 through to 10 or from 11 through to 20 etc.
This sort of approach would allow DM's with a solution to the question can I use the same characters in my next Adventure path? Well you could if you had played a Heroic AP and the next was a Paragon AP.
That's a pretty interesting point. Conversion-wise I mean. Earlier in the thread there was speculation about what level the RotRL ran to. The guess (mathematically anyway) was low 20s. But you are stepping into Epic destiny there. Do things switch up so dramatically when you go from Heroic to Paragon and from Paragon to Epic? Would it make sense to try and tone down the whole thing to fit into levels 1-10? I think, given the shear number of encounters, that would be almost impossible. So does that mean once the party reaches level 11 do we need to do something quite different with the adventure path?
Food for thought, anyway...
Ending it at 20 with the big bad being an epic caster might make sense when the rules are out. As things go, the power levels for casters in 3e DO change significantly at 13, so pushing the campaign into 4e epic realms may be "appropriately flavoured" for the threats in books 5 and 6.
Mathematically we have a situation where the PCs get 3 levels over the period where they used to get 2. From the RotRLs threads it seems most players started PF#6 at 15th and ended at 17th so the equivalent would be something along the lines of the PCs starting PF#6 at 21st and ending at around 24th.
We really have two choices in regards to this and there are costs and benefits for both options.
The XP system is apparently keyed so that what took a character to 20th in 3.5 will take a 4E character to 30th. That means we may find it easier from an XP mechanics angle to let this go to 24th.
However we also have to deal with flavour effects. RotRL skirted the edge of epic (players where just getting 9th level magic right at the end) but never really entered Epic territory. It may be that the story begins to break down with 'Once per day, when you die...' type powers.
I suppose this is another one of those things where we'll have to hash out if flavour should trump mechanics or vice versa when we actually have the books in our hands and can get a feel for what this will mean at the table.
I'd not be surprised if aiming for it to end around 20th works out pretty well. In many cases, we'll be able to combine fights, so it's easy to tweak XP to a certain extent.
Not having to worry about epic destinies is probably a bonus...