Greetings All,
(This will be much briefer than my original post which got eaten by the boards, with neither pity nor mercy....sigh ;P )
As in my Savage Tide AP before this, I am running Rise of the Runelords as a Gestalt campaign. While most of the major NPCs throughout the AP will be fairly easy and straightforward to modify, I think I need some help with Karzoug.
James Jacobs said in the Foreword to PF#6 that he really wanted to keep Karzoug "just a human", and I want to stay true to that intention if I can. While I don't think that slapping bunches of templates on The Claimer would feel 'right', I don't think that just randomly slapping on fighter or rogue levels would either.
Since I received so much good help and counsel on my revision of Rowyn Kellani in Savage Tide, I once again come before you to ask for your assistance. How would you revise Karzoug to be a Gestalted BBEG for the end of Rise of the Runelords? Here are my initial thoughts:
I can't think of any templates offhand that would work with Karzoug's image of being a simple human who, through drive and ambition, turned himself into what he is now, just like the PCs who will face off with him in Xin-Shalast. I think a combination of classes, prestige classes and racial paragon class would be best, but I could be wrong, which is why I am willing to look at any idea, from any source out there.
Sticking to the classes I mentioned, I would probably give one side a full 20 level Transmuter progression, and have a full 5 levels of Archmage and 3 levels of Paragon Human on the other to start. This is not set in stone for me, but seems to make sense for the character of Karzoug as of right now.
I know there are a few others who are running RotRL as gestalt, so hopefully this will help them as well. I plan on posting what I can of my final revision of Karzoug here (without violating copyright of course) for any to use or modify as they need.
As always, I would love to hear the thoughts of the Paizo staff and the AP authors, if they have a few moments to look at this. Thanks in advance to all for your help in this. Let the brainstorming begin! :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
One one side, I'd keep Transmuter/Archmage. Having Transmuter on one side and Archmage on the other doesn't really make sense.
Cleric of Greed could work. No need to use Norgorber even. He's a follower, incarnation even, of greed. Favoured Soul could work, too.
Domains: Evil could work, Knowledge, Magic. Artifice, Rune or Creation would also make good ones (you can find them on d20srd.org under divine rules)
You only get to use one PrC per level, so you can't have PrCs on both sides.
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I'm not playing gestalt, but I'm adding levels of Fatespinner (from Complete Arcane) and Master Specialist (from Complete Mage) to Karzoug. Both of those feel highly appropriate to him, and certainly round out his abilities.
Levels in sorcerer on one side could work, to represent his ultimate mastery over magic. He could also use his sorcerer spells for enchantment and illusion, to make him more rounded. And when the PCs finally encounter him, he could spend round after round hammering them with 9th level spells without tiring. :)
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32
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I'm not playing gestalt, but I'm adding levels of Fatespinner (from Complete Arcane) and Master Specialist (from Complete Mage) to Karzoug. Both of those feel highly appropriate to him, and certainly round out his abilities.
Levels in sorcerer on one side could work, to represent his ultimate mastery over magic. He could also use his sorcerer spells for enchantment and illusion, to make him more rounded. And when the PCs finally encounter him, he could spend round after round hammering them with 9th level spells without tiring. :)
When you finish his stat block, i would love to see it. :) Please post it.
I thought about your question last night. Here’s my answer:
On one side- Transmuter16/Archmage4 on one side (possibly changing it to Transmuter6/Master Specialist10/Archmage4).
On the other- Rogue5/Ur-Priest5/Geomancer10.
Oh, and take feat Arcane Strike as well.
You might need to change the ur-priest fluff a little. The above combo would give him spells as a 10th-level Ur-Priest, at CL 25, as well as his not insignificant transmuter abilities...
Hi Folks,
I've (sad to say) not yet made the time to really go through all the prestige classes in Complete Mage, so the Master Specialist is something I will have to look at.
The Ur-Priest is not an angle I had considered, but with some tweaking, it could be interesting (if the levels can be staggered to avoid dual PrCs at the same level of course). Favored Soul might be the quicker fix though (spot-on domain suggestions KaeYoss). Hmmm.....
My only problem with the Geomancer is that I don't think the Drift would fit well thematically - if I use the class, I would trade it out for something else.
A thought just came to me - there's also the option of giving him levels of Cerbrex from Dragon Compendium - the abilities of that PrC would work very well I think (I need to check the prereqs again to make sure he could qualify as a transmuter first).
And Arcane Strike is indeed on my list - I do so love that feat ;)
Good stuff so far - keep it coming!
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
I really like the human paragon idea, because in the end it will raise his INT even more, and that's always cool. I would go with something like Master of the Unseen Hand or Blood Magus myself, but I'm also crazy so... actually, the crazy route would be Spellthief. Because the idea of Karzoug flying above you, absorbing your spells, and then either throwing them back at you or burning off the levels into arcane fire just makes me a little giddy.
I want to second the Cleric of Greed idea, except I'd go right to the Dragon #323 Sin Domain of Avarice:
Granted Power: Once per day, as a standard action, you may determine the most valuable item within 30 feet. An item's value is determined by its listed gold-piece value. If you cannot see the most valuable item within range, you become aware of its general location (within 5 feet), but you gain no insight into what the item is. This ability does not tell you the gold piece value of an item.
Domain Spells:
1 - Sticky Fingers (+10 to sleight of hand checks)
2 - Treasure Scent - Allows you to detect and follow valuable materials by scent.
3 - Locate Object
4 - Shrink Item
5 - Telekinesis
6 - Leomund's Secret Chest
7 - Sequester
8 - Discern Location
9 - Antipathy
Then stack on some other useful and appropriate domain as mentioned above.
There's a feat from the Dragon Compendium (I forget the name) for transmuters that either adds +2 to stat bonuses from spells or multiplies them by 150%. I think it's simply an additonal +2, but I could be wrong.
[slight_threadjack] I have a beguiler/mindbender with the Mindsight feat from Lords of Madness. If you have telepathy (thank you mindbender...), the feat lets you detect sentient minds out a range of your telepathy and tells you their Int score. I can't wait to see my PCs' faces when I tell the beguiler "You clearly recognize the fox's cunning he's casting. Ok, his intelligence just jumped by six..." [/slight_threadjack]
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He could also use his sorcerer spells for enchantment and illusion, to make him more rounded.Doesn't that defeat the purpose behind the whole concept of the magical properties or whatnot of Greed, though?
I guess it depends on how you visualize Karzoug. Xin-Shalast itself definitely had access to illusion and enchantment, so I don't think it undermines the concept of greed magic too much. It would also help explain some niggling things, like how Karzoug can communicate through projected images that he could never legitimately create. (In my own game I'm going to stress that it's not an illusion--he actually *is* very partially in the material plane. But it'd be simpler to say he produced the image through illusion.)
I also like to think that Karzoug would be so greedy that he covets the magic of others, too, and hence goes out of his way to access everything. That might be a good explanation for his sorcery; it's not from draconic ancestry or anything like that, but simply because he's found a way to steal magic from others and imbue it within himself. (I'm giving him the spell Reaving Dispel from Complete Arcane to represent this in a tangible way.) Spellthief would work for that too; good thinking, deel.
Another idea that occurs to me would be to give him levels in Wu Jen. He could use his Sihedron Tome to hold his spells from both classes, take Elemental Mastery (fire) or maybe (metal), and use his spell secrets on spells that are on both lists. Plus he could use a number of fun spells that your players might not be very familiar with. And thus become even scarier.
Similarly, you could add warmage. His DCs wouldn't be so great on that side unless you twinked his charisma, but it'd be a good source of quickened spells, and he'd get a very hefty bonus from warmage edge.
If no one is using psionics but you have no particular dislike for them, try adding psion, roleplaying it as another form of ancient magic that Karzoug might have developed from studying Leng. When the players realize he's playing by rules they don't understand, he's sure to terrify them. (Of course if they do recognize and understand the psionics, this won't be so effective.)
But if you really want to make him scary, just cram levels in Ultimate Magus in there. That would be cheating according to the gestalt rules, but hey, if anybody deserves to cheat, it's Karzoug. :)
I'd go right to the Dragon #323 Sin Domain of Avarice:
Don't forget to give it to Ceoptra!
When you finish his stat block, i would love to see it. :) Please post it.
Will do!
Another idea that occurs to me would be to give him levels in Wu Jen. He could use his Sihedron Tome to hold his spells from both classes, take Elemental Mastery (fire) or maybe (metal), and use his spell secrets on spells that are on both lists. Plus he could use a number of fun spells that your players might not be very familiar with. And thus become even scarier.
Similarly, you could add warmage. His DCs wouldn't be so great on that side unless you twinked his charisma, but it'd be a good source of quickened spells, and he'd get a very hefty bonus from warmage edge.
If no one is using psionics but you have no particular dislike for them, try adding psion, roleplaying it as another form of ancient magic that Karzoug might have developed from studying Leng. When the players realize he's playing by rules they don't understand, he's sure to terrify them. (Of course if they do recognize and understand the psionics, this won't be so effective.)
But if you really want to make him scary, just cram levels in Ultimate Magus in there. That would be cheating according to the gestalt rules, but hey, if anybody deserves to cheat, it's Karzoug. :)
I do like the flavor of adding WuJen levels. They do have some great spells that would make things interesting for the PCs.
I've been considering psion levels, especially with Karzoug's proximity to Leng and all the fun possibilities therein. Having to manage the two systems at once in the final battle would be challenging though.
I'll need to take a closer look at Warmage and Ultimate Magus when I'm back at my books.
Good stuff again!
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
If you give him 2 spell caster Classes, i would make sure his spell selection has lots of Quickened spells this would make him much more deadly as a boss fight.
If you have the book of experimental might, you could add runeblade. Gives him some skill points, some hit points, and some "runic traps".
Hi Lordmolay, KaeYoss,
I think any version of Karzoug would benefit from having a bunch of quickened spells handy, though it will be much easier with the Gestalt option. I think it will be a requirement in order to keep up with my PCs and last more than a few rounds.
I was going to get the Book of Experimental Might anyway because of the Runeblade - I was hoping to maybe add that class to some of Karzoug's key followers if the flavor is a good fit. Hopefully I will get to download that tonight to peruse.
Thanks!
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
