Hi. I'm preparing to run the Manor House, and it looks like fun, but I just started thinking harder and looking more closely at Iesha's and Aldern's stats, and I'm getting a little bit concerned.
For one thing, Iesha's got an impressive suite of defensive capabilities: fast healing, damage reduction, spell resistance, undead traits, cold immunity, and a very decent hit point total. She's kind of ridiculous on offense too - her attack and grapple bonuses are very high. With my PCs, at least, it stands a pretty decent chance that she could end up dishing out 4d6+40 damage in a single round with all the constricting. My players will be coming up against her in an enclosed space, with no turning ability (the divine caster they've got is a favored soul). I'm afraid she's going to shred them.
Of course, she might not even end up fighting them - if they stay out of her way, she'll go for Aldern. This is almost worse, however. Comparing Iesha's stats with Aldern's, it looks like Iesha will absolutely wreck him. If the PCs stand back far enough, it seems inevitable that they'll watch her tear through every ghoul in her path, and then proceed to take out the main villain of the adventure. As soon as she does that, her quest is at an end and she'll drop dead too. The PCs' reward for cleverly dealing with Iesha is that she'll finish the adventure for them? Lame.
Has anyone had this happen in their adventure? Is there a good way to fix it, or prevent it? Thanks!
Hi. I'm preparing to run the Manor House, and it looks like fun, but I just started thinking harder and looking more closely at Iesha's and Aldern's stats, and I'm getting a little bit concerned.
For one thing, Iesha's got an impressive suite of defensive capabilities: fast healing, damage reduction, spell resistance, undead traits, cold immunity, and a very decent hit point total. She's kind of ridiculous on offense too - her attack and grapple bonuses are very high. With my PCs, at least, it stands a pretty decent chance that she could end up dishing out 4d6+40 damage in a single round with all the constricting. My players will be coming up against her in an enclosed space, with no turning ability (the divine caster they've got is a favored soul). I'm afraid she's going to shred them.
Of course, she might not even end up fighting them - if they stay out of her way, she'll go for Aldern. This is almost worse, however. Comparing Iesha's stats with Aldern's, it looks like Iesha will absolutely wreck him. If the PCs stand back far enough, it seems inevitable that they'll watch her tear through every ghoul in her path, and then proceed to take out the main villain of the adventure. As soon as she does that, her quest is at an end and she'll drop dead too. The PCs' reward for cleverly dealing with Iesha is that she'll finish the adventure for them? Lame.
Has anyone had this happen in their adventure? Is there a good way to fix it, or prevent it? Thanks!
My group hasn't gotten to this point yet (just finished Burnt Offerings), but here are my thoughts. For one thing, she can only constrict once, so her damage total is only 3d6+30 (I know - still nasty).
Second
Last, you don't have to be honest with dice rolling in a fight between two NPCs. Lie. Just describe it, and have Aldern beat her with enuogh strength left to pose a challenge for the PCs.
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(Not bothering to spoiler in a spoiler-labeled thread.)
Unless you have an extremely bloodthirsty and knee-jerk-violent group, I don't see any likelihood they'll fight her. She stands up, shouts exactly what her plans are, and then heads for the door, essentially ignoring the PCs. Only if they are carrying the portrait (unlikely) or the scarf (the same, though less so), or try to stop her from doing exactly what they've decided by then that they want to do is this at all likely to change.
As for Iesha vs Aldern... well, as it happens, Aldern is sitting next to a portrait of Iesha when she bursts in, albeit one that he has attempted to recreate as a portrait of his obsessed PC. IMC, she shredded him for a couple of rounds, then saw the painting and collapsed, at which point he destroyed her more or less at leisure. I took away half his hit points, which made him an extremely easy final boss for the PCs, but seemed reasonable.
There was an entire thread about this, including some good suggestions. My archive-fu, however, is weak. Sorry.
How do I browse the archives?
Creative Director
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Yeah... Iesha is tough, but her vulnerabilities and weaknesses are too. The portrait in Foxglove's lair can distract her, as can the scarf the PCs carry. These elements were included to soften her presence.
If she reaches Foxglove ahead of the PCs, you can simply describe the results of what happens there when the PCs arrive. My suggestion is to have her defeated but have Foxglove reduced to 1/2 or 1/3 his hit points.
If she reaches Foxglove at about the same time the PCs do, I'd just run her as an NPC in the battle. In this case, yeah, she'll probably tear Foxglove apart (as long as the PCs can prevent her from being distracted by that portrait), but it'll happen "on scene" so that's cool; that's actually the "best" way to "solve" Foxglove Manor, in fact.
My group hasn't gotten to this point yet (just finished Burnt Offerings), but here are my thoughts. For one thing, she can only constrict once, so her damage total is only 3d6+30 (I know - still nasty).
Second [Spoiler] She would run right past the other encounters in the lower level, so the PCs still have to deal with the ghouls and the bat. That's on top of the haunts, and the ability damage they're probably carrying around. I don't think it will ruin the adventure if Iesha softens him up a bit.
Last, you don't have to...
I think she, and monsters like her with multiple improved grab/constrict attacks, can do better. Unless I'm running the rules incorrectly (entirely possible with grapple) she can attack with the first claw, automatically grapple, automatically constrict, then release the grapple as a free action, then attack with the second claw, and repeat. Rather than getting tangled up grappling one target, I always assumed this was how creatures like giant scorpions scored the big damage. As a sidenote, if she overcomes her self-loathing on a PC or when she's fighting Aldern, her damage goes up insanely, especially if you channel her "Reason to Hate" bonuses toward damage, which is probably what she'd do. Two claw attacks at +11 (1d6+10) become two claw attacks at +12 (1d6+17) with full Power Attack. She only needs to roll a 7 to hit Aldern, and PCs probably don't have much higher ACs than his.
She could (and should, for the sake of the adventure) just breeze past the guards, although that's a bit odd - they're guards, after all. Just because she's undead doesn't mean they'll think she's on their team. And if they interfered with her, I assumed she'd react to the them the same way she would the PCs - she'd attack them, most likely killing them in one hit, and then move on, unless they survived her initial onslaught and then backed off.
Unless you have an extremely bloodthirsty and knee-jerk-violent group, I don't see any likelihood they'll fight her. She stands up, shouts exactly what her plans are, and then heads for the door, essentially ignoring the PCs. Only if they are carrying the portrait (unlikely) or the scarf (the same, though less so), or try to stop her from doing exactly what they've decided by then that they want to do is this at all likely to change.
As for Iesha vs Aldern... well, as it happens, Aldern is sitting next to a portrait of Iesha when she bursts in, albeit one that he has attempted to recreate as a portrait of his obsessed PC. IMC, she shredded him for a couple of rounds, then saw the painting and collapsed, at which point he destroyed her more or less at leisure. I took away half his hit points, which made him an extremely easy final boss for the PCs, but seemed reasonable.
I agree - unless I portrayed the situation differently, I believe my players will catch on and let the crazy lady do what she wants. Even though it creates a new problem, this is probably better than them having to fight her.
I like the idea for why Aldern might be able to defeat Iesha, but unfortunately it doesn't really seem possible given the rules: the Self-Loathing effect that renders Iesha helpless ends immediately if she is attacked or if she sees her murderer. With Aldern right there in the room, she is effectively immune to mirrors and portraits, and is wholly consumed by her desire to kill. Aldern really has no defense. If she hits with only one claw per round, Aldern will be taking around 20 damage each round until he pops.
There was an entire thread about this, including some good suggestions. My archive-fu, however, is weak. Sorry.
No prob, I should've checked more thoroughly myself. However, the paizo website is going at a snail's pace for me right now - is everything okay? It's been that way since last night, it seems, and the rest of my net connection is doing just fine.
If anyone has a link to that thread, I'd be grateful to see it.
Yeah... Iesha is tough, but her vulnerabilities and weaknesses are too. The portrait in Foxglove's lair can distract her, as can the scarf the PCs carry. These elements were included to soften her presence.
If she reaches Foxglove ahead of the PCs, you can simply describe the results of what happens there when the PCs arrive. My suggestion is to have her defeated but have Foxglove reduced to 1/2 or 1/3 his hit points.
If she reaches Foxglove at about the same time the PCs do, I'd just run her as an NPC in the battle. In this case, yeah, she'll probably tear Foxglove apart (as long as the PCs can prevent her from being distracted by that portrait), but it'll happen "on scene" so that's cool; that's actually the "best" way to "solve" Foxglove Manor, in fact.
This seems like it could work out well, though it is odd about the portrait in Aldern's lair - it seems like that shouldn't work, according to the revenant stats. But if it's supposed to be a counter to her claws of death, I'll go with it. Thanks!
I think she, and monsters like her with multiple improved grab/constrict attacks, can do better. Unless I'm running the rules incorrectly (entirely possible with grapple) she can attack with the first claw, automatically grapple, automatically constrict, then release the grapple as a free action, then attack with the second claw, and repeat. Rather than getting tangled up grappling one target, I always assumed this was how creatures like giant scorpions scored the big damage. As a sidenote, if she overcomes her self-loathing on a PC or when she's fighting Aldern, her damage goes up insanely, especially if you channel her "Reason to Hate" bonuses toward damage, which is probably what she'd do. Two claw attacks at +11 (1d6+10) become two claw attacks at +12 (1d6+17) with full Power Attack. She only needs to roll a 7 to hit Aldern, and PCs probably don't have much higher ACs than his.
Actually, you are running this incorrectly. In the Revenant description of Improved Grab (SM, p. 90), it states that, "To use this ability, a revenant must hit with both claw attacks against a target of equal or smaller size. It can then attempt to start a grapple ... If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict."
Thus, Iesha cannot constrict after hitting with one claw, she must wait until she has hit the same target with both claws. Further, she cannot inflict the Constrict damage until she makes a separate grapple check, not the one used with Improved Grab to catch hold of the target in the first place. This second grapple check (and all subsequent ones) are standard actions and, therefore, have to wait until the round after the initial grab.
So, Round 1: Iesha hits with one claw, hits with another, and makes an opposed grapple roll to initiate a grapple (full action). Round 2: Iesha makes an opposed grapple roll to inflict Constrict damage (= to claw + constrict damage). By the way, remember that Iesha loses all Dex bonuses to AC while she is grappling her target, unless she takes a -20 roll to the opposed grapple check.
Hope that helps.
O
PS I made Iesha's constrict damage = 2d6+20, since I wasn't sure about adding in both claws and 3d6+30 seemed a little ridiculous for my party.
Actually, you are running this incorrectly. In the Revenant description of Improved Grab (SM, p. 90), it states that, "To use this ability, a revenant must hit with both claw attacks against a target of equal or smaller size. It can then attempt to start a grapple ... If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict."
Thus, Iesha cannot constrict after hitting with one claw, she must wait until she has hit the same target with both claws. Further, she cannot inflict the Constrict damage until she makes a separate grapple check, not the one used with Improved Grab to catch hold of the target in the first place. This second grapple check (and all subsequent ones) are standard actions and, therefore, have to wait until the round after the initial grab.
Ah, I see. I hadn't read the Improved Grab description for her, and had assumed that the just had to hit with one claw.
As for the part about not being able to constrict on that round, though, I don't believe you're correct. The description of the Improved Grab ability says that she can do just that (see The Online SRD):
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
Emphasis mine.
So, she could hit with both claw attacks, successfully initiate a grapple and deal constrict damage, and then release her opponent as a free action and avoid taking any grapple penalties thereafter. This definitely a better tactic than wrestling with one PC, and suffering the penalties of grappling.
Here's a new question: why is she dealing 1d6+10 points of damage with each claw attack? With a Strength of 24, shouldn't her damage bonus be +7? Given her attack bonus, it seems evident that her stats don't factor in Power Attack. Is she getting 1.5x her Strength bonus to damage with each claw? That would explain the missing +3 to damage, but is also pretty unorthodox for a claw attack, isn't it?
When I ran this, I buffed up Aldern a little more by adding the negatively charged template to him. Then, when the PCs burst into the room, I just liberally dropped a dozen or so ghoul miniatures on the battle map lying face down, dead. Then, I described the scene as a massacre where Iesha slaughtered all the mundane ghouls, but while she was being distracted by the ghouls, Aldern finished her off, leaving a cruel gash across her already bloated undead throat.
This allowed the PCs to fight a memorable battle with Aldern, while at the same time, feeling somber about the "sacrifice" that Iesha made to allow them to go toe-to-toe with Aldern. (Imagine having to fight 12 ghouls + Aldern :D)
I had 8 players when I ran this btw.
When I ran this, I buffed up Aldern a little more by adding the negatively charged template to him. Then, when the PCs burst into the room, I just liberally dropped a dozen or so ghoul miniatures on the battle map lying face down, dead. Then, I described the scene as a massacre where Iesha slaughtered all the mundane ghouls, but while she was being distracted by the ghouls, Aldern finished her off, leaving a cruel gash across her already bloated undead throat.
This allowed the PCs to fight a memorable battle with Aldern, while at the same time, feeling somber about the "sacrifice" that Iesha made to allow them to go toe-to-toe with Aldern. (Imagine having to fight 12 ghouls + Aldern :D)
I like it!! It gives the players the feeling that they gained something by properly dealing with Iesha, and also takes her out of the eventual combat for a plausible reason, leaving Aldern looking even scarier than he would have otherwise. I will probably go with this!! Thanks! :)
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We just started the Misgivings tonight and my PCs went up before they went down, thus freeing Iesha.
She almost killed the halfling rogue who got in her way but the PCs then let her go, healed the rogue and followed her down the stairs.
They had to contest a few hauntings but Iesha did not get too far ahead. The reason? There is a locked door leading into the wizard's arcane laboratory. The halfling rogue, seeing Iesha paid no attention to him when he didn't get in her way, slipped up next to her as she clawed at the door and picked the lock. She ran down the stairs ahead of them again.
When they caught up with her in Aldern's room, being led by her cries through the tunnels, she was surrounded by ghouls (don't forget all those ghouls down there that will rush to protect their leader).
We did not run the fight tonight but as the PCs take in the scene, the undead bat is rushing up behind them and The whole fight will be chaotic and filled with cinematic cries of love/lust (Aldern for his PC obsession), wrath (Iesha), Pride (His Lordship), etc.
It should make for a good fight. Especially when the bat swoops in.
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Oooo...
I'm a player, and it looks like I really fubar'ed this encounter. I built my cleric o' Sarenrae to be a real undead killer and fried Iesha on r1. I guess we missed out on some plot stuff. DM's take note--it's possible.