RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Good!... but for every Pathfinder there has been a dozen truly awful independent productions.I don't believe for a second that having a $5000 entrance fee will mean that 4e support products will be of better quality.
Agreed, wasn't Mongoose in on that conference call?
I've almost erased the stain their quintessential books left on my bookshelf.
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From WotC boards: Wizards
Someone asked if you could play the game with just the new SRD, and WotC_Andy said "The SRD will not be a replacement for the Player's Handbook."
Which begs the questions: Why even put out an SRD?
Which begs the questions: Why even put out an SRD?
Think of it as a Windows System Development Kit. The SRD exists to allow third parties to produce products that are compatible with 4E but not to produce stand-alone games, just as a SDK isn't intended to let a third party software manufacturer to produce his own operating system.
That the 3E SRD did allow this option just speaks to its specific greatness and beauty, not to the nature of an SRD in the abstract.
We are very pleased that Wizards of the Coast is extending the Open Gaming movement into a new edition of the game. We have already signaled our interest in moving forward with Phase 1, which involves getting a look at the OGL. Assuming that the new form of the agreement is acceptable, we will definitely look at the new game to see if it makes sense for Paizo to publish products that support it.
We have not yet made a decision regarding fourth edition and won't until all the cards are on the table. The difference going forward is that the card game has now started, and the dealer is getting ready to begin play.
$5,000 ante. Yikes! I hope you get a good draw, but I think you're headed for a 2 and 7 of mixed suits. ;)
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From the Gleemax boards---
To elaborate on what Andy said:The 4e SRD will be a "reference document" for publishers working under the 4e OGL to know what content can be used in their own products. It will reference sections and passages from 4e D&D books and will also contain table/formating guidelines like the monster stat block to allow for consistency among products.
It will not be a stripped down core rulebook (PHB) that largely allows you to play D&D.
I hope this answers the question.
So much for testing this out before I go in. I planned on using the SRD to judge if 4E was worth a closer look. Now I can't without spending hours at a bookstore reading or just buying the damn book.
Bad for them. I ain't buyin'. I said I will follow Paizo where they lead but now I gotta say, I won't do 4E. If Paizo goes that way I fear I will have to cancel my subscriptions.Off to change my poll vote.....
Hm . . . I'm starting to think I may not be as crazy as I think I am sometimes:
Ahem . . . the bottom post.
I could still be way off base, but I think I might have had a moment of clarity. Time will tell I guess.
We shall see. I'm personally of the opinion that the utterly unrestricted nature of the 3E OGL led to some amazing designs that simply will not be comparably possible under the 4E version. We may well see lots of extremely good third party D&D support products under this new OGL but what we won't see are exciting new games that use the 4E rules to go in new directions and I think that's a shame. A gaming world where Mutants & Masterminds or Spycraft 2.o are no longer possible is a less vibrant one for me.
Seconded. However, in time we may well see capable publishers using the 3.5 SRD for what they need. It's discouraging because d20 gave such a broad platform for a game. You generally know the basics, the guts, like what an AoO was and how many actions you get, before you crack open the books. Then the variant rules were easier to pick up.
My question to Paizo is whether the outlined time schedule allows you to jump on board for August releases?
The OGL Designers Kit will be available "within a matter of weeks" (the kit contains "three hardcopy pre-publication versions of the three core rule books, copies of the OGL and SRD, and a FAQ.") - will that leave time to change products from August and onwards?
Also, "Publishers will continue to receive updates to these rules as changes are made, one in the beginning of February and possibly one in March" - so if changes are made that will affect August products from Paizo, will this still leave time to change the galleys before going to print?
You look pretty much on target.Psst. Can I get some lotto numbers from ya too? ;D
Eh, don't trust me too much. I swore Crystal Pepsi was the wave of the future. I think it was the Van Halen marketing campaign that fooled me.
You should have known better man! No David Lee Roth!
Oh, dude, how could you . . . it Sammy by that time! Ah well, at least it wasn't Gary Sharone . . .
{Protoss} You think as I do {/Protoss}
Well its good to know someone else couldn't stand Gary Sharone as well . . . "Fire in the Hole," my as . . . oh, you meant about the blog?
I am encouraged as well.We shall see. I'm personally of the opinion that the utterly unrestricted nature of the 3E OGL led to some amazing designs that simply will not be comparably possible under the 4E version. We may well see lots of extremely good third party D&D support products under this new OGL but what we won't see are exciting new games that use the 4E rules to go in new directions and I think that's a shame. A gaming world where Mutants & Masterminds or Spycraft 2.o are no longer possible is a less vibrant one for me.Agreed. If it weren't for games like Conan, Spycraft, Game of Thrones, etc. I wouldn't have purchased ANY WotC books.
There's also no way in hell that I'd abandon those games.
Can't the 3rd companies release new products under the 3.5 ogl with the 4e feel? It's the same system, d20 system.
Can't they release Spycrat 3 with "4e" rules but legally under the 3.5 ogl? If they can recreate the d20 system to create Spycraft, why can't they strecht it a little more to reach the something close to 4E? Just turn saving throws into static defenses, make new classes with lots of at will/per encounter/per day powers, create new feats with the 4E feat philosophy, use make some talent trees, that are already in the d20 modern OGL anyway, etc etc etc.
Conclusion: If 3rd party companies stretched the 3.5 OGL to create completely new games such as Spycraft, M&M, Arcana Evolved, Trued20, etc, why can't they create a new one that looks a lot like 4e and share its feel and philosophy, but still under 3.5 OGL?
Conclusion: If 3rd party companies stretched the 3.5 OGL to create completely new games such as Spycraft, M&M, Arcana Evolved, Trued20, etc, why can't they create a new one that looks a lot like 4e and share its feel and philosophy, but still under 3.5 OGL?
A lot depends on both how easily derivable 4E mechanics are from 3.5's (my guess is it'll be a bit of a stretch) and -- this is the important thing -- how vigorously WotC will defend 4E's unique elements legally. If what we know of the new "OGL" is anything to go by, it looks as if they're quite keen to prevent third party's getting the jump on them or making a buck off their design without ponying up. A third party company would need to be very legally savvy and daring to create a 3.5-derived 4E-compatible game, which isn't to say it won't happen or that someone won't try it. Rather, the new "OGL" is a bucket of cold water on the D20 open gaming movement.
Ooh oohh!
They're Mearls and the Rouse,
Mearls and the Rouse,
One is a Writer,
The other works in-house
They work for WotC
Writing games you see
Theyr'e Mearls and the Rouse Rouse Rouse RouseAfter June you see
They'll have carved up the SRD
By the start of 2009
Playtesting 5th E will be online.They're Mearls and the Rouse,
Yes, Mearls and the Rouse,
Their legal campaign
Is easy to explainTo make the SRD
Useless to you and Me
Redacted, Theyr'e Mearls and the Rouse Rouse Rouse Rouse
Rouse Rouse Rouse Rouse
Rouse!
For the record, I'm enjoying singing this while working on my current project.
Rather, the new "OGL" is a bucket of cold water on the D20 open gaming movement.
Which is why I believe that Mongoose is the current reigning champion of the open game community.
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Gotta love Monte Cook!
{Is a more successful company like Green Ronin going to make the investment in something they've never seen before? }
Gah. Good point. One that I should have mentioned myself, since it's one that I've harped on before in a different context. They're asking 5K to support a game no one's seen. That's a lot of trust.
I mean, given the people involved, I'm sure 4E will be at the very least a pretty good game (although one I'm fairly certain I won't play), but other people don't even necessarily have that experience with these guys to go on. What are publishers supposed to base this $5 investment on, the designer blogs everyone talks about?
Goodman announced they're getting they're doing the early release. While no one knows for certain, its a pretty reasonable guess that adventures are going to be allowed.
Frankly, if they're hanging in there now, it seems like they could go for another few months. Those still around are either secondary concerns (that is to say, it's not the people's main job) or have successful non-d20 lines to support themselves.
Oddly enough, this doesn't describe Paizo. Paizo really is one of the few d20 companies that does this as their full time job and don't have major non-d20 lines (ok, they have amazing stories and they sell other people's products, but they're known for Pathfinder/GMM).
Mostly, though, the announcement put me in a really good mood, that I can only compare to someone calling me on the phone and saying, "if you had decided to go to the store today, you would have got in an auto accident and suffered $5,000 worth of damage to your car." In other words, just by doing nothing, I suddenly feel $5,000 richer.
Gotta love this quote.
Good!... but for every Pathfinder there has been a dozen truly awful independent productions.I don't believe for a second that having a $5000 entrance fee will mean that 4e support products will be of better quality.Agreed, wasn't Mongoose in on that conference call?
I've almost erased the stain their quintessential books left on my bookshelf.
You do realize Mike Mearls wrote those Quintessential books, as well as some of MGP's Ultimate series (Ultimate Prestige Classes vol.1).
And where did it get him? Designing D&D4 for WotC, and that should teach MGP for hiring hack writers. =)|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Rather, the new "OGL" is a bucket of cold water on the D20 open gaming movement.Which I think is a good thing. A lot of great products have come out of d20 but it has also stopped a lot of folks from trying some really good non-d20 games.
Interesting feeling. Any examples? mean I play battletech still on occasion, and I'm hoping the new OGL D6 will spur a revitalization of that system.
Now I will confess I've lost interest in WoD after McWoD but that's more from the 2nd world of Darkness set up vs the system.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Agreed, wasn't Mongoose in on that conference call?
I've almost erased the stain their quintessential books left on my bookshelf.
You do realize Mike Mearls wrote those Quintessential books, as well as some of MGP's Ultimate series (Ultimate Prestige Classes vol.1).
And where did it get him? Designing D&D4 for WotC, and that should teach MGP for hiring hack writers. =)
That doesn't change that they're some of the most unbalanced bit of drek I'd read.
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Interesting feeling. Any examples?
Crimson/Cursed Empire. This game is AWESOME. Great setting, interesting rules. Just overall cool.
Chronicles of Ramlar. I'm not 100% sold on the setting, but the rules are sweet.
Talislanta. One of the best games ever. Simple, elegant, fun.
Savage Worlds. Cool as hell, useable with any genre.
Good!... but for every Pathfinder there has been a dozen truly awful independent productions.I don't believe for a second that having a $5000 entrance fee will mean that 4e support products will be of better quality.
Exactly. If anything, it might very well mean that the quality of those products that are considered decent right now will become worse. That money has to come from somewhere. It's either that or higher prices.
Hm . . . I'm starting to think I may not be as crazy as I think I am sometimes:
Ahem . . . the bottom post.
I could still be way off base, but I think I might have had a moment of clarity. Time will tell I guess.
If any of those points should prove true, I'll flat out refuse to play 4e in any way, including Pathfinder/ Chronicles should they move to 4e.
I guess that if Paizo decides to to along with 4e, they'll have to make 3e versions of Pathfinder, or maybe conversion manuals (and pretty fast. I'd like to have them as soon as my credit card is charged) or they'll lose a lot of subscriptions.
{Is a more successful company like Green Ronin going to make the investment in something they've never seen before? }
That's one of the parts that reaffirms my believe that wizards is just in for the Big Buck: They charge other publishers 5000$ dollars so they can decide whether they like the new rules or not.
This puts those publishers in a tight spot: Risk 5000$ so that we can get in early on the 4e market should we decide we want it (and blowing a non-trivial amount of money on a hunch) or wait till next year and lose potential profit if it turns out that the game is good.
For wizards, they profit off it either way: Publishers either lose several months of competition or give them money (which won't be paid back if they decide that the new system is rubbish).
Interesting feeling. Any examples?Crimson/Cursed Empire. This game is AWESOME. Great setting, interesting rules. Just overall cool.
Chronicles of Ramlar. I'm not 100% sold on the setting, but the rules are sweet.
Talislanta. One of the best games ever. Simple, elegant, fun.
Savage Worlds. Cool as hell, useable with any genre.
Chronocles of Ramlar found out how to pour pure 'fun' into rules.
Other examples I'd like to add:
GURPS.
WEG d6.
Tri-Stat (OOP now).
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This puts those publishers in a tight spot: Risk 5000$ so that we can get in early on the 4e market should we decide we want it (and blowing a non-trivial amount of money on a hunch) or wait till next year and lose potential profit if it turns out that the game is good.
Such is the price of being a hanger-on of a system that belongs to somebody else.
{Is a more successful company like Green Ronin going to make the investment in something they've never seen before? }
For the record, Monte didn't write that; he was quoting someone else to make it clear which comment he was responding to.
Such is the price of being a hanger-on of a system that belongs to somebody else.
This, at the end of the day, sums it all up.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Interesting feeling. Any examples?Crimson/Cursed Empire. This game is AWESOME. Great setting, interesting rules. Just overall cool.
Chronicles of Ramlar. I'm not 100% sold on the setting, but the rules are sweet.
Talislanta. One of the best games ever. Simple, elegant, fun.
Savage Worlds. Cool as hell, useable with any genre.
Thanks I'll have to check them out. Do you know if they're PDFs? I've only a finite amount of room in a one bedroom aparement.
Phase 2:Excute order 66
Spirit of the Century has gotten some rave reviews.
Phase One publishers who sign a NDA will have the opportunity to read the OGL before they pay the $5000 early licensing fee.
In all fairness, they did say that companies will get to read the OGL before they have to pay the $5000. So if a company doesn't like the wording of the OGL or the options it allows they can choose not to pay the $5000 and not participate.
Thanks I'll have to check them out. Do you know if they're PDFs? I've only a finite amount of room in a one bedroom aparement.Interesting feeling. Any examples?Crimson/Cursed Empire. This game is AWESOME. Great setting, interesting rules. Just overall cool.
Chronicles of Ramlar. I'm not 100% sold on the setting, but the rules are sweet.
Talislanta. One of the best games ever. Simple, elegant, fun.
Savage Worlds. Cool as hell, useable with any genre.
Spirit of the Century has gotten some rave reviews.
I looked at that one in the store, and it looked quite fun. Havn't had a chance to get it yet. My money tree died. :P
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Thanks I'll have to check them out. Do you know if they're PDFs? I've only a finite amount of room in a one bedroom aparement.here
Cool, thanks. I'll have to check them out when I get paid on Friday. Nice thing about call auditing. I can read PDFs while I'm auditing calls.
That doesn't change that they're some of the most unbalanced bit of drek I'd read.Agreed, wasn't Mongoose in on that conference call?
I've almost erased the stain their quintessential books left on my bookshelf.
You do realize Mike Mearls wrote those Quintessential books, as well as some of MGP's Ultimate series (Ultimate Prestige Classes vol.1).
And where did it get him? Designing D&D4 for WotC, and that should teach MGP for hiring hack writers. =)
And that doesn't change that you are painting Mongoose with a broad brush. Apparently some of their stuff was good enough that WotC tried to lure the writers away to design D&D4.
P.S. I know, some of MGP books were crap with a stick. But on a book by book basis there is still some good things they put out.
Love that system. You just made my day with that news.
Interesting feeling. Any examples? mean I play battletech still on occasion, and I'm hoping the new OGL D6 will spur a revitalization of that system.Now I will confess I've lost interest in WoD after McWoD but that's more from the 2nd world of Darkness set up vs the system.
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And that doesn't change that you are painting Mongoose with a broad brush. Apparently some of their stuff was good enough that WotC tried to lure the writers away to design D&D4.
P.S. I know, some of MGP books were crap with a stick. But on a book by book basis there is still some good things they put out.
Mongoose is the only publisher that got an absolute ban at our gaming table. Nothing from them was even to be considered.
And that doesn't change that you are painting Mongoose with a broad brush. Apparently some of their stuff was good enough that WotC tried to lure the writers away to design D&D4.
P.S. I know, some of MGP books were crap with a stick. But on a book by book basis there is still some good things they put out.Mongoose is the only publisher that got an absolute ban at our gaming table. Nothing from them was even to be considered.
Well, like I said earlier. Mike Mearls wrote some of those books. And he is designing D&D4. So I guess your going to be banning 4e?
EDIT:: Posted to the wrong thread for some reason.
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And that doesn't change that you are painting Mongoose with a broad brush. Apparently some of their stuff was good enough that WotC tried to lure the writers away to design D&D4.
P.S. I know, some of MGP books were crap with a stick. But on a book by book basis there is still some good things they put out.
Mongoose is the only publisher that got an absolute ban at our gaming table. Nothing from them was even to be considered.
Well, like I said earlier. Mike Mearls wrote some of those books. And he is designing D&D4. So I guess your going to be banning 4e?
Strangely enough, yes, thank you for asking. :)
It's not the Sword and Sorcery genre that D&D has always been. It's now Fantasy Supers, and I just don't want to play that kind of game. I'm not saying it's going to be a bad game, just different enough that it doesn't interest me. I might one day play, here and there, but it would be like pulling out my old Marvel books and hacking around with that for a weekend, or having a one-shot Battletech battle when there aren't enough people around to play D&D (3.5, of course). It's a different game, a different genre, and it's not one I'm interested in.
It does, somehow, seem perfect that Mike Mearls started at Mongoose. My group will get a kick out of that when I tell them. :)
In all fairness, they did say that companies will get to read the OGL before they have to pay the $5000. So if a company doesn't like the wording of the OGL or the options it allows they can choose not to pay the $5000 and not participate.
Man, I've been hanging out with too many lawyers, but I wonder about this as well. If the OGL is a series of references to the 4th edition rules, without spelling them out, are they going to show people the 4th edition rules before they pay $5000, or will they literally just allow the prospective developers a look at just the OGL, itself?
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Man, I've been hanging out with too many lawyers, but I wonder about this as well. If the OGL is a series of references to the 4th edition rules, without spelling them out, are they going to show people the 4th edition rules before they pay $5000, or will they literally just allow the prospective developers a look at just the OGL, itself?
You're confusing two things. The OGL is the actual legal agreement under which WotC will be allowing other publishers to create material based on the 4th Edition game system.
So, publishers have to sign an NDA, then they get to look at the agreement that they'd be operating under. If they're okay with the level of freedom they'd have as publishers, they can then pay $5000 in exchange for an early look at the rules themselves. If they don't feel like they'd be able to create the products they want under the terms of the new OGL, then they can walk away none the poorer.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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someone wrote: " I don't believe for a second that having a $5000 entrance fee will mean that 4e support products will be of better quality"
Of course it will. Cooperating companies with a love of the game (say, oh, Necro and Paizo) will publish careful content that is exciting and protects the balance and spirit of the game. Lesser game companies will have to pay $5k for the privilege of writing boring books with bad presentation and broken mechanics. Ever read some of AEG's soft cover d20 books? Feats, Evil and Good were terrible. But every where you go, casual players are screwing up good DND games with rules from these books.
Hey - I love AEG. Spycraft, 7th Sea, L5R. Awesome and I hope there's a way for each of those lines to resurge. But The DnD books didn't do the game justice. Imagine an even less choosy company publishing a book that is less balanced and professional than Feats. If you paid to be in phase 1, you either were sure the investment was worthwhile, or you had $5k to throw around.
Economics: You get what you pay for. Unless you're a pirate. Then you just make things more expensive for everyone.
Well, like I said earlier. Mike Mearls wrote some of those books. And he is designing D&D4. So I guess your going to be banning 4e?Strangely enough, yes, thank you for asking. :)
As long as your consistant. =)
Ever read some of AEG's soft cover d20 books? Feats, Evil and Good were terrible. But every where you go, casual players are screwing up good DND games with rules from these books.
Funny. Two out of three of those are written by ... Mike Mearls! (Good, and Evil.)
LMAO All these books people are complaining about and the guy that did them is doing D&D4.Edit: I guess that is the greatest irony of the statement made to the effect of "D&D3 is unfun because of this and that. So we (the same exact people who made it unfun) are making fun D&D4."