So I'm finally going to get to be a player for the first time in the better part of a year. It will be a bit unconventional- I'm going to be the only player, but running three characters (I feel like giving myself a roleplaying challenge). I'm thinking about trying an arcane archer for one of them. I've looked at the class before, and never really been impressed with the cruch. The fluff interests me, however. The race will be elf (no fancy subraces or anything; just a plain ol' elf). I'm looking at ranger as the martial class leading into it. It's not likely to matter, but in the interest of disclosure, I'll be trading the animal companion for a rogue's trapfinding ability. I think I'd like to use sorcerer as the spellcasting class; another of the characters I'm creating will be a wizard, a conjurer loosely based on the warlock class from WoW. I'd like to avoid roll and role overlap as much as possible.
What's a good build given these parameters? What are good tactics as far as equipment to buy, spells to learn, and feats to take? As previously stated, the crunch has never impressed me. But I've heard pretty good reviews from other people a number of times, and I'm curious what they see in the class as so appealing. Aesthetics are as important as mechanics and stats here; cool character concepts (such as themes for equipment or spells or fighting style) are also welcome and encouraged in your posts!
Arcane Archer build:
Ranger- add Disable Device to class skills, remove Handle Animal; add Trapfinding at 1st level, remove Wild Empathy; add Uncanny Dodge at 4th and Improved Uncanny Dodge at 8th, remove Animal Companion. You could also trade Favored Enemy for Sneak Attack...
Sorcerer- use a Battle Sorcerer and take a free feat from the list of fighter feats, instead of proficiency in a martial weapon, at 1st level; trade Summon Familiar for the Dark Companion alternate ability for the hexblade in PHB II.
Either use a wood elf (as elf in PHB plus +2 Str and -2 Int and favored class of ranger instead of wizard), or try to get permission to change the favored class to ranger. Start with ranger and take Point Blank Shot; at second level, remain a ranger and take Combat Style (Archery) for Rapid Shot; at third level, switch to battle sorcerer and take Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus (Longbow/Composite Longbow). You have now met all the prerequisites of the arcane archer PrC except the +6 BAB. I'd recommend switching to arcane archer at ranger 3/battle sorcerer 4 to gain a 2nd level spell (you could also go for ranger 2/battle sorcerer 6 for a 3rd level spell, if you can avoid multiclassing penalties). Concentrate on area spells, missiles, and rays to get maximum effect from Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and the Imbue Arrow Ability. A +1 composite longbow built for Str with a lot of special abilities is most useful to you because of the Enhance Arrow ability.
Conjurer build:
The first place I'd look is at the Conjurer Variants in the SRD. I'm not familiar with the WoW warlock, but if it's not a summoner type, the SRD variants won't help much, though.
So I'm finally going to get to be a player for the first time in the better part of a year. It will be a bit unconventional- I'm going to be the only player, but running three characters (I feel like giving myself a roleplaying challenge). I'm thinking about trying an arcane archer for one of them. I've looked at the class before, and never really been impressed with the cruch. The fluff interests me, however. The race will be elf (no fancy subraces or anything; just a plain ol' elf). I'm looking at ranger as the martial class leading into it. It's not likely to matter, but in the interest of disclosure, I'll be trading the animal companion for a rogue's trapfinding ability. I think I'd like to use sorcerer as the spellcasting class; another of the characters I'm creating will be a wizard, a conjurer loosely based on the warlock class from WoW. I'd like to avoid roll and role overlap as much as possible.
What's a good build given these parameters? What are good tactics as far as equipment to buy, spells to learn, and feats to take? As previously stated, the crunch has never impressed me. But I've heard pretty good reviews from other people a number of times, and I'm curious what they see in the class as so appealing. Aesthetics are as important as mechanics and stats here; cool character concepts (such as themes for equipment or spells or fighting style) are also welcome and encouraged in your posts!
On the AA I would go fighter, all those feats are great. Feat wise I've always played them as an archer that can do some magic, so I picked mostly bow related feats.
On the wizard, I would say load up on neco spells. Maybe look into the Demonologist PrC in the BoVD. I swear there is a feat meta maybe that adds effect plus the spells damage like sickened, shakened etc.
Fizz
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Ranger- add Disable Device to class skills, remove Handle Animal; add Trapfinding at 1st level, remove Wild Empathy; add Uncanny Dodge at 4th and Improved Uncanny Dodge at 8th, remove Animal Companion. You could also trade Favored Enemy for Sneak Attack...
So basically you want him to turn the Ranger into the Scout, DC? ^_^ Seeing as the Scout gets everything you just mentioned. Only downside is it would take a few levels more to qualify.
On the AA I would go fighter, all those feats are great. Feat wise I've always played them as an archer that can do some magic, so I picked mostly bow related feats.On the wizard, I would say load up on neco spells. Maybe look into the Demonologist PrC in the BoVD. I swear there is a feat meta maybe that adds effect plus the spells damage like sickened, shakened etc.
Fizz
If your using PHB2 and a few Complete books, especially Complete Fighter then I'd go Fighter and never leave. Skip the Arcane Archer - its special bonus abilities just are not that impressive compared to what you can do with an archery centred build and about a million feats.
If your using PHB2 and a few Complete books, especially Complete Fighter then I'd go Fighter and never leave. Skip the Arcane Archer - its special bonus abilities just are not that impressive compared to what you can do with an archery centred build and about a million feats.
On the AA I would go fighter, all those feats are great. Feat wise I've always played them as an archer that can do some magic, so I picked mostly bow related feats.On the wizard, I would say load up on neco spells. Maybe look into the Demonologist PrC in the BoVD. I swear there is a feat meta maybe that adds effect plus the spells damage like sickened, shakened etc.
Fizz
This touches more on another thing I was looking for. I'm curious what people think of the Arcane Archer, as well as good builds for it. Is it a good PrC? Why? Is it a bad one? What makes it so? How can it be made better? Given the guidelines I laid out, what are good feats and such for me to pursue to make the experience fun?
The decision to go Arcane Archer is as much to do something novel and for visuals (I think of the enchanted arrows as glowing with magical power) as it is for statistical effectiveness (moreso, actually, since I'm pretty determined to follow this option now, regardless of actual metagame considerations). I see the character as possessing the powers of a storm, taking spells like gust of wind and wind wall, etc. I'm thinking of having him pick up boots of flying when possible, and eventually I'd like him to wind up with a +1 spell-storing shocking burst thundering keen longbow (although I may take improved critical instead).
I'm leaning towards ranger 3/sorcerer 6 before taking my first PrC level. I'll try to mainly focus on spells that will scale well over time and still fit my storm theme (any suggestions?). I may take some of the fey heritage feats, or make up some of my own to continue with said theme.
I also can't really say that I'm interested in all the variant class options (sorry). I have switched the animal companion for trapfinding, but that's just so that traps aren't uber-lethal (or the DM can't in good conscience use them), and because I am not a huge fan of animal companions (familiars I'm cool with, however).
Further thoughts, comments, suggestions?
So basically you want him to turn the Ranger into the Scout, DC?Ranger- add Disable Device to class skills, remove Handle Animal; add Trapfinding at 1st level, remove Wild Empathy; add Uncanny Dodge at 4th and Improved Uncanny Dodge at 8th, remove Animal Companion. You could also trade Favored Enemy for Sneak Attack...
Sort of, but with full BAB, all martial weapons, and the ability to cast spells at 4th level. :-D
I recommend battle sorcerer over the normal sorcerer for the ability to cast arcane spells without a chance of failure while wearing light armor. The improved BAB also means you can afford to focus a bit more on magic.
The Dark Companion is basically like a "spirit ally" that you can use to impose a -2 penalty to AC and saves on a target within 120 ft. I feel it fits better with the "magical harrier" concept that I was focusing on. For a "storm archer," you might be better trying to convert the stormlord PrC from Complete Divine.
Arcane Archer is, IMO, one of the weakest prestige classes ever built. The "enhance arrow" ability is easily simulated with a fighter/sorcerer/eldritch knight build and a greater magic weapon spell, and the latter's broad spell selection and vastly higher caster level more than makes up for the few other abilities that the AA gets ("Ooh... I can put a spell on an arrow!" Well, so can a wizard with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat).
Outside of the ability to add a spell to the arrow this class is pretty weak. Half the time the benefit gained is making a characters arrows magical - the problem here is that the character will probably have a magical bow with a higher enhancement bonus at least until we are talking about +4 or +5. Most of the rest of the abilities are kind of neat but once per day is not much. A good straight fighter build will hit harder targets for more damage, will fire a lot more arrows and still has lots of spare feats for some really cool tricks like ranged pin.
The build also brutally suffers from the problem of multi-classing with casters. You can stick your spells on your arrows but once you start taking arcane archer levels your spells stop improving. Your spell choices are very limited with the ranger but if you go wizard or sorcerer then your BAB is such that your new main schtick (shooting arrows) is lousy. You have a hard time hitting.
Arcane Archer is, IMO, one of the weakest prestige classes ever built. The "enhance arrow" ability is easily simulated with a fighter/sorcerer/eldritch knight build and a greater magic weapon spell, and the latter's broad spell selection and vastly higher caster level more than makes up for the few other abilities that the AA gets ("Ooh... I can put a spell on an arrow!" Well, so can a wizard with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat).
The STUPIDEST thing about this class is that you stop gaining spellcasting progression. WHAF~!!!? What's the point of being able to put some spell-whammy on an arrow if the only spell you can put on it is obscuring mist. Poop.
We house ruled this class so that you gain a level in your spellcasting progression from a base class as you advance. It made this a LOT more fun to play.
So would house ruling in a progression, as Nick did, make the class overpowered? I'm thinking perhaps 1/2 casting progression. Perhaps more? I would tend to think the balance would be fine, since, as Jeremy commented, the 1/day use limitation on so many abilities is pretty strict. I'm pretty sure my DM would approve of such a change; he feels the class is underpowered, too. (And, for the record, so do I; but I hit a concept I like and am up for a challenge, so I'm doing it regardless).
I've never played an AA, but I've thought about it quite a bit (same as Master Transmogrifist, Arcane Hierophant, Dervish, etc.). If you're really going to rely on archery, I'd give serious thought to picking up two levels of Order of the Bow Initiate from Complete Warrior first for Close Combat Shot. Drawing AoO's every time you play to your strength ain't good. (Any other ways to do this? Only other option I know is to focus in an exotic bow and take a level of Exotic Weapon Master.)
I think the main feature of this class (the escalating enhancement bonus to arrows) was much more useful in 3E when it was just the properties of the arrows that were applied against DR, not the bow's, and DR included weapon pluses. With bow's features applying against DR, and amount of pluses irrelevant, and the advent of all the feats of PHB2, I'd agree that a fighter can be a more effective archer than an AA, but that's no reason not to do it.
Arcane archer gets full BAB, so full spellcasting would be too much. Eldritch Knight gets 9/10 spellcasting, full BAB, 1 bonus feat, and NO other special abilities... and their HD are d6's instead of d8's. So 9/10 spellcasting for AA would make it significantly better than EK in all categories. Therefore, 3/4 is about the max I'd give it, and, really, 1/2 seems closer to the mark (compare with the bladesinger, or the spellsword, for example).
The decision to go Arcane Archer is as much to do something novel and for visuals (I think of the enchanted arrows as glowing with magical power) as it is for statistical effectiveness (moreso, actually, since I'm pretty determined to follow this option now, regardless of actual metagame considerations). I see the character as possessing the powers of a storm, taking spells like gust of wind and wind wall, etc. I'm thinking of having him pick up boots of flying when possible, and eventually I'd like him to wind up with a +1 spell-storing shocking burst thundering keen longbow (although I may take improved critical instead).
It sounds to me like you're trying to create a magic-based version of DC's Green Arrow, which is a great character concept. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a good published version of that concept in D&D (at least, not in v3.5). The Arcane Archer has the pronounced spellcasting flaws as mentioned earlier, and Order of the Bow Initiate is basically a bow-wielding sharpshooter.
I think your best bet may be to sit down with your GM and hash out a simple feat that would let a 6th level ranger (or better yet, some other ranged weapon specialist) enchant arrows with spells of x level y/times per day (x or y increases 3-4 times over levels 6-20). In fair exchange, give up one or more of the 3 bonus feats that you'd get from the Combat Style progression. IMO, this solution better fits the character concept you describe than a multi-classed Arcane Archer.
(Can someone explain why it's *Arcane* Archer, since Rangers seem to be the intended base class, but they only have divine magic? As-written, it's more like a martial-buff for arcane spellcasters who tend to use ranged weapons at low levels... And why do rangers get such a crappy spell progression, anyway? *grumble*)
Arcane archer gets full BAB, so full spellcasting would be too much. Eldritch Knight gets 9/10 spellcasting, full BAB, 1 bonus feat, and NO other special abilities... and their HD are d6's instead of d8's. So 9/10 spellcasting for AA would make it significantly better than EK in all categories. Therefore, 3/4 is about the max I'd give it, and, really, 1/2 seems closer to the mark (compare with the bladesinger, or the spellsword, for example).
You really think so? I thought about it after posting this, and realized that if I went Ranger 6/ Sorcerer 1 (which is my current inclination, to preserve BAB), I'd be getting out of the class at 17th character level with the casting powers of a 1st level sorcerer. Craptastic. If the PrC offered 1/2 spellcasting progression, I'd get out at caster level 6. Worthless. At 3/4, I'd be caster level 8. Yipee.
At 9/10, I'd be getting out with a caster level of 10. Getting better. At full casting progression, one could come out with a caster level of 11. With a wizard, that would be 6th level spells. 3 levels behind one's single-classed peers. With a sorcerer, it would be the same (3 level discrepency), but 5th level spells rather than 6th. If the final 3 character levels (assuming the campaign doesn't go Epic) are sorcerer, that nets me 14th caster level, which is 7th level spells. Only 2 behind. Not bad. BAB would be +18/+12/+6/+1. Not too bad, either.
Compare with an eldritch knight. Assuming 1 level of fighter and 6 levels of sorcerer (to make the comparison with my planned build more valid), he comes out at character level 17 and caster level 15. Even if the last few levels were all fighter, it would still beat the arcane archer by 1 caster level. If the final levels are sorcerer, he gets to caster level 18 and has access to 9th level spells. During all this, his base attack is +15/+10/+5. So there's the trade, I guess- eldritch knights are likely to come out with lower base attack bonuses than arcane archers.
Regardless, I currently don't think the arcane archer would be overpowered at all with full caster progression- one must consider what it takes to get into the PrC, as well. I'd like to know what you all think about this, and I'll run it by my DM as well.
So there's the trade, I guess- eldritch knights are likely to come out with lower base attack bonuses than arcane archers.
Yes, lower attack bonus (and one less iterative attack), lower HD (which has to count for something), and no special abilities. 9/10 caster level added to the AA as written, in my opinion, produces a prestige class that is better than all of the published "gish" ones (with the exception of Abjurant Champion, but let's not go there). I can't see that anyone would ever take 10 levels of eldritch knight after that.
one must consider what it takes to get into the PrC, as well.
True enough. Minimum for AA, by my reckoning, is Ftr 5/Sor 2 (7th level)--higher if you want a better caster level. Minimum for EldK is Ftr 1/Sor 6 (also 7th level)--higher if you want a better BAB. Those seem to balance fairly well. Of course, AA also requires 3 feats, but since those are feats you were already planning on taking anyway, I can't see that that's a real loss.
If I were the DM, I might be persuaded to go 8/10 as a compromise between your 9/10 and my 7/10 (say, no improvement at 1st and 3rd), and see how that goes, as a trial run. No way I'd allow full, though.
I've talked to my DM, and he's thinking somewhere between 3/4 and 9/10. I'm cool with that, but just for the sake of continuing the conversation, I would still say the EK has a favorable build over the AA. It's more important to keep up one's spell progression and CL than it is BAB, IMO.
I would still say the EK has a favorable build over the AA. It's more important to keep up one's spell progression and CL than it is BAB, IMO.
Ignoring the AA's class abilities, yes, you're absolutely right -- especially because in 3.5e the enhanced arrows are sort of meaningless. But if you also factor in the couple of AA class abilities that do retain their usefulness (imbue arrow, etc.) and the HD size, though...
Maybe we're looking at this all wrong. If we redesign AA from the ground up, starting with EK... keep the 9/10 caster level, full BAB, and d6 HD of the EK. Trade the EK bonus feat for one of the AA class abilities. Finally, use your greater magic weapon spell to mimic the AA arrow enhancement class feature, almost for free, as it were. Now you're mechanically an eldritch knight, but you've got almost everything the AA plus spellcasting variant had.
I begin to see your point more clearly. I had forgotten that there was no use limit on imbue arrow. The ability is fairly worthless as per the RAW, since the character is unlikely to have any useful area spells. However, if a spellcasting progression is included, the ability has the potential to increase in power dramatically. That does change considerations about the balance of the proposed alterations.
Wow, just noticed that AA also gets 4 skill points instead of 2 for the EldKt.
Imagine using arcane eye to see around a corner into the BBEG's HQ, where he's surrounded by his elite bodyguard. You then imbue an arrow with horrid wilting (if we houserule decent spell progression) and launch it around the corner (using seeker arrow), to strike the BBEG and damage all his bodyguards before you even enter the room. Then you step in and fire an arrow at every single target in sight. Luckily, phase arrow and seeker arrow are 1/day tricks, but they can hardlty be discounted the way "enhance arrow" can.
With no spellcasting progression, the class is totally worthless; no one will argue that. Adding full casting tips the scale much too far in the other direction, in my opinion. Half casting might be OK (or even as high as 3/4 if you're in a high-difficulty campaign with a smaller number of players (4 or less)).
especially because in 3.5e the enhanced arrows are sort of meaningless.
Why do you say that? At 16th level you've got unlimited +5 arrows, and it requires no special action on your part to make 'em. That's better than any three archery feats put together IMHO. Everyone else is coughing up 1,000 gp for each of those arrows.
especially because in 3.5e the enhanced arrows are sort of meaningless.Why do you say that? At 16th level you've got unlimited +5 arrows, and it requires no special action on your part to make 'em. That's better than any three archery feats put together IMHO. Everyone else is coughing up 1,000 gp for each of those arrows.
The thing is a 16th level character has a lot of money - probably enough to buy a +5 bow. Since magic arrows don't stack with a magic bow its not as useful as it might at first appear. Though thinking about it I suppose you could use the money to buy a bow +1 with all sorts of other enhancements on it and rely on the Arcane Archers ability to get high plus arrows from class abilities. That'd give you one heck of a bow.
Since magic arrows don't stack with a magic bow its not as useful as it might at first appear. Though thinking about it I suppose you could use the money to buy a bow +1 with all sorts of other enhancements on it and rely on the Arcane Archers ability to get high plus arrows from class abilities. That'd give you one heck of a bow.
You got it. Don't get stuff that doesn't stack. With your +5 enhancement coming from the arrows, get yourself that +1 speed exit wound (CW) bow and a strength-boosting item.
Since magic arrows don't stack with a magic bow its not as useful as it might at first appear. Though thinking about it I suppose you could use the money to buy a bow +1 with all sorts of other enhancements on it and rely on the Arcane Archers ability to get high plus arrows from class abilities. That'd give you one heck of a bow.You got it. Don't get stuff that doesn't stack. With your +5 enhancement coming from the arrows, get yourself that +1 speed exit wound (CW) bow and a strength-boosting item.
Bingo. That was my plan all along. Eventually, I'd like to wind up with a +1 spell-storing shocking burst thundering keen composite longbow (unknown Str bonus at this point), which is itself an extremely powerful (and costly) weapon. Then I'll be shooting with a +5 enhancement bonus on top of that.
Re: bard as the base class. Perhaps that's the best option mechanically/powergame-wise (and I don't mean to disparage powergaming; see the above about my planned bow), but it just doesn't fit with my concept of the class. Thanks for the suggestion, however, and I shall definitely keep that in mind for future considerations.
Saern, here's a few bits from my notes on ranged attack-based PCs from over the (recent) years, for your consideration:
Feats of interest: Able Sniper (Races of the Wild), Woodland Archer (Races of the Wild, tactical), Greater Manyshot (XPH, kinda unbelievable), Improved Rapid Shot (Complete Warrior), Improved Diversion (Complete Adventurer, excellent for snipers), Deadeye Shot (PHBII, nice if you have any ability to do sneak attack damage), and Penetrating Shot (PHBII). I recall "Shot on the Run" or something similar, and "Power Shot," but can't find either right now. I'd probably go with the Greater Manyshot tree and throw in Improved Initiative, and that probably fills all your pre-epic feat slots.
Spells: Arrow Mind (Complete Adventurer - absolute must-have)
Items: Check out Races of the Wild for additional arrow types, the elvencraft bow, and the swordbow.
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Just going from your first post, here's what I'd probably do with an arcane archer, given your parameters:
The word for this guys is CANNY. He's got lots of tricks up his sleeve, and a wide spread of abilities. He's also smart and stealthy and likes to stay back out of the fighting where possible. Definitely canny. I'd toss some scout and unseen seer into the mix. Because your AA levels don't advance your casting, you need to be really good with low-level spells, or you need to toss something else in there.
This guy should also be confident and self-reliant. The consummate professional. He's got a plan, a solution, and a contingency for everything. This can be friendly and enthusiastic, grim and driven, or haughty and arrogant as you prefer.
He'll want some lightweight armor (twilight, shadows, and silent moves), a handy haversack, a gnome steam bow if one's available (arms & equipment guide), a number of different kinds of arrow (cold iron, silver, adamantine, alchemical, different energy types, ones with compartments for scrolls, etc. A quiver of ehlonna works well for this. From there, you'll want a wand bracer, a rapier, longsword, or elven thinblade in case someone does get close, a couple of daggers, rope, grapling hook, and the like. It should all be meticulously tied down and organized so he can get to it quickly in a fight. A couple of bandoleers, belt pouches, the quiver of ehlonna and the haversack on his back, the sword in a horizontal back sheath to keep it out of the way, etc.
Craft skills are good, particularly craft (bowmaking) to make his own arrows and craft (alchemy) to make alchemical versions.
For the actual build, mixing in some levels of scout and unseen seer seems like a good idea. You'll get trapfinding, skirmish damage and a few nifty other abilities besides. Forspells, well, true strike, invisibility, expeditious retreat, dimension door, etc. will be your friend. The swift ambusher feat from complete scoundrel would be a nice addition.
If you do wind up going sorcerer instead of wizard, I'd make sure the following spells were on his list:
0: Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Detect Magic
1: True Strike, Shield
2: Protection from Arrows, Invisibility, Spider Climb
As far as fighting styles go, well you could go two routes: he could treat his bow like a fine precision instrument (much like a sniper rifle) and be very careful about damaging it, or he could affix a few blades to the ends and slash with it in melee...
Any of that get the ol' juices flowing?
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Timespike, the daggers and swords aren't even necessary. An elvencraft longbow will serve him much better, as it's a different damage type, and he doesn't have to put it down for another weapon. And his objective is to not get in melee period anyway.
As for spells, I recommend Acid Splash. A ranged touch attack that ignores spell resistance and counts for Skirmish damage. Useful for those tanks with high AC low touch.
I should add that I don't allow other source books than core rules, so eldritch knight and friends wouldn't even be an alternative.
I should probably point out that Eldritch Knight is in the SRD and DMG, so it's "core rules" as well.
I'm not really one for re-tooling classes and their inner workings, but I have played many an archer and have some advice.
Scrap the shortbow, longbow, and Gnome steambow. Get a comp. greatbow. A base 1d10 with and range increment of 130' is nothing to sneer at. (its downside? You can't use it while mounted... oh no)Also, have it made from Serran wood. Instant extraordinary Ghost touch ability on any arrow you fire, and it only costs 4k. All of the standard benifits of Ghost touch, minus the enhancement bonus that can be better spent on Exit Wounds or Acidic Burst. (My personal favorites)
As noted above, the wider selection of arrows you have, the better.
Most of the noteworthy feats have been covered, save for Efficient Pull. It allows the arher to use a bow with a higher strength rating than they could normally use. (Saves from having to increase STR as much)
Personally, I like taking the Zen archery route. That way, pumping my WIS not only boosts my accuracy, but my Spot checks as well. (again, this saves valuable abilty score boosts that could be better applied for the required spellcasting score or more WIS)
-Kurocyn