Did anyone defeat the black dragon at D&D XP? How did you do it?
With everything said about positioning in 4th edition, I would think there is no way the pregen party could defeat the black dragon.
I'm going to assume the cave he's in is at least 15 feet high. Why? Because dragons aren't stupid, and if he's going to be able to defend himself well he's going to want a lair he can at least fly in. Or better yet, climb up to and cling onto the cave wall and unleash his breath weapon.
(Alternatively, to give the flavor of a black dragon the area should have water - preferably acidic water - and an ability for the dragon to swim away from the party in between breaths.)
From there the dragon just has to wait a few rounds to get his breath weapon 'recharged' and then blast the party until they're dead. He can do this by flying around the room or as mentioned earlier by clinging to the cave walls.
Factoring in the recharge and probability of hitting, I'm guessing the dragon will have about 5 damage per round from his acid per target he can hit. Even with healing surges, each character has roughly six rounds to survive each.
The dragon has 280 hit points and 24 AC (21 reflex). Even the best ranged attacker (the ranger) needs a 14 or better to hit, or will hit 1/3 of the time. His average damage is 1d10+1d8+3, or 12, which is 4. Other characters aren't going to be nearly this good. The wizard needs a 16 or better to hit with magic missile, hitting 1/4 of the time, and doing only 9 points, so about 2 average damage per round. The fighter doesn't have a ranged weapon, but assuming he can get one he'll need at least an 18 or so to hit (hitting about 1/8 of the time), and even if he had 1d10+5 (or 10 average) that's again only 2 points of damage. The warlock, fighter and paladin are also about 2 points per round ranged. So with all six fighting, that's about 14 (let's say 15 to make it easier) average damage per round.
At least until round 6 when one of the party members fall. The dragon should be at around 180 hit points by then, and if he's smart he'll target the ranger first. The party's average drops to 10, giving the dragon another 18 rounds to finish everyone off.
And if you're a simulationist, you should give the dragon a healing surge at some point to give him another 70 hit points.
I think it's extremely unlikely that a party could kill a smart flying dragon. I don't see why a DM would run the dragon on the ground, or why a dragon would choose a lair he can't fly around in.
If you beat the dragon, how did the DM run it? What was the overall result?
Did anyone defeat the black dragon at D&D XP? How did you do it?
With everything said about positioning in 4th edition, I would think there is no way the pregen party could defeat the black dragon.
I'm going to assume the cave he's in is at least 15 feet high. Why? Because dragons aren't stupid, and if he's going to be able to defend himself well he's going to want a lair he can at least fly in. Or better yet, climb up to and cling onto the cave wall and unleash his breath weapon.
(Alternatively, to give the flavor of a black dragon the area should have water - preferably acidic water - and an ability for the dragon to swim away from the party in between breaths.)
From there the dragon just has to wait a few rounds to get his breath weapon 'recharged' and then blast the party until they're dead. He can do this by flying around the room or as mentioned earlier by clinging to the cave walls.
Factoring in the recharge and probability of hitting, I'm guessing the dragon will have about 5 damage per round from his acid per target he can hit. Even with healing surges, each character has roughly six rounds to survive each.
The dragon has 280 hit points and 24 AC (21 reflex). Even the best ranged attacker (the ranger) needs a 14 or better to hit, or will hit 1/3 of the time. His average damage is 1d10+1d8+3, or 12, which is 4. Other characters aren't going to be nearly this good. The wizard needs a 16 or better to hit with magic missile, hitting 1/4 of the time, and doing only 9 points, so about 2 average damage per round. The fighter doesn't have a ranged weapon, but assuming he can get one he'll need at least an 18 or so to hit (hitting about 1/8 of the time), and even if he had 1d10+5 (or 10 average) that's again only 2 points of damage. The warlock, fighter and paladin are also about 2 points per round ranged. So with all six fighting, that's about 14 (let's say 15 to make it easier) average damage per round.
At least until round 6 when one of the party members fall. The dragon...
I'd say the cave would need to be at least 30 feet high actually, consider his wingspan is going to be a beast to deal with and he'd need a small degree of lift... but yes, I agree totally with your insight on the dragon not being stupid and making his lair a low hanging, narrow hole. :)
[snarkycomment]WoW dragons mysteriously hover above the ground within melee reach or just stay planted there. I see no reason for DoD dragons to do anything differently.[/snarkycomment]
Shhhh! Don't let BADD (are those guys even around anymore?) hear you!
Shhhh! Don't let BADD (are those guys even around anymore?) hear you!
I'm a self-proclaimed member. :)
I'm trying my best to avoid the red dragon in FotSG, because it does seem like a DD.
I'm a self-proclaimed members. :)I'm trying my best to avoid the red dragon in FotSG, because it does seem like a DD.
Man, my acronym-fu is weak today. What the hell is a FotSG and does it come in mauve?
And if you're a simulationist
That's your problem right there. If you are a simulationist, you won't be playing 4e. It's explicitly not designed for simulationism. It doesn't really support the concept.
The Dragon can fly around and stuff, but he is still in melee range of the Fighter while doing it. For uh... no reason.
-Frank
Man, my acronym-fu is weak today. What the hell is a FotSG and does it come in mauve?
Pathfinder 4.
That's your problem right there. If you are a simulationist, you won't be playing 4e. It's explicitly not designed for simulationism. It doesn't really support the concept.
I disagree. In the example above, the system 'supports' giving the black dragon healing surges. It's up to the DM to run it that way.
Which specific aspect of 4E does not allow simulationism?
Did anyone defeat the black dragon at D&D XP? How did you do it?
Mike Mearls discusses the dragon in his D&D XP blog. In one of the games he ran, the dragon got slaughtered by the PCs.
And what is BADD? I have heard the term once before but never had it defined.
Bothered About Disaposable (or Dumb) Dragons.
And what is BADD? I have heard the term once before but never had it defined.
As someone who knows the pain of acronyms going over your head, I'll let you in on this one's meaning. Bothered About Disposable Dragons, a group of bastard DMs who make sure dragons are the tough, ornery critters they deserve to be.
Edit: Beaten by half a minute! Curses!
Mike Mearls discusses the dragon in his D&D XP blog. In one of the games he ran, the dragon got slaughtered by the PCs.
Uhm ... linky?
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And if you're a simulationistThat's your problem right there. If you are a simulationist, you won't be playing 4e. It's explicitly not designed for simulationism. It doesn't really support the concept.
The Dragon can fly around and stuff, but he is still in melee range of the Fighter while doing it. For uh... no reason.
-Frank
On the simulation/abstraction continuum D&D has always been close to the abstraction end. 4E may be closer but only by a few ticks.
Mike Mearls discusses the dragon in his D&D XP blog. In one of the games he ran, the dragon got slaughtered by the PCs.
Cool, here it is.
In the dragon's defense, he was put to sleep (not sure why he couldn't fly down to a water area before he fell asleep, thus waking him up) and then was pounded with an incredible lucky streak of 20's from the players and low rolls from the dragon.
[snarkycomment]WoW dragons mysteriously hover above the ground within melee reach or just stay planted there. I see no reason for DoD dragons to do anything differently.[/snarkycomment]
Nah... I guess my group is a bit too much on the quasi-real perspective... dragons have to lift and flap to fly and thus a larger cave would be needed. Granted, keep in mind that we field dress these things, gut them out real good. As such, we tend to look at dragons more as though draconic, being somewhat like a magical beast... aka a beast with some decent magical abilities, but otherwise a beast all the same... they flap, they fly, they claw, bite, breath fire, and most importantly, bleed....
And they go great over the hearth flame at the local tavern on a nice thick pole. I recommend a good basting sauce of fat juices, mushroom gravy, red wine, and various herbs and seasonings.
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Having played through Mike Mearl's Scalegloom Hall, we actually managed to defeat the black dragon and had 3 surviving characters at the end, including the warlock I was playing. Throughout much of the fight, the halfling paladin went on total defense, raising his AC to 22. Since the dragon was marked by the paladin, it pretty much had to attack the paladin or take 8 damage per round. Eventually the paladin went down, as well as the fighter and the wizard. The warlock's eyebiter ability needed to hit the dragon's Will defense instead of his high Reflex or AC so I was able to hit on a fairly regular basis. It took 350 points of damage to finally kill it. About as close a call as I've ever seen for a level 1 encounter. Good stuff.
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Wild rumor I heard is that someone at WotC was peeved at the 'OMG powergamer / characters can never die!' stuff that was coming out and deliberately chose to shove in something at the end that would kill them all, just so that they could point to it later and say, 'See! Characters can die! That dragon killed 'em all!' Most of the GMs played the dragon to its potential and pretty much ate their players characters alive, which, since it was 3 encounter levels past the PCs, was appropriate for the encounter.
It wasn't supposed to be fun or level appropriate or challenging, it was just supposed to hammer home that characters could be killed (by stuff way over their level).
Customers asking annoying questions? PUNISH THEM! 'Prove' them wrong with a ridiculously unbalanced straw man encounter! It's an interesting business policy. Much like Comcast customer 'service' (and by 'service,' I mean 'abuse'), in my experience.
Wild rumor I heard is that someone at WotC was peeved at the 'OMG powergamer / characters can never die!' stuff that was coming out and deliberately chose to shove in something at the end that would kill them all, just so that they could point to it later and say, 'See! Characters can die! That dragon killed 'em all!' Most of the GMs played the dragon to its potential and pretty much ate their players characters alive, which, since it was 3 encounter levels past the PCs, was appropriate for the encounter.
It wasn't supposed to be fun or level appropriate or challenging, it was just supposed to hammer home that characters could be killed (by stuff way over their level).
Customers asking annoying questions? PUNISH THEM! 'Prove' them wrong with a ridiculously unbalanced straw man encounter! It's an interesting business policy. Much like Comcast customer 'service' (and by 'service,' I mean 'abuse'), in my experience.
Indeed... the "peeved" and very unwilling to see anything but a positive push is what I've noticed from WotC on this release... well, part of that is to be expected from any company but I think it is obvious that WotC realizes that at this point the release of 4th edition is a huge gamble for them... and one that is not instantly selling to their masses as well as they initially hoped for.
I think it is fair to say that whether you want 4th edition or hate it you have to admit that this new edition is entering straight into the middle of an flame heavy controversy and it is a bit lofty to believe that everyone will look at the final rules and immediately switch over. The market is basically split as of right now, like it or not, and I think the push to prove 4th edition, at most any expense is a top priority.|
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Having played through Mike Mearl's Scalegloom Hall, we actually managed to defeat the black dragon and had 3 surviving characters at the end, including the warlock I was playing. Throughout much of the fight, the halfling paladin went on total defense, raising his AC to 22. Since the dragon was marked by the paladin, it pretty much had to attack the paladin or take 8 damage per round. Eventually the paladin went down, as well as the fighter and the wizard. The warlock's eyebiter ability needed to hit the dragon's Will defense instead of his high Reflex or AC so I was able to hit on a fairly regular basis. It took 350 points of damage to finally kill it. About as close a call as I've ever seen for a level 1 encounter. Good stuff.
Hmm, this is something I have to digest.
The "Mark" ability practically keeps the Monster (in this case the Dragon) from acting intelligent.The Dragon should have killed of the ranged combatants first and then go for the melee ones.
From a sheer tactics perspective, the dragon would probably be better of, taking the 8hp damage but shredding the other party members who do more than 8hp damage.
As a side question: Why didn't the dragon fly and attack from above?
I have to see the "mark" rules in play and if they scale with level, but from the information I have at the moment, it seems as if is a tactics stopper for monsters.
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It sounds like Jason Bulmahn's group killed the dragon without taking casualties. Thus his conclusion that he's not sure its possible to die in 4e unless the encounters are wildly too powerful.
The second adventure was "Scalegloom Hall", in which I played a halfling paladin. This was a dungeon adventure that also featured five encounters, all of which were fights. The first four were all against Kobolds, while the final combat was against a dragon. The kobolds fights were terribly easy and the dragon fight was incredibly hard. We still won out with no casualties, and played the game to its conclusion.
Wild rumor I heard is that someone at WotC was peeved at the 'OMG powergamer / characters can never die!' stuff that was coming out and deliberately chose to shove in something at the end that would kill them all, just so that they could point to it later and say, 'See! Characters can die! That dragon killed 'em all!' Most of the GMs played the dragon to its potential and pretty much ate their players characters alive, which, since it was 3 encounter levels past the PCs, was appropriate for the encounter.
It wasn't supposed to be fun or level appropriate or challenging, it was just supposed to hammer home that characters could be killed (by stuff way over their level).
Customers asking annoying questions? PUNISH THEM! 'Prove' them wrong with a ridiculously unbalanced straw man encounter! It's an interesting business policy. Much like Comcast customer 'service' (and by 'service,' I mean 'abuse'), in my experience.
When I first heard that the pregens had to fight a dragon, the first question that came to my mind was why? It seemed to me that very few parties would be able to defeat the encounter and those that did would have to be extremely lucky.
Its also funny how most of the pregens didn't die until this final encounter.
Mike Mearls discusses the dragon in his D&D XP blog. In one of the games he ran, the dragon got slaughtered by the PCs.Cool, here it is.
In the dragon's defense, he was put to sleep (not sure why he couldn't fly down to a water area before he fell asleep, thus waking him up) and then was pounded with an incredible lucky streak of 20's from the players and low rolls from the dragon.
So I take it that the dragon aren't immune to sleep anymore...
From SRD :
Immunities (Ex)
All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. Each variety of dragon has immunity to one or two additional forms of attack no matter what its age, as given in its description.
I didn't read everything on 4th edition yet. Not really interested in changing so I don't follow on everything. And even if I was to change, it wouldn't be for a long while.
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So I take it that the dragon aren't immune to sleep anymore...
I think that part of the 4e design philosophy is - monsters who are immune to certain things are not 'fun.' Every party should have all the tools they need to deal with every situation, regardles of the party or the situation.
Others can feel free to correct me if I have misunderstood this.
So I take it that the dragon aren't immune to sleep anymore...
I think that part of the 4e design philosophy is - monsters who are immune to certain things are not 'fun.' Every party should have all the tools they need to deal with every situation, regardles of the party or the situation.
Others can feel free to correct me if I have misunderstood this.
Immunities and resistances have definitely been toned down in 4e, but they still exist.
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It sounds like Jason Bulmahn's group killed the dragon without taking casualties. Thus his conclusion that he's not sure its possible to die in 4e unless the encounters are wildly too powerful.
OK, I've been a little hesitant to bring this up because I've only heard it from one source, so all please take this with a grain of salt. (I only played the first preview and not "Scalegloom Hall" so I don't know first hand.)
One of my friends who DID play Scalegloom said going into the last encounter, the DM asked them if they wanted the "regular" dragon or the "challenge" dragon. This leads me to think there were TWO versions of the stats included: one level appropriate and the one several levels higher. They - of course - picked the "challenge" dragon and got their butts handed to them. :)Jason's group may have just had the "regular" dragon and thus defeated it with no casualties.
I'm just wondering if this could have something to do with the differences we're hearing about this particular encounter. It wouldn't surprise me if some DMs just used the "challenge" dragon to have fun without asking their tables or maybe by mistake.
Just something to think about.
(I'm still looking for someone who actually judged the adventure to confirm one way or the other...)
-J
It sounds like Jason Bulmahn's group killed the dragon without taking casualties. Thus his conclusion that he's not sure its possible to die in 4e unless the encounters are wildly too powerful.OK, I've been a little hesitant to bring this up because I've only heard it from one source, so all please take this with a grain of salt. (I only played the first preview and not "Scalegloom Hall" so I don't know first hand.)
One of my friends who DID play Scalegloom said going into the last encounter, the DM asked them if they wanted the "regular" dragon or the "challenge" dragon. This leads me to think there were TWO versions of the stats included: one level appropriate and the one several levels higher. They - of course - picked the "challenge" dragon and got their butts handed to them. :)
I played in Scalegloom Hall, and our DM also asked us if we wanted the "level appropriate" dragon or the "ass-kicking" dragon (his words as well as I can remember). I was actually at the table with a large part of my normal gaming group, and we led the charge for the latter. We recovered the Green Dragon hide, the Black Dragon's loot, and slew the dragon. Three PC's survived. The paladin's Mark ability ended up doing TONS of damage as the Dragon ignored him and the fighter in favor of the ranger and warlock, who were dishing out the damage.
Wild rumor I heard is that someone at WotC was peeved at the 'OMG powergamer / characters can never die!' stuff that was coming out and deliberately chose to shove in something at the end that would kill them all, just so that they could point to it later and say, 'See! Characters can die! That dragon killed 'em all!' Most of the GMs played the dragon to its potential and pretty much ate their players characters alive, which, since it was 3 encounter levels past the PCs, was appropriate for the encounter.
It wasn't supposed to be fun or level appropriate or challenging, it was just supposed to hammer home that characters could be killed (by stuff way over their level).
Customers asking annoying questions? PUNISH THEM! 'Prove' them wrong with a ridiculously unbalanced straw man encounter! It's an interesting business policy. Much like Comcast customer 'service' (and by 'service,' I mean 'abuse'), in my experience.
If that was their intention, it was lost on me =) I went in with the impression that 4E PC's were nigh-invulnerable and my experience in the adventures only confirmed it.
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Hmm, this is something I have to digest.
The "Mark" ability practically keeps the Monster (in this case the Dragon) from acting intelligent.
The Dragon should have killed of the ranged combatants first and then go for the melee ones.
From a sheer tactics perspective, the dragon would probably be better of, taking the 8hp damage but shredding the other party members who do more than 8hp damage.As a side question: Why didn't the dragon fly and attack from above?
I have to see the "mark" rules in play and if they scale with level, but from the information I have at the moment, it seems as if is a tactics stopper for monsters.
I think the cavern ceiling was too low for the dragon do fly out of melee reach. It used its breath weapon quite a few times, but after the first one we spread out so that no more than 2 characters would be affected at the same time. It also used its darkness ability to give everyone of us a -5 penalty to attacks, which pretty much made it next to impossible to hit. Eventually the fighter and paladin backed out of the darkness, and the dragon followed.
As for the mark, it wasn't that overpowering against the dragon since it had so many hit points. But I admit I find it strange the opponents don't even get a save to resist the effect.
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As a side question: Why didn't the dragon fly and attack from above?
I think the cavern ceiling was too low for the dragon do fly out of melee reach.
Ok, then the cavern was suboptimal for Dragon tactics. Might be to give the PCs a chance to beat him at all.
As for the mark, it wasn't that overpowering against the dragon since it had so many hit points. But I admit I find it strange the opponents don't even get a save to resist the effect.
Thing is, as DM I can make my monsters ignore the mark and use the best tactics available to them.
Sure, the Monsters looses HPs or gets a negative Modifier but that might still be better than to attack the "marker" and leave the other PCs.BUT if I do this, the "Markers" Player will ask me what this ability is good for, if the monsters ignore it.