I must admit that upon looking over the numerous 4e threads here, I'm surprised by the vitriol people feel about the whole process. Having just looked over Races and Classes, I can't say I find many of the changes to be bad - in fact, just the opposite. They seemed to have tackled many of the things that slow down play and enjoyment. I look forward to the game.
But that's just my opinion and others are welcome to hold their own. But why be hateful? I understand the anger over losing the magazines. I even understand why people don't like the way people at WotC are handling their marketing. So they are lousy at marketing... But why the attacks?
If I end up not liking 4e (but you know, none of us have actually seen it), then I'll play 3.5. I've got plenty of supplements, adventures, and enhancements to last me a lifetime. But if it's a better game, why not play it?
Change is inevitable - except from a vending machine. ~Robert C. Gallagher
First let me preface by say that my opinions are just that, and are my own.
Now then, the quote about change is the most poignant and I feel most accurate statement indicating the "why" behind the vehemence of posters who dislike 4e (despite having so little information to go off of at this time). At the root of almost every complaint is some change in one way or another, and as we all know the majority dislikes change.
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I think that in its simplest form, people in general want support for whatever they do/have/play/whatever. If they like 3.5, they will no longer be getting support for what they like.
For me it is kind of like digital tv. I have had my tv now for a good 12 years. It still works great. Even so, I have been told that I will have to upgrade to a new digital tv because my tv will no longer be supported by the airwaves. Was there anything wrong with my old tv? No. Will the new one be "better"? Most likely, but so what?
In the case of 4e, not only are people not going to be getting "support" for their 3.X material, with their current marketing, it appears to be replaced with an inferior product.
At least that is how I see it.
Yeah, I'm not tryin to hate, WotC has been my friend in the past, they've done a lot of really cool stuff, but the last couple actions have been pretty big blows to my beloved hobby.
The magazines were a pretty big deal, they were the best gaming magazines, hands down. And I miss them. It's like when Fox cancels a gret show [preemptively /threadjack].
The marketing has sucked, yeah, but that doesn't necessarily mean the game will suck. Heck, I'll play any fun game.
I think most of the discontent, for me at least, stems from the increasing amounts of $ that WotC is charging just to play the base game. In 3.5 you only needed three books and then you could branch out if you wanted to, but 3.5 had lots and lots of options. The way that 4e is being described is 3 new books every year with more base classes and races (many that should be included in the initial book).
I'm just tired of spending so much money on things that I feel I've already bought. Believe me, I was NOT initially happy with 3.5. I don't think it ever should have existed. I think if there had been no changes since 2001 and now WotC decided to come out with 4e right now, after all that time, I might be a little more forgiving.
But as to your original subject, if it's a fun game, it's a fun game. It doesn't matter if it's marketed poorly, I'll play it.
I think that in its simplest form, people in general want support for whatever they do/have/play/whatever. If they like 3.5, they will no longer be getting support for what they like.
For me it is kind of like digital tv. I have had my tv now for a good 12 years. It still works great. Even so, I have been told that I will have to upgrade to a new digital tv because my tv will no longer be supported by the airwaves. Was there anything wrong with my old tv? No. Will the new one be "better"? Most likely, but so what?
In the case of 4e, not only are people not going to be getting "support" for their 3.X material, with their current marketing, it appears to be replaced with an inferior product.
At least that is how I see it.
Great analogy! Smart way of putting it.
I agree with the general sentiment that "it sucks"TM when something you own becomes outdated and is no longer supported. However, I have to accept that as the "nature of the beast" when it comes to companies who are in business. I have to face the reality that despite the fact that there are people in this world making money doing what they love they are still in the business of making money.
A company cannot realistically stay in business long (or successfully) if they continue to support old product. (I'm sure someone can cite some examples of companies that have done that, but those are exceptions, not the norm.)
The company I work for is a cell phone company and we rotate product every 6 months. We continually get complaints that we no longer support models X,Y, & Z. Sadly though if we did, our warehouse would be chocked full of product that would move very very slowly for a small cross-section of our customer base and we simply don't have the room or the manpower to support that kind of effort. Hopefully that is a good analogy too.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Honestly, I don't hate 4E. I do hate roughly 2/3 of the changes I've seen so far. Maybe I'm in the minority, but it doesn't feel like it. Lots of the fluff changes seem to be made "just to do something different", which doesn't seem like a good reason to me personally for the core default setting and rules. Sounds like they're sneaking in a new campaign world and forcing their existing ones to conform to it.
As for the rules, there's lots I like (weapons working differently from each other (i.e. spears vs. axes, having different options), a promised fix to multi-classing spellcasters, but there's lots I don't like (removing half of the kinds of spells a wizard can cast, not including stuff that I think should be core (classes, races, monsters, entire schools of spells, take your pick) in the original 3 core books, removal of most of the tactics of spellcasting by going way too far away from vancian spellcasting, and stuff like that.
I'm not thrilled about how they handled the magazines, but I'm keeping my thoughts there separate from my thoughts on 4E. I'm also not a fan of the D&D insider online content being bundled - you have to subscribe to all or nothing, so you're paying for the magazines whether you want them or not, just to get the character generator.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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The company I work for is a cell phone company and we rotate product every 6 months. We continually get complaints that we no longer support models X,Y, & Z. Sadly though if we did, our warehouse would be chocked full of product that would move very very slowly for a small cross-section of our customer base and we simply don't have the room or the manpower to support that kind of effort. Hopefully that is a good analogy too.
I'm not saying you should support 10 year old cell phones, but my big pet peeve with cell phones is being forced to pay for features I don't want. I don't want a cell that accepts text messages, since I don't like them, and I don't like having to pay for them when I do get them. But, there's no phones that simply won't accept them in the first place.
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I think I've said before that my feelings are irrational. Knowing that doesn't change how I feel though.
Look at how Paizo does everything from producing great material to interacting with their customers...now compare it WotC.
WotC is doing a lot of things that I disagree with and they are going about it all wrong. I feel alienated and disenfranchised. Then again, I am not their target demographic.
I try to curb my outbursts, but sometimes I can't help it. I try not to attack individuals.
So I can't answer why as elegantly as others. But I share a lot of sentiment with a lot of folks around here.
I am going to jump in here before the many haters here do :) Surely you have enough 3.5 books and adventures to last MANY campaigns. So if you still like it still play it. Most new stuff will could be converted (or will have already appeared as 3.5).
I certainly do not understand the hate either. Many threads ending with general snide and often abussive comments that have nothing to do with the post topic is very irritating. Many are unfounded.
Hard to judge something until you see the final product. I wonder how much hate there would have been for Star Wars Saga if they had released as amny previews etc. From most accounts it appears to be a far superior game.
I really cannot stand the cost thing. You get more bang from your buck from any RPG book than practically any other form of entertainment. People should not be complaining about that (especially those in the U.S).
You do NOT need every book to play the game. 3.5 had many extra classes, races etc - you could play without them and same with 4e. Yes, some races and classes will not be in the PHB1, but not everything can be and I am glad they have chosen to branch out a little and not just repeat what has been done before. (Remember even some things people see as standard, weren't necessarily so in all editions). Just b/c it was in the game from a previous supplement does not mean it is the best thing for PHB1.
However - back to you IP. I too would like to know the real reasons behind the HATE. I mean a lot of it here simply seems to be 'stickin it to the man', attack the 'faceless big guys' and show your support for Paizo by attacking the company that took their mags away :(
All things to worry about - but why hate the game?
So much to say...
But I'll be brief. My prime issue with 4E is that it's too soon.
The analogy I'll use is a computer game.
It's like buying Neverwinter Nights and starting to play, but a short time later (when you're about, say, half-way through the game), Neverwinter Nights 2 comes out. Ok, it's something I may want to play one day, but I'm really enjoying Neverwinter Nights and I want to finish it before I play anything else. And look! Lots of 3rd party people have made cool modules for Neverwinter Nights 1, and these don't yet exist for NWN2. So, I'll just keep playing NWN1 until I'm tired of it.
To switch back to 3E/4E, there are so many aspects to 3.5 I still want to try (not to mention the wonderful 3rd party stuff for 3.5), that I'm nowhere near ready to invest in another game.
WotC is releasing this edition too early, IMO. My opinion is that the timing of this release (and the changes being made) is motivated by the bottom line rather than what would be good for the players of the game.
Dithering Fool wrote: WotC is doing a lot of things that I disagree with and they are going about it all wrong. I feel alienated and disenfranchised. Then again, I am not their target demographic.
So what exactly? Why are you not the target audience when Paizo products are? What exactly are WotC doing differently? What is it about 4E, THE GAME, that people are so peeved about?
I too would like to see some specific answers.
So many things still to use for 3.5?
Well if you like them enough use them in 4E. IDEAS can still be used and I am betting the stats are a whole lot easier to do. MANY of my adventures for 3.5 were from 1E and 2E. It really is little effort to convert.
And to answer someone else in the thread - I do not agree with you 'change for change sake' analogy. I see WotC finally actually coming up with reasons and niches for the races. It is starting to sound like a place where each race and creature truly has a place, rather than being a 'cool' set of stats.
I am liking the back story. How many people used much of the creatures' backstories in 3.5 anyway?
Still very few specific answers on 4e, the game ??????
I'm not saying you should support 10 year old cell phones, but my big pet peeve with cell phones is being forced to pay for features I don't want. I don't want a cell that accepts text messages, since I don't like them, and I don't like having to pay for them when I do get them. But, there's no phones that simply won't accept them in the first place.
There are federal regulations requiring all phones to be SMS & MMS compliant. The feature of your phone being able to receive those messages is free, being able to send messages of your own is something you have to pay for.
But I understand your point that you don't like paying for things that you neither want or need. But eventually your cell phone breaks and you have to by a new one and your books wear out and have to buy new ones. Some folks buckle at having to buy new things, others relish in it.
Personally I want my phone and my RPG "fully loaded." :)
Personally I want my phone and my RPG "fully loaded." :)
Actually I must admit that statement is not 100% true. In reality, I like my cell phone to be pretty simple in function and basic in use. Likewise, I want my RPG to be elegant and powerful. This is not the same as simple though, far from it I enjoy a complex set of rules but one that "makes sense" and can fade seemingly into the background when needed. This is part science of RPG design and part art of the DM (which is a skill that takes years to master). I realize that this vision of a system is like some fabled Xanadu that can realistically never be attained, but like the Taoist ideal of the one true "Way" we are on a journey to obtain this thing and in journeying we "find" it.
What I mean is that an RPG is not a static thing (or in my opinion it should not be) it is a constantly evolving process. When the old system's holes have been poked through and a DM has a binder full of house rules to handle situations that weren't covered in the books (as I do) and a list of things that he/she would change, then it's time to make a revision OR start almost completely from scratch building upon previous works in a natural fashion. Everything is derivative as we know and few things can be truly revolutionary. But it is that search, that lofty goal for the "perfect system" that drives me (us?) ever-onward. Will we ever grasp it? No. Will we ever stop looking? Also, no.
When is the right time to make a new edition? Answer: When it is.
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Still very few specific answers on 4e, the game ??????
Let me rephrase what I asked -- What exactly are you looking for? You seem to be looking for a rational and logical reason for peoples' emotions. Good luck with that.
On the other hand, I haven't seen very many (any?) "specific answers" as to why 4e is "teh roxxors" either.
Allow me to give you as "specific" an answer as may be possible...
As a general rule, people are resistant (at best) to change -- especially when it is forced on them.
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Still very few specific answers on 4e, the game ??????
For me:
1) No more saving throws as we know them
2) No more gnomes
3) Tieflings as a STANDARD PC race
4) Telling us that when we buy the books, that if we want the extra stuff they offer online we have to pay for it...
5) Telling us that less rolling is involved, but when looking at the "playtest" articles it is in fact the same number or even more rolls involved
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I too would like to see some specific answers.
Why? I wont change your mind and I don't feel like I need to defend my gut feeling.
Dithering Fool wrote: WotC is doing a lot of things that I disagree with and they are going about it all wrong. I feel alienated and disenfranchised. Then again, I am not their target demographic.
So what exactly? Why are you not the target audience when Paizo products are? What exactly are WotC doing differently? What is it about 4E, THE GAME, that people are so peeved about?
Fine.
I am a 35+ year old, highly educated, rather successful, family man that has been playing the game since the red box (although I skipped most of 2e). Absolutely nothing, and I mean not one single thing, has encouraged me to be interested in 4e. Old and set in my ways? Maybe.
Let's just focus on the Tiefling/Gnome trade. Why? I understand Gnomes weren't in the Red Box - I'm not a purest. But just because a bunch of designers decide gnomes suck under the New Regime doesn't mean all the people who love to play gnomes are going to suddenly say "You're right, what was I thinking?" Same with tieflings. Just because this new warlock (which I don't like) fits best with these little wanna-be fiends, doesn't mean all of a sudden everyone wants horns and tails on their PCs.
So why do it? Did some survey say everyone loves tieflings over gnomes? No one I know was asked. Did some marketing genius say "the Christian thing has finally died down enough to re-introduce the world to satanism!" (sarcasm). If you can't have both, why choose to change it and then flaunt it?
So, you see, specifics don't tell you anything except the personal preference of individuals.
Finally, don't forget, at least with everyone I know, "hating" 4e is about 50% the game changes and 50% the way WotC is handling it. I bet if Paizo still ran Dragon/Dungeon and 4e was being promoted by them I would be on board...
I am going to jump in here before the many haters here do :) Surely you have enough 3.5 books and adventures to last MANY campaigns. So if you still like it still play it. Most new stuff will could be converted (or will have already appeared as 3.5).
That's the plan.
When Paizo goes 4e I'll buy their stuff, but I doubt I'll play it...maybe 5e will be better?
When Paizo goes 4e I'll buy their stuff, but I doubt I'll play it...maybe 5e will be better?
Good news! You'll only need to wait 5 years. :O
But really how much more support could 3E really need? There is no shortage of supplements and adventures out there. In fact I think there are probably far too many. The last thing I want to see is several more years of 3.5 supplements. Each one seems to add a whole new slew of wrinkles and balance issues to the game.
I think that in its simplest form, people in general want support for whatever they do/have/play/whatever. If they like 3.5, they will no longer be getting support for what they like.
For me it is kind of like digital tv. I have had my tv now for a good 12 years. It still works great. Even so, I have been told that I will have to upgrade to a new digital tv because my tv will no longer be supported by the airwaves. Was there anything wrong with my old tv? No. Will the new one be "better"? Most likely, but so what?
In the case of 4e, not only are people not going to be getting "support" for their 3.X material, with their current marketing, it appears to be replaced with an inferior product.
At least that is how I see it.
Okay, I told myself I wouldn't rebutt, but I have to, cause some of the reactions don't even seem like they give the game a chance.
All we are saying is give 4e a chance...
1) No more saving throws as we know them
Not sure why this is bad. Its a difference between whether the PCs role or the DM roles. And if you like the old way, you can probably do it that way. We could all be using AC with a die by adding the modifier to a role rather than 10, if that's what we wanted.
2) No more gnomes
3) Tieflings as a STANDARD PC race
At first I wondered about these too, but after reading Races & Classes, it doesn't bother me as much. But I understand your feelings on this.
4) Telling us that when we buy the books, that if we want the extra stuff they offer online we have to pay for it...
The online stuff is another service. If we want it, we pay for it. If we don't, we don't.
5) Telling us that less rolling is involved, but when looking at the "playtest" articles it is in fact the same number or even more rolls involved
The playtest articles are so sketchy, it's hard to know how a 4e game plays and the amount of rolls required.
I DO hate the general direction they've taken the game in - more like a video game than a table-top RPG.
But do you know this for sure? I haven't played 4e, which WotC assures can be played without any of the digital support, so I don't know this for sure. Can you tell me what plays more like a video game (over say, 3e which feels very much like chess at times)?
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It really is little effort to convert.
Therein lies one of my big pet peeves, so far they have repeatedly stated (bragged?) that conversions from earlier editions to 4E will not be possible.
Have a great adventure involving a necromancer? Now it will have to be something else until the Necromancer core class emerges.
Have a killer Monster you wanted to pit against PC's, may have to wait until MMVI before you get "official" stats.
What about a beloved character you're not quite ready to retire just yet? Sorry, you have to terminate as he won't translate to 4E.
Stick with 3.x until you're done? Ok, I can do that.
But then why convert later? I would have to "house rule" so much I might as well just make my own edition.
I respect pro-4E opinions, and I have no hate for WOTC or 4E. But just as pro-4E peoples don't like being insulted, neither do I particularly enjoy being cast as a cave dwelling creature dreaming of a bygone era.
In a nutshell, hate is stupid, especially over a game. Intellectual differences are acceptable.
Have fun!
I don't hate it. In fact I'm actually kind of thankful for it because I'm not going to play it. You know how much money I will save?
Paizo should be greatful to them though as my D&D budget is almost 100% theirs now.
Still very few specific answers on 4e, the game ??????
The impression I get is that the crew at WotC have gone out of their way to make 4th "their own".
From 1st to 2nd and 3rd edition, the PHB, MM and DMG were fairly generic and built upon the game's history.
2nd edition, in particular, was unpopular with many because it removed elements that appeared in the 1st edition "core books" in order to appease those who felt that D&D was too risque and a "bad influence" on children and impressionable teens.
When 3rd edition came around the core books "fixed" the changes made in 2nd edition in terms of fluff (magic item, spell, class and racial descriptions in particular) and substance (the core books allowed you to create just about any race/class combination from earlier editions and allowed for greater variety in character creation/development).
3rd edition and 3.5 have some mechanical issues (too many supplements mucking up the works, high level play headaches, multiclassing limitations that are patched by PrCs) but the game is deeply rooted in what came before and the writers seemed to respect that those who came to the table to play D&D did so because they wanted to play D&D and not some other fantasy RPG.
4th edition, for whatever reason, wants to redefine the "core concepts" of D&D and, in nearly every instance, I find myself at odds with the decisions being made. Changing the mechanics to facilitate play and improve the game is a laudable goal... but I just can't get behind what I've been reading over on EN World and on the WotC site.
The only changes that I've read and liked involve:
1] Less reliance on magic items
2] Consolidation of some skills (though they went too far)
3] Removal of PrCs and improved multiclassing rules.
Everything else just leaves me scratching my head in disbelief and muted anger.
I agree with Forgottenprince and DitheringFool, as well as have some issues of my own (anime combat, new core books every year, subscription to DI to be included in everything,...), but one of the most galling things, and it is very much tied to the demise of the magazines, is WOTC's attitude about everything. You can find numerous quotes from various designers that boil down to: "the game you're playing now (3.5) is SOOOOOO broken, 4E will fix all of that and how lucky you are to have us come in to repair it".
Sorry, I don't buy that premise. No hate here, but zero desire to try the new game.
I won't spend any more money with Wizards. I won't be participating in the DI because it's more fun to play in person anyway and I really do resent the passing of magazines I had been reading for 27 years. Not to mention buying a product and then having to pay to download the extra content?
I think 3.5 is perfectly fine and I have been scarfing up enough 3.5 material to last me a long time.
P.S. I'm in the same demographic as DitheringFool. Been playing since January 1980, blue box.
"Hate" is too strong a word in my case. There are too many more important things in the world using up all my "hate" energy.
I don't dislike change. I dislike unnecessary, gratuitous change. I started playing in 1978 with 1st edition. When 2e came out I was glad, because there were lots of things about 1e that needed fixing. When 3e came out I was glad again, because there were lots of things about 2e that needed fixing.
But 4e is coming out solely for the sake of money. It's a reboot when only a tweak is needed. I know WotC has to make money, but that's not my problem. The game, for me, is not motivated by WotC's revenue targets.
And the rules changes I've seen have, by and large, been bad ones IMO. In most cases, change for the sake of change. Most of it seems aimed at dumbing down (oops, I mean "streamlining") and munchkinizing the rules to appeal to the younger, post-literate MMORPG generation.
Probably worst of all...I don't like being told that the game I've played for 30 years has sucked all this time...especially hearing that from the same company that has received money in the five figures from me over the past 30 years.
Making the game deliberately incompatible with 3e so we can't easily convert if we choose. Deliberately withholding major and iconic aspects of the game from the core rulebooks so you have to buy 3 or 4 books to get the info that used to be contained in 1.
4e is just not a game system I'm interested in playing, and WotC is no longer a company I'm interested in supporting. This may be me finally entering the "old fart" period of my life, but I guess it happens to just about everybody.
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I am a 35+ year old, highly educated, rather successful, family man that has been playing the game since the red box (although I skipped most of 2e). Absolutely nothing, and I mean not one single thing, has encouraged me to be interested in 4e. Old and set in my ways? Maybe.
Dude.
I just turned 40 and I am SO looking forward to 4E. I don't think its about age.
I admit, I am a 4E hater. Here's my analogy. Say you're an artist. A painter. You paint all your life with paint from this one company. They offer a wide array of paints and you like them alot. Sometimes you buy someone else's paints but sometimes there's problems with those other guy's paints, they don't always colormatch quite right. Mostly though you stick to your one company simply because they can put out the volume you need. Then you find out that one day the company decides to completely eliminate the line of paints you always buy because they are putting out a whole new line of paints. These new paints don't work right at all with your existing picture. Infact you need an entirely different kind of canvis just to get them to dry properly. These new paints don't mix at all with any of your old paints.
You don't mind switching over to these new paints, despite the initial hiccup, but then that company that you have been buying paint off of for all those years puts out a marketting campaign about how you were stupid for using their old paints. They insult you, say your artwork is just plain inferior, that you will be so much happier using their new line of paints. Oh, and then they tell you that they've been working on this new line of paints ever since the last line of paints came out. Oh, did I mention that the price went up on the paints?
There's alot more to it that I skipped over. Does this help?
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I've come to despise WotC in general. 4E doesn't matter to me.
Sure 4E will be a solid system: have some better things and worse things for my personal taste. I don't care. The 3.5 DMG showed me beyond a doubt that WotC was deevolving the game and that I'd become less and less interested in their products. Back then it was no big deal; I just refused to ever buy the 3.5 DMG. Yeah, I got the 3.5 PHB & MM but NEVER that idiot book. I've been DMing just fine w/out it.
Now it's different. It's not just one core book that I disagree with and don't want. It's their whole line of bs. Like Dithering Fool and Moff, I'm an old schooler who plays a deeper game and wants to support a quality company. It won't matter if 4E turns out to be great -- WotC makes it; I won't buy it, Period.
"Give the game a chance," you say? Are you out of your mind? They killed our dog, etc., etc., and you want me to give them more money?!
-W. E. Ray
Plus, consider this:
3 core books (not once, but every year) +
monthly DI subscription +
one hardcover a month (WOTC's current 3.5 publishing plan) +
extra for the additional content for those books +
all new miniatures (since the old ones will be mostly incompatible) +
all the other non-WOTC materials you buy...
Tell me how WOTC expects anyone to keep up?
Hate? No. Hate's a strong word with strong feelings tied to it. I rag on it, a lot, but honestly, if they gave me more than a wink and an insult, I'd be a bit more open minded. I feel like I'm being patted on the head and told "Go sit over there, adults are talking. We know what's best".
Teifling's a core race? Neat. I've always thought tieflings and aasimars should be core and playable from level 1. Get rid of half-orcs, gnomes, druids, barbarians, and bards? No thank you. I have more than enough 3.5 material to last until God, Buddha, or C'thulhu comes down and says "Can I play a half-orc paladin?", and I think I'll run my games using that system for the time being.
All that said, I will give 4E a try, maybe even a second one too. My fiance is intrigued at the "less math, more fun" angle, so she really wants to try running a campaign when it comes out. Also, her and I plan on opening a game-store in a few years, and I'd like to be up on what the makers of the World's Favorite RPG are doing, good or bad.
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Let me switch the question back on those who really look forward to 4E.
- Heck yeah, 3E is broken (game balance issues, magic & equip issues, stat prep time issues, combat length issues).
- Sure, Vancian magic is dumb.
- Yes a business has to grow and make money.
And I can see that some gaming groups will enjoy a more "video game" style campaign fluff and PC abilities growth.
But why will you give your money to a company that lies to you, insults your intelligence with their PR statements, and sets a precident whereupon they don't listen to what their customers say? Do you not care? Do you not think that other companies act differently
If you don't have a personal problem with internet piracy and you like the idea of 4E then steal it off the web when it comes out, fine -- but support WotC?!
Why?
-W. E. Ray
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Just one note on all the HATE here at Paizo. I HATE to tell you but there is just as much hate on Wizards boards or ENWorld. However you have to be damned quick to catch those threads because they get vaporized fairly quickly. I could show you some proof but it seems to have been eaten by the positive press only monster. I am not saying they delete every post that gives 4E a bad turn but a LOT of HATE type posts seem to vanish into the ether.
Personally however to answer the op, I don't hate 4E. I do not like some of what I am reading so far but that is a moot point for now. No matter how much I despise most of what I read I will wait for the core books to come out and read a bit of them first. My decision at that point will be what I end up doing.
When 3E came out I didn't really like a lot of the changes so I held off until 3.5. I am ok with the system now (that it is dying) but I still house rule a lot of things.
My stance for now is still just wait and see. I hope that I am just not understanding the BIG picture that all the snipets show us.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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But why will you give your money to a company that lies to you, insults your intelligence with their PR statements, and sets a precident whereupon they don't listen to what their customers say? Do you not care? Do you not think that other companies act differentlyIf you don't have a personal problem with internet piracy and you like the idea of 4E then steal it off the web when it comes out, fine -- but support WotC?!
Because as large as my ego is, WotC isn't actually a person, I don't actually have a personal relationship with such non-existent person, and I don't somehow believe that such non-existent person owes me anything. It's not as if someone is over at WotC saying "oh man, I hate that Sebastian so much, I'm going to write really dumb blog post that will irritate him in the hopes that he will go away."
Plus, the fact that I don't like their PR doesn't mean that it's not the most effective tool for selling their product. For all I know, it's working like gangbusters for those poor strawmen kids playing MMORPGs.
I'm not going to quit watching the Simpsons because Fox cancelled Firefly. I'm not going to pass on the Dark Knight because Batman and Robin was horrible. And, I'm not going to miss out on a better game because I'm being overly sensitive about the way WotC is announcing the changes being made.
Someone on the WotC boards posted that WotC could put $100 dollar bills in their products and people would complain about how they were folded. I'm going to buy their products because I like their products. It'd be nice if they marketed them in a style I found appealing, but, just as I like to think that I don't buy products because commercials make them look sexy, I'm also not going to not buy products because the marketing blows.
"Finally, don't forget, at least with everyone I know, "hating" 4e is about 50% the game changes and 50% the way WotC is handling it. I bet if Paizo still ran Dragon/Dungeon and 4e was being promoted by them I would be on board..." - DitheringFool
I agree with that statement.