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No one in my group ever hides (including the thief) and I want to make sure I play this right. Say I made a hide roll before going into the room and rolled a total of 43. I then enter the room and no one spots me. I then sneak attack a person. Am I visible to everyone now or do they need to make spot checks? Thanks for the help.
you are visible to everyone, you may however attempt to "Snipe" in combat hiding immediatly after your attack but taking a -20 on your hide check.
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Bear in mind that unless you have hide in plain sight, you need something to hide behind/in. Shadows, stacked boxes, a crowd, etc. You can't just "hide" your way up to the king in a well lit, spacious, sparsely inhabited throne room and take a shot at him.
If you discreetly attack the person, you can still be hidden, so long as the other conditions are met. I.E.: You can hide in shadows up to a guard, kill him in a single blow, and lower his body to the floor without "becoming visible." The DM should probably at least give listen checks for that though, IMHO.
In the example above, if anyone was watching the lone guard, you would become visible. You are correct that sniping is only for ranged attacks.
I think The Shining Fool just about nailed it.
1st, You need something to hie in / behind (usually concealment and / or cover)
2nd You hide as part of a move action. So when you attempt to move up to the guard and attack, you make a hide check (opposed by his spot check), if you win, he doesn't see you and you can sneak attack him.
The rules are a bit fuzzy on what happens next. I would say if others are watching the guy you killed, they see you. Although, providing there was something for you to hide behind, you can then hide again with a move action. If they aren't watching the guard (or can't see him, due to cover / concealment etc), then you are probably still hidden from them.
RPG Superstar 2013
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I think the snipe reference is in general. You can attempt to hide while taking an action. There's just a -20 penalty. That's referenced at the top of the description for Hide in the SRD, although the actual word snipe is a reference to the same activity from a ranged attack.
Same penalty for both, though.
I always found these rules to be very fuzzy.
They seem to tell me how to hide, which is kind of cool but not what happens after that.
So, in the example above, we have a guy that hides and then sneaks up on a guard.
OK the hiding bit I understand how to do but the sneaking up part has me stumped. Well actually what has me stumped is what happens when their are multiple guards. Do you need to do an opposed check versus all of them? What happens if instead of a PC sneaking up on a bunch of NPCs its a monster sneaking up on the PCs - is there an opposed check versus every PC? if so then hiding seems impossible.
How many hide checks are made? Once per round or are you 'hiding in shadows' indefinitely against this target after you make your first roll?
OK so they spotted my nasty McVillian who was trying to sneak up on them...well when did they spot him? Start of his turn, end of it? Just where is McVillian when he is unmasked?
Lets say McVillian pulls it off - he sneaks up on them and attacks? So is this a surprise round? I'd suppose so but its not really clear on this issue.
I've bumped into other practical problems regarding this in play as well. I hide my McVillian in the room behind some cover, say a knocked down table. Then I have him sneak up on the players...who immediately cry foul. How the heck did the guy sneak out from behind the cover without us seeing him? They demand. You just read the descriptive text - we must have all been staring at that cover he was hiding behind!
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I always found these rules to be very fuzzy.
They seem to tell me how to hide, which is kind of cool but not what happens after that.
So, in the example above, we have a guy that hides and then sneaks up on a guard.
OK the hiding bit I understand how to do but the sneaking up part has me stumped. Well actually what has me stumped is what happens when their are multiple guards. Do you need to do an opposed check versus all of them? What happens if instead of a PC sneaking up on a bunch of NPCs its a monster sneaking up on the PCs - is there an opposed check versus every PC? if so then hiding seems impossible.
This is a lot easier to explain with a dry erase board, but here goes...
x
x
x
x.......c
x.A....c.B
x.......c
xxx....xxxxxxxxxx
...............V
For this diagram, let's assume that V is your hider, A is a guard, and B is a guard. The x marks on the left are a wall and the line of c marks are some sort of cover, lets say a row of boxes stacked a few feet high.
In this scenario, V makes a hide check as he starts in to the room. If the room is well lit, then he is visible to A as soon as A has line of sight; no spot check required. B still needs to spot V (though A's screams of "Hey! What are you doing here?" might tip him off).
Now, let's assume that both A and B are on B's side of the wall of boxes. In that case, both make spot checks against V's single hide check. If either succeeds, V is in some hot water.
How many hide checks are made? Once per round or are you 'hiding in shadows' indefinitely against this target after you make your first roll?
There haven't been any clear rulings on this that I am aware of, but I have always considered it to be indefinite unless there is some sort of change (i.e: new guards, or after settling down for ten minutes you decide to move again, or the guards go on their hourly perimeter sweep, etc.) I do give the occasional listen check though, and if the hider was wanting to stay hidden for hours, I'd make them do some sort of concentration check, or a fort save or something. Sitting very, very still is actually exhausting work.
OK so they spotted my nasty McVillian who was trying to sneak up on them...well when did they spot him? Start of his turn, end of it? Just where is McVillian when he is unmasked?
There are no hard fast rules on when the opponent is spotted either, but I have always adjudicated it as either A) half-way through V's movement, or B) when line of sight would have been gained had V not been hiding. I'm kind of 50/50 on that.
Lets say McVillian pulls it off - he sneaks up on them and attacks? So is this a surprise round? I'd suppose so but its not really clear on this issue.
It is absolutely a surprise round, and a sweet delicious one for the hider, at that. Remember that they are flat footed until they do something, so your hider has the potential of hitting them twice before they can react (enough time for a good rogue to kill both of our hapless guards)
I've bumped into other practical problems regarding this in play as well. I hide my McVillian in the room behind some cover, say a knocked down table. Then I have him sneak up on the players...who immediately cry foul. How the heck did the guy sneak out from behind the cover without us seeing him? They demand. You just read the descriptive text - we must have all been staring at that cover he was hiding behind!
I'd cry foul too. Assuming that the room is well lit (as we have been for all of this) our hider can't sneak across the uncovered room. He has to have something to hide in. Let him sit behind the table until the first PC walks past, and then have the hider deliver a nasty shock.
Now, if the room were shadowy, and there was something bright and distracting (or expensive, or menacing, or whatever) in another corner of the room...maybe the PCs will learn to carry better torches next time.
Yay having played with people obsessed with rogues for the last 7 years!
I think the Shining Fool is pretty much on the money. I checked my copy of Rules Compendium, and basically it works like this.
First, as stated earlier, you need something to hide behind (at least cover or concealment). Then you make a hide check as you move behind it. This is opposed by Spot check from everyone who has a chance of seeing you.
If you want to move up and attack a guard, if that guard is in the "open" (ie away from cover/concelament), then you make a Hide check with a -5 penalty for every 5 feet of open ground you need to cover. Again, this is oppossed by everyone who could see you.
Jeremy, provided you have cover / concealment, you can move at up to half your speed and hide without penalty. In this case I would rule the sneaker makes a hide check every round, opposed by their enemies spot checks to see if they are discovered.
Check out the spoiler below for the full entry from Rules Compendium.
You can move up to half your speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. You can take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to hide while attacking, running or charging.
If someone is observing you, even casually, you can't hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you're out of sight and then hide, but the others then at least know where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted, you can attempt to hide. While others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. The hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide. This check however is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
If you're successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible.
Blend into Crowd: You can use the Hide skill to blend into a crowd, but doing so conceals you only from someone scanning the area to find you. You remain visible to everyone around you, and if they happen to be hostile, they're likely to point you out.
Move between Cover: If you're already hiding thanks to cover or concealment, and have at least 5 ranks in Hide, you can make a Hide check (with a penalty) to try to move across an area that doesn't offer cover or concealment without revealing yourself. For every 5 ranks in Hide you posses, you can move up to 5 feet between one hiding place and another. For every 5 feet of space you must cross between hiding places, you take a -5 penalty on your Hide check. Movement speed penalises this check as normal.
Sneak up from Hiding: You can sneak up on someone after emerging from a hiding place. For every 5 feet of open space between you and the target, you take a -5 penalty on your Hide check. If your Hide check succeeds, your target doesn't notice you until you attack or perform some other attention grabbing action. Such a target is treated as being flat-footed with respect to you.
Sniping: If you've already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then take a move action to hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Thanks for the clarification guys.
That said it still seems near impossible to catch PCs unaware. Presuming something like 5 PCs in the average party and therefore something along the lines of 5 opposed checks often with big penalties this looks really tough. I suppose strikes from ambush are really the way to go so that only one or a few PCs have a chance to make the spot roll.
Ironically the best use of hide is against the scouting rogue. Chances are his spot check is reasonable and he's probably all alone.
Thanks for the clarification guys.
That said it still seems near impossible to catch PCs unaware. Presuming something like 5 PCs in the average party and therefore something along the lines of 5 opposed checks often with big penalties this looks really tough. I suppose strikes from ambush are really the way to go so that only one or a few PCs have a chance to make the spot roll.
Ironically the best use of hide is against the scouting rogue. Chances are his spot check is reasonable and he's probably all alone.
Well one thing to remember is for the "sneak up" part - you only need to sneak up on the one you attack, unless they have to move more than their half movement (to go unpenalized for speed). Any others that notice you will simply get to act in the surprise round
Thanks for posting the Rules compendium items - I just bought it but hadn't noticed the good Hide stuff in it.
Remember, just because they all get Spot checks, doesn't mean they have a good chance to succeed. Hide is a ridiculously easy skill to get obscene bonuses in, and Spot is cross class for most classes.
Well one thing to remember is for the "sneak up" part - you only need to sneak up on the one you attack, unless they have to move more than their half movement (to go unpenalized for speed). Any others that notice you will simply get to act in the surprise round
Thanks for posting the Rules compendium items - I just bought it but hadn't noticed the good Hide stuff in it.
Well now I'm confused again. My sneaky monster makes opposed checks versus the party. Some notice him and some don't. How the heck is he supposed to make an attack if he's 15' away from the target when they spot him? He could move up to the target during the surprise round, I suppose he could throw something but presuming he wants to stick a dagger in the victims back he can't really do that.
This of course heads back to the 'I've been spotted - but where was I when that took place?' question above, for which the best answer seems to be either 1/2 way to the target or when you emerged from cover.
Remember, just because they all get Spot checks, doesn't mean they have a good chance to succeed. Hide is a ridiculously easy skill to get obscene bonuses in, and Spot is cross class for most classes.
Still with something like 5 opposed rolls your likely to fail one of them unless your hide is more then 15 points higher then their average spot. Somewhere in their your probably going to roll something comparable to a 3 versus an 18 and its going to be all over.
I'm using Abyssal Gouls versus a 11th level party. The +20 to hide is pretty great versus this party. I doubt the Ninja PC has close to +20 to hide, maybe +13 or some such. But I can't see +20 actually keeping an Abyssal Goul Hidden, I figure the average PC has about +8 to spot. A few have much lower but then a couple have a good deal higher.
I also wonder a bit about the utility of hide. Now if I'm fuzzy on the rules and have not been corrected by the Ninja player then its probable he's fuzzy on them too but I notice that he does not really hide that often, though Ninja's do have invisibility .... come to think of it thats probably why he choose a Ninja, if you can't make heads or tails of the hide rules choosing a class that goes invisible is a pretty good way to get to much the same place.
Mevers, the citation you posted from the Rules Compendium says you need total cover or concealment to Hide (which it promptly follows by saying that total cover or concealment usually obviates the need to Hide). I just checked my 3.5 PHB and it just says "cover or concealment," not total. But I realize they are two different books, so I'm check to make sure that the Rules Compendium actually says that. If so, that's way too restrictive.
In regards to getting in an attack from hiding, the question seems to be "how does one move out from cover to deliver the attack without majorly risking detection?"
The answer: you don't.
You really need to let the enemies come within the range of your attacks, which is 5 feet with a dagger or shortsword or similar implement. Then you just attack them, no further Hide check necessary (but, of course, if they live or anyone else is around, you'll be detected; the ambush will have worked, though). However, it's kind of risky to simply bet the foes will come that close, unless special measures have been taken in arranging or selecting the terrain.
Ranged weapons are really the way to go here. The rogue Hides, then waits until something resembling a pin cushion walks within 30 feet. They attack with a crossbow or shortbow or thrown dagger or whatever. Again, no Hide check needed, guaranteed ambush (insofar as no risky movement is involved).
Mevers, the citation you posted from the Rules Compendium says you need total cover or concealment to Hide (which it promptly follows by saying that total cover or concealment usually obviates the need to Hide). I just checked my 3.5 PHB and it just says "cover or concealment," not total. But I realize they are two different books, so I'm check to make sure that the Rules Compendium actually says that. If so, that's way too restrictive.
Sorry, that's my mistake. Copied the text out wrong. You only need cover or concealment to hide (not total)
If you are attempting to sneak up on a group of PCs and are not specialised in hide, it should be hard. But note that getting spotted simply starts the encounter. There is still the surprise round (when you can do a partial charge to close the rest of the distance), and only those Pcs who spotted you get to act in the surprise round. Its not a case of one spots so all are aware.
Still with something like 5 opposed rolls your likely to fail one of them unless your hide is more then 15 points higher then their average spot. Somewhere in their your probably going to roll something comparable to a 3 versus an 18 and its going to be all over.I'm using Abyssal Gouls versus a 11th level party. The +20 to hide is pretty great versus this party. I doubt the Ninja PC has close to +20 to hide, maybe +13 or some such. But I can't see +20 actually keeping an Abyssal Goul Hidden, I figure the average PC has about +8 to spot. A few have much lower but then a couple have a good deal higher.
I also wonder a bit about the utility of hide. Now if I'm fuzzy on the rules and have not been corrected by the Ninja player then its probable he's fuzzy on them too but I notice that he does not really hide that often, though Ninja's do have invisibility .... come to think of it thats probably why he choose a Ninja, if you can't make heads or tails of the hide rules choosing a class that goes invisible is a pretty good way to get to much the same place.
I should hope your ninja has a hide in excess of +20 at level 11. I played a character who had a +16 at level 1 (admittedly, that was a whisper gnome with a 20 dex, and the whisper gnome is pretty insane for a rogue).
But coming back to your ninja. Level 11 = 14 skill ranks. An 20 dex is not out of the question (16 base +2 level up + 2 stat boosters) for another 5. If they are small, through in another +4, at at this stage if they are really looking to max it out, a cloak of hiding is cheap (2500gp) for another +5. So that's 28, without really trying. With just ranks and stats it's +19. I doubt there are many monsters that can actually make that spot check. Probably none if the ninja rolls well on the dice.
As for your Abyssal Ghouls, a +20 spot heck should be more than enough to beat most of the party. You probably only have 1, at most 2 with maxed out spot (I would assume the ninja, and any ranger/druids etc) or at least anything like decent. So they are likely to see the Ghouls approaching. But the other 3 probably have only their wis to spot, putting their bonus at around +5 tops I would think. Now your ghouls get +20 vs a +5 for the rest of the party. You should be able to sneak up on them no problems.
Sure, you'll probably be spotted by at least one of the party, that just means that individual gets to act in the surprise round, the rest won't get to act until the first full round of initiative, that's one (2 if you beat them on initiative) rounds of attacks against flat footed opponents.
1 more thing. You don't make individual hide checks against each PC. Each creature hiding makes ONE Hide check, adds their Hide bonus, and that's the Spot DC for everyone. It's not a case of "How well have you hidden from the Cleric? Now how well from the ninja? no how well from the fighter? etc.." It's "How well have you hidden? Ok, how well have the PCs 'spotted' you?
Ranged weapons are really the way to go here. The rogue Hides, then waits until something resembling a pin cushion walks within 30 feet. They attack with a crossbow or shortbow or thrown dagger or whatever. Again, no Hide check needed, guaranteed ambush (insofar as no risky movement is involved).
Actually, Saern -that isn't true. When someone is hiding, potential observers ALWAYS receive opposed spot checks -and free (reactive) ones at that! It doesn't matter if the hiding character moves or not.
A character's best defense is to always remind the DM of Distance and Distraction modifiers to Spot and Listen Checks. They really add up -especially that -5 for "distracted." In the last game I ran as a DM, I factored those in a lot more carefully than I had before, and that house full-of-rogues my players were trying to infiltrate were a lot harder to handle as a result, to be sure...just remember it works both ways...
Fleece
Ranged weapons are really the way to go here. The rogue Hides, then waits until something resembling a pin cushion walks within 30 feet. They attack with a crossbow or shortbow or thrown dagger or whatever. Again, no Hide check needed, guaranteed ambush (insofar as no risky movement is involved).Actually, Saern -that isn't true. When someone is hiding, potential observers ALWAYS receive opposed spot checks -and free (reactive) ones at that! It doesn't matter if the hiding character moves or not.
A character's best defense is to always remind the DM of Distance and Distraction modifiers to Spot and Listen Checks. They really add up -especially that -5 for "distracted." In the last game I ran as a DM, I factored those in a lot more carefully than I had before, and that house full-of-rogues my players were trying to infiltrate were a lot harder to handle as a result, to be sure...just remember it works both ways...
Fleece
I'm aware of that. What I meant was that the rogue doesn't have to risk making additional Hide and Move Silently checks by moving out from his hiding spot to attack. He can simply attack targets up to 30 feet away from where he is at, knocking the required checks down to one Hide, and no Move Silently at all.
I'm aware of that. What I meant was that the rogue doesn't have to risk making additional Hide and Move Silently checks by moving out from his hiding spot to attack. He can simply attack targets up to 30 feet away from where he is at, knocking the required checks down to one Hide, and no Move Silently at all.
Ah! Gotcha! I meant to throw a disclaimer in there but forgot in the haste of posting! I knew you knew your stuff!!
Fleece