In case anyone's interested, the responses of WotC designers to questions about 4E from Slashdot readers have been posted. I would imagine that most regulars here already know a lot of this, but I'm posting the link on the off chance that someone might be curious.
In other Slashdot news, the government is beaming messages into our heads. Bzzzt.
The Eberron campaign setting isn't coming out until 2009? Glads I don't DM that.
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This I really like:
WotC:
The only book any player needs to play the game is the Player's Handbook. In addition, the DM will want a copy of the Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual (to help him craft encounters, build adventures, and run an entertaining game). Players won't need the Dungeon Master's Guide to equip their higher-level characters, because the PH will have plenty of magic items for all levels. Players won't need the Monster Manual to adjudicate shapechanging or summoning effects, because those effects will be self-contained within the classes or powers that grant them.
I love the notion that the PHB is all you need to be a player. When I played a druid in Living Kalamar I had to schlep my PHB, DMG, and MM with me.
So to just play 4E it will cost you just $30 rather than $100.
Yes, I know there will be splat books but those are not essential to just play the game.
So to just play 4E it will cost you just $30 rather than $100.
Unless your the DM/Players' Punching Bag. Then the ecstasy of playing forty orcs that get diced up in three rounds week after week can be yours for only $$$ (amount subject to increase monthly).
We're definitely reducing the number of magic items that a typical character will carry around.
Didn't they already prove this statement wrong back when someone listed what their 10th level character had?
Or are they referring not having as many potions/scrolls since the power sources are unlimited?
because the lack of tactical and strategic options for fighters, rogues, and many other characters had become a glaring weakness in the game.
Now they lost me... Fighters and Rogues lacked tactical and strategic options? I am thinking they meant that they lacked options that stole the spotlight.
because the lack of tactical and strategic options for fighters, rogues, and many other characters had become a glaring weakness in the game.Now they lost me... Fighters and Rogues lacked tactical and strategic options? I am thinking they meant that they lacked options that stole the spotlight.
Even that is a bit off the mark.
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Unless your the DM/Players' Punching Bag. Then the ecstasy of playing forty orcs that get diced up in three rounds week after week can be yours for only $$$ (amount subject to increase monthly).
So to just play 4E it will cost you just $30 rather than $100.
I'm sorry but I am not sure what you are eluding to.
So to just play 4E it will cost you just $30 rather than $100.
Plus the monthly fee to get the races they kept from you.
Plus the 30 for the MM if you want to play a race they kept out of the PHB.
Plus another 30 for the next PHB if the class you want to play wasn't in the first one.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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This I really like:
WotC:
The only book any player needs to play the game is the Player's Handbook. In addition, the DM will want a copy of the Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual (to help him craft encounters, build adventures, and run an entertaining game). Players won't need the Dungeon Master's Guide to equip their higher-level characters, because the PH will have plenty of magic items for all levels. Players won't need the Monster Manual to adjudicate shapechanging or summoning effects, because those effects will be self-contained within the classes or powers that grant them.I love the notion that the PHB is all you need to be a player. When I played a druid in Living Kalamar I had to schlep my PHB, DMG, and MM with me.
Technically, this was true for 3E and 3.5, too. If your DM had a DMG/MM, the player didn't need it.
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This I really like:
WotC:
The only book any player needs to play the game is the Player's Handbook. In addition, the DM will want a copy of the Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual (to help him craft encounters, build adventures, and run an entertaining game). Players won't need the Dungeon Master's Guide to equip their higher-level characters, because the PH will have plenty of magic items for all levels. Players won't need the Monster Manual to adjudicate shapechanging or summoning effects, because those effects will be self-contained within the classes or powers that grant them.I love the notion that the PHB is all you need to be a player. When I played a druid in Living Kalamar I had to schlep my PHB, DMG, and MM with me.
So to just play 4E it will cost you just $30 rather than $100.
Yes, I know there will be splat books but those are not essential to just play the game.
This is different from 3ed how? this is exactly the same for EVERY prior edition. Players need their handbook and the Dm needs everything else. Except I would be willing to guarantee that you actually will need more than just the PHB to have all the options a player wants at his finger tips (magic items? gnomes? 1/2 orcs?).
I'm not saying that this is a negative about 4ed, but lets not get all googoo gaga over some marketing doublespeak. iN the words of that little old lady from the 80's Wendys commercials "WHERE'S THE BEEF?"
I love that bit. :)
The idea is contained in the quote. Read it again. Magic items and summoned critter stats will be included in the PHB, so no cross-referencing of the DMG is needed.
Its true that for the most part, a PHB is all a player needs in 3E. But surely I'm not the only one who has had to wait for the one copy of the DMG to make its way around the table so I could figure out what some strange item does? Hell, if you play a summoning focused caster, not having your own MM is crippling (especially if your table requires your summons to be pre-statted out ahead of time, like at mine.)
I'm sorry but I am not sure what you are eluding to.
<grammar nazi>
alluding... ;-)</grammar nazi>
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To play 3E you need the DMG - prestige classes and magic items are in there. Druids and rangers need the MM for all of the animal companion stats. Wizards and sorcerers need the MM for all the shape change stuff. Anyone that can summon needs the MM for the stats.
So yes, all you need to play 3.5 is the PHB unless you want to craft or use magic items, have an animal companion or familiar, summon critters, change yourself or others into critters, or play one of the prestige classes found in the DMG.
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So to just play 4E it will cost you just $30 rather than $100.
Plus the monthly fee to get the races they kept from you.
Plus the 30 for the MM if you want to play a race they kept out of the PHB.
Plus another 30 for the next PHB if the class you want to play wasn't in the first one.
Of course there will always be extensions but the current scheme makes all three core book essential for players.
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To play 3E you need the DMG - prestige classes and magic items are in there. Druids and rangers need the MM for all of the animal companion stats. Wizards and sorcerers need the MM for all the shape change stuff. Anyone that can summon needs the MM for the stats.
So yes, all you need to play 3.5 is the PHB unless you want to craft or use magic items, have an animal companion or familiar, summon critters, change yourself or others into critters, or play one of the prestige classes found in the DMG.
Or you could just use the SRD between sessions.
Wasn't the reason that the DMG had the magic items to prevent to allow the DM contol over the treasure allocation? In other words to allow them a handy list to generate treasure from and to prevent players from being able to constently fiddle with their wish list. Of course most players then just got a DMG but...
Plus I dislike animal companions, familiars and shape changing into multiple shapes. (Extra time, turns and not really that useful for the characters. I mean how many wizards actually use their familiars to deliver touch attack spells?)
I also dislike summoned creatures that aren't in the MM but the base monster and the template are. Blah.
For a Downloadable 3.5 stat list of all summonable monsters go here.
The thing that they don't mention in the slashdot.org post is WHICH PHBs you'll need - do you "only need the first one" or do you "only need the one covering your current class" or do you need "every PHB that comes out"?
I think they are making the true statement (though it could be considered through rose tinted glasses) about the initial release.
It could become quite untrue later but could be completely true for the initial release.
I'm sorry but I am not sure what you are eluding to.<grammar nazi>
alluding... ;-)
</grammar nazi>Ooops - yes. That is what I meant. Alluding. Doh.
Next time - please don't use Nazi in that context. It bugs people.
I'll keep that in mind...sorry if I offended.
how about <grammar snob>? :)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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In the vein of nit-picking, I'd also note that having a subset of monsters in the PHB and not in the MM results in the DM having to cross reference more books. That's probably not a big deal given that you already need to cross reference the 3 books anyway (e.g., making a githzerai fighter 3/wizard 5 will require the MM for the base creature, the DMG for his magic items, and the PHB for his spells, equipment, and feats), but hey, it's called nitpicking for a reason.
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Wasn't the reason that the DMG had the magic items to prevent to allow the DM contol over the treasure allocation? In other words to allow them a handy list to generate treasure from and to prevent players from being able to constently fiddle with their wish list. Of course most players then just got a DMG but...
Yeah - I think that was the justification but as a DM its up to the player to know how his or her magic item works. I don't want to look it up for the players. Then there is the whole craft thing. If players can make them they will need access to them.
Plus I dislike animal companions, familiars and shape changing into multiple shapes. (Extra time, turns and not really that useful for the characters. I mean how many wizards actually use their familiars to deliver touch attack spells?)
It can be a pain but then again the 3.5 druid is all about shape change and summon.
I also dislike summoned creatures that aren't in the MM but the base monster and the template are. Blah.
Yep - that is a pain.
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Payers only "need" the PHB - in any given edition.
However, most players want every option under the sun, and it's a great aid to the DM for them to have the stats of commonly summoned/animated/shape-shifted to creatures at hand, as well as copies of any variant rules they're making use of.
So are you saying that it is up to the GM to adjust a player's sheet when they use polymorph? Is it up to the GM to have the stats for summoned creatures?
A player with a druid PC needs more than the PHB for that classes core abilities. I am not talking about options - the very core of what they do requires the other books.
Just try running a druid with the PHB and nothing else (no not even photocopies or printouts from the SRD). I bet you find that you need more than just the PHB.
Or, try to use polymorph without the MM.
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In the vein of nit-picking, I'd also note that having a subset of monsters in the PHB and not in the MM results in the DM having to cross reference more books. That's probably not a big deal given that you already need to cross reference the 3 books anyway (e.g., making a githzerai fighter 3/wizard 5 will require the MM for the base creature, the DMG for his magic items, and the PHB for his spells, equipment, and feats), but hey, it's called nitpicking for a reason.
Yep. That is why they designed monsters to be self contained as well. Sure, critters can be extended but you can run them straight from their entry in the MM under 4E. As a DM that is a very promising development.
[threadjack]
Wait . . I think I just realized something. Gnomes are monsters now right? So if I have a character that is able to summon monsters . . . I can summon a viscious attack gnome? Schweet.
[/threadjack]
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To play 3E you need the DMG - prestige classes and magic items are in there. Druids and rangers need the MM for all of the animal companion stats. Wizards and sorcerers need the MM for all the shape change stuff. Anyone that can summon needs the MM for the stats.
So yes, all you need to play 3.5 is the PHB unless you want to craft or use magic items, have an animal companion or familiar, summon critters, change yourself or others into critters, or play one of the prestige classes found in the DMG.
I have run AOW without a single prestige class so my players did not need the DMG and if I gave them a magic item i handed them the stats or my copy of the book to look at. Same thing with the MM - part of my DM prep was notes on each room's monster's HP, AC, and attack mods (and spells if applicable) so that I could hand the druid/ranger/ect the MM when he summoned something mid fight and it didn't slow down the game. I have played full games with the only book at the table was one PHB.I as the DM did have notes on what the important stats were as mentioned above though
While I doubt they'll fully pull it off it strikes me as a good idea to try and rationalize the books so that the DMG contains stuff the DM needs and the PHB contains stuff the player needs. That was a bit of a weak point in 3.X as the books where pretty much straight ports from 2nd edition (which really was almost a straight port from 1st edition). If it was in the 2nd edition DMG then the new rules for how you did X probably appeared in the 3rd edition DMG. However the game had changed so much from 1st and 2nd edition that a lot of the time this no longer made sense. Its probably for the best that they make an attempt to look at each section of the rules and ask themselves 'Which book would this be best in?' instead of continuing to put Magic Items in the DMG simply becuase thats how it has always been done.
So will it be absolutely perfect? I doubt it but if its closer to accurate thats a step in the right direction.
I have run AOW without a single prestige class so my players did not need the DMG and if I gave them a magic item i handed them the stats or my copy of the book to look at. Same thing with the MM - part of my DM prep was notes on each room's monster's HP, AC, and attack mods (and spells if applicable) so that I could hand the druid/ranger/ect the MM when he summoned something mid fight and it didn't slow down the game. I have played full games with the only book at the table was one PHB.I as the DM did have notes on what the important stats were as mentioned above though
By your own admission though, the player needed more than the PHB! Even if he was borrowing yours instead of buying his own, he did need the info contained within. And the problem that comes from this (at least at my table) is when a few people summon an critter or want to see what this or that item does, a queue of people waiting on our one copy of the DMG or MM builds up and the books start getting passed back and forth around the table. The idea is to put all the info a player might need in the PHB, and thus prevent it.
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[QUOTE="crosswiredmind"
So to just play 4E it will cost you just $30 rather than $100.
Yes, I know there will be splat books but those are not essential to just play the game.
That is the lamest 4e "benefit" I have ever heard. There is absolutely NO WAY a single person playing 4e will only spend 30 dollars. You won't do it, I won't do it, no one will do it. Besides, it won't be fun to play with solely one book, at least in my experience. I plan on buying all the 4e books anyway, because it is more fun that way.
That is the lamest 4e "benefit" I have ever heard. There is absolutely NO WAY a single person playing 4e will only spend 30 dollars. You won't do it, I won't do it, no one will do it. Besides, it won't be fun to play with solely one book, at least in my experience. I plan on buying all the 4e books anyway, because it is more fun that way.
I'd agree with you in general, except I know people who've only bought the PHB (hell, I know people who haven't bought anything!) and still play, thanks mostly to the lovely SRD. I defintiely don't choose to play that way, and neither do you (I'd surmise) but they seem to get by fine and still have fun.
I can't speak for them, of course, but I suspect that for some of them, the idea that you only have to get the PHB probably is a pretty cool feature, at least with the SRD going away. It is the thing I'm most excited about re:4E though? Nah, not at all! :P
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That is the lamest 4e "benefit" I have ever heard. There is absolutely NO WAY a single person playing 4e will only spend 30 dollars. You won't do it, I won't do it, no one will do it. Besides, it won't be fun to play with solely one book, at least in my experience. I plan on buying all the 4e books anyway, because it is more fun that way.
Apparently there can be nothing positive about 4E even when there is.
Players only "need" the PHB - in any given edition.
As long as we are basing discussion on semantics, lets dice that hair all the way.
First, an argument could be made that players don't need any book. All they need is a group that will dole out information to them when it is needed. Of course, if we successfully make that argument, then WotC will sell less books...
Next, if you will notice the quote carefully, is never claims that there won't be any magic items (the quote is "there are plenty of magic items" - not all); prestige classes, um I mean Paragon Paths (no mention at all); or any possible summoning/shapechanging options in the DMG or MM, let alone any later books.
In fact, they quickly added in that the rules database would be available when you would require more books.
Let's not start deluding ourselves that one book is really all that is needed.
Side Note:: Does it worry anyone else that summoning/shapechanging is being passed off as "in the PHB?" I get the feeling that a power that resembles the 3.5 spell Shapechange won't exist anymore. There will be Shapechange - Ogre, Shapechange - Horse, Shapechange - Gnome, etc. Same thing with summonings, I would think...
I'm fairly confident that I will be able to technically play 4th Edition with just the three core books. It might not have all the options I want (such as psionics), but the game is still completely playable.
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was under the impression that all the summoning/ shape changing spells and abilities as well as animal companions and familiars were being dropped. So why would they be in the Players handbook?
I think the point is that every class will have all of the information needed to play it on one place regardless of what is or is not a part of that class.
That can only be a good thing.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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was under the impression that all the summoning/ shape changing spells and abilities as well as animal companions and familiars were being dropped. So why would they be in the Players handbook?I think the point is that every class will have all of the information needed to play it on one place regardless of what is or is not a part of that class.
That can only be a good thing.
...unless you achieve this by eliminating character options (such as summoning/shapechanging/familiars/animal companions/race options, etc.) that players are used to having. Then it is a "not so good" thing.
If this was a brand new game, then I would view this more postitively. But eliminating existing options from the prior edition just so all of the character/class information fits in one book doesn't make me feel "good" about anything.
Apparently there can be nothing positive about 4E even when there is.That is the lamest 4e "benefit" I have ever heard. There is absolutely NO WAY a single person playing 4e will only spend 30 dollars. You won't do it, I won't do it, no one will do it. Besides, it won't be fun to play with solely one book, at least in my experience. I plan on buying all the 4e books anyway, because it is more fun that way.
The phrase "It's better than getting kicked in the face with a golf shoe." comes to mind. Yes, it is indeed a benefit that, if you just want to play, all you need is the PHB. But, kinda like 3.5, if you want to run a game AND play, you'll still need everything.
[not_impressed_3.5_player] I can think of a benefit of 4E; I won't need to spend any money on it to play my 3.5 game. [/not_impressed_3.5_player]
If this was a brand new game, then I would view this more postitively. But eliminating existing options from the prior edition just so all of the character/class information fits in one book doesn't make me feel "good" about anything.
I've been able to feel a whole lot better about 4e when I came to the realization that it is a completely new game. It may have the name of D&D slapped on to it, but it is so different from anything I've previously known as D&D, I've come to the decision that once I do pass my final judgement on it (which will only be after I view the three core books), I'll be judging it solely on it's own merits, and not on what I think it should be, based on the name it carries.
It's the only way I can let my inner grognard sleep at night.
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...unless you achieve this by eliminating character options (such as summoning/shapechanging/familiars/animal companions/race options, etc.) that players are used to having. Then it is a "not so good" thing.
If this was a brand new game, then I would view this more postitively. But eliminating existing options from the prior edition just so all of the character/class information fits in one book doesn't make me feel "good" about anything.
True - the test will be in seeing how it is executed. Its a sound philosophy but could get nerfed in translation.
The initial 4th Edition plans for allowing third-party publication of compatible supplements have been announced, and we're currently working with a number of independent publishers to iron out the details and get them started. Our goal is to allow 3rd party publishers, both large and small, the opportunity to publish products compatible with Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition.
Really? I wonder who those independent publishers they are currently working with are?
The only book any player needs to play the game is the Player's Handbook...
Unless you want to play a gnome, ½-orc, druid, bard, monk or a summoning, enchantment or necromancy focused spellcaster, of course.
Players won't need the Monster Manual to adjudicate shapechanging or summoning effects, because those effects will be self-contained within the classes or powers that grant them.
But they won't be in the PHB.
Our character builder application let's you build characters of any 4E class and level. It will also let you populate the sheets with content from the D&D database, and to update your characters as they grow.
So, as we already knew, the character builder will be able to do fully automated character sheets... as long as you buy your monthly subscription to DDI - not a stand-alone program (like. e.g. PCGen).
I wonder if one could just subscribe one month, say... every 6 months and then gain access to all the stuff that's been released over the past 6 months. Download those things and then end your subscription for the next 5 months.
The "beneath the surface" answer is, "Because this edition is the most exciting and playable version of D&D that has ever been published." In order for Dungeons & Dragons to continue to thrive, it needs to retain current players while also attracting new players to the fold. Third Edition D&D succeeded wildly on both counts, and also brought thousands of lapsed D&D players back into the game (in some cases after years away from the tabletop). We have every expectation that Fourth Edition will repeat that success.
I'm again amazed at how they determine what's exciting and playable [and fun!]for every single D&D player in the world. Of course, it's all marketing speak and not really a "beneath the surface" answer.
And what if it doesn't repeat that success???
D&D has always been a tabletop-based game, and Fourth Edition won't change that. However, we recognize that people think about games, information storage, and even social gatherings differently now than they did in 1974, and we want the new D&D to recognize and embrace those differences rather than risk becoming obsolete.
Hmmm, I distinctly remember a time period between 1974 and today... did I miss something or did we just skip 3 decades?
So 3.5 is the same as playing with the rules anno 1974? In other words, obsolete?