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Hey all!
With all the recent discussion about paladins, I was seriously thinking about playing on in our local 3.5 game. Then I saw they were rubbish. 8 dead levels, MAD, powers that are barely useful and so few spells that you can't really do anything with them. I thought it was time for a makeover for this really great character concept with a badly designed class.
Here's my take as inspired heavily by some of the newer mechanics we've seen in PHB2 (especially dragon shaman, which is IMO, a very well thought out class). Much is untouched from the SRD and I haven't finished work on the auras yet, but I figure 8-10 are enough. Please feel free to make suggestions, comment and provide constructive criticism:
Paladin
Alignment: Lawful good.
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills:
The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Table: The Paladin
Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Class Ability Auras Known
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite -
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Divine Grace, Lay on Hands -
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Divine Health, Holy Conviction -
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Turn Undead, Holy Aura +1 1
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Improved Smite 1
6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Companion, Lay on Hands (Improved) 1
7 +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 2
8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Holy Aura +2 2
9 +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Lay on Hands (Greater) 2
10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Greater Smite 3
11 +11/+6/+5 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 3
12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Holy Aura +3 3
13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Lay on Hands (Superior) 4
14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Holy Conviction (Share With Allies) 4
15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 4
16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Superior Smite, Holy Aura +4 5
17 +17/+12/+7/+1 +10 +5 +5 - 5
18 +18/+12/+7/+2 +11 +6 +6 Champion of Good 5
19 +19/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat 6
20 +20/+14/+9/+4 +12 +6 +6 Awesome Smite, Holy Aura +5 6
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the paladin.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).
Aura of Good (Ex)
The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.
Detect Evil (Sp)
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
Smite (Su)
A paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her paladin level attack and damage rolls. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, then Smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up. A paladin may Smite 1 + Cha bonus (if any) times per day.
At 5th level, a paladin’s smite attack count as a good-aligned magic weapon for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction or for harming incorporeal creatures. A paladin may also sacrifice 5 points of damage to cause an evil foe hit by her smite to become Sickened for 1d4 rounds if they fail a Will save. A 10th level paladin’s smite counts as silver or cold iron for overcoming damage reduction and may give up 10 points of damage to cause an evil creature to be Nauseated for 1d4 rounds if they fail a Will save (see above). At 15th level, the paladin may give up 15 points of damage to Stun an evil foe for 1d4 rounds, and at 20th level the paladin may automatically slay a foe if it fails a Will save. The DC to save against these effects is 10 + half paladin level + Cha modifier. These conditions may be applied to creatures that area not normally affected by these effects.
Divine Grace (Su)
At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
Lay on Hands (Su)
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. She may also sacrifice 5 points of healing to remove 1 point of ability damage or remove the Dazed, Fatigued or Sickened condition from one individual. Using lay on hands is a standard action.
At higher levels, the Paladin may use Lay on Hands to have additional effects. At 6th level, a paladin may sacrifice 10 points of healing to remove the Exhausted, Nauseated, Poisoned or Stunned condition. At 9th level, she may sacrifice 20 points of healing to remove a negative level or Blinded, Deafened, Diseased or Paralyzed conditions. At 13th level, she may spend 40 points to restore 1 point of ability or level drain or remove a Curse, Domination or Geas effect.
Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.
Holy Conviction (Su)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). At 14th level, the paladin may share this ability with all allies within 30’ as a swift action.
Divine Health (Ex)
At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Turn Undead (Su)
When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.
Holy Aura (Su)
Starting at 4th level, a paladin can begin to project the favour of their in the form of a magical aura (see Holy Auras sidebar). These auras can protect her companions or demoralize evil foes.
Projecting an aura is a swift action, and a paladin can only project one aura at a time. An aura remains in effect until the she uses a free action to dismiss it or project a new one in its place. It may be active continuously, and may be in effect even before an encounter begins. Auras affect all allies (including the paladin) within a 30’ radius with line of effect. It is automatically dismissed if you become unconscious or dead, but remains active if you are otherwise incapacitated and unable to act (eg. Paralyzed),
The bonus granted by the aura is +1, and increases by +1 every 4 levels (8th, 12th, 16th, 20th). The paladin may only learn a limited number of auras and cannot change them once they are selected.
Companion (Ex)
At 5th level, a paladin attracts a special follower. They may choose from a Mortal or Celestial Companion. All companions are Lawful Good. Calling a Companion takes 24 hours of uninterrupted prayer and meditation.
A Mortal Companion is a fighter of the paladin’s race. They begin play 2 levels lower than the paladin and progress as a regular NPC Cohort (see the Leadership feat). Celestial Companions are extraplanar magical beasts (celestial template) or outsiders that are sympathetic to the Paladin’s cause. The ECL of a celestial Companion is 2 below that of the paladin.
If a Companion dies, the paladin may attract a new one immediately. If the paladin ceases to be Lawful Good or looses her class abilities, the Companion departs and a new one must be called if her status is restored. A paladin may still select Leadership as a feat, but the Companion counts as a familiar, for the purposes of determining the other cohort’s level.
Bonus Feat:
At 7th, 11th and 14th levels, a paladin may select a bonus feat from the following list. They must still meet the feat’s perquisites in order to select it: any divine feat, Cleave, Extra Smiting, Extra Turning, Great Cleave, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Skill Focus (Ride), Spirited Charge, and Trample.
Champion of Good:
By 18th level, a paladin has become so much a beacon of good, that her very presence affects those around her. All creatures of lower level that can see the paladin are affected as if under the effects of the prayer spell. Good creatures are counted as allies, while evil ones are counted as foes.
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin auras and abilities (including their Companion, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies or bonus feats). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.
First off, if you use splat books I don't think paladin's are all that underpowered (specifically complete warrior, complete divine, complete champion). I especially like the new paladin spells found in the Spell Compendium and Complete Champion..combined with the Battle Blessing feat from Complete Champion (which lets you cast paladin spells as a swift action), paladins can hold their own.
Comments on your paladin remake:
Lay on hands changes: Excellent
Smite Changes: I like the changes, but maybe a bit powerful
Holy Conviction: It's ok, but what's the duration once activated?
Bonus feats: cool
Holy Auras: I'm currently playing in a game with a dragon shaman and trying to remember to add in the bonuses in different situations is a pain in the rear. It may be a good idea, but in play I really don't like auras. Even without the auras, your version of the paladin seems pretty balanced. Instead maybe give an extra smite at these levels? Or add an ability to spend a turn attempt to cure poison or remove energy drained levels? One last suggestion, add an ability to throw up 'death ward' once a day with a short duration (which could be upgraded to also covers allies at higher levels)? Or, if you really like the auras, ignore me and go with them anyway :)
Edit: one more possible ability to replace auras is to give paladins access to one of their gods domain abilities..maybe upgrade this at a higher level to allow the extra spell slot and preparing of domain spells too.
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Thanks for the early feedback Eric! I was trying to make a base class that doesn't need splatbooks or serve as a 6 level class before you PrC into something better. I really like the aura, since it expands on the original Aura of Courage and plays up their inspirational presence on the battlefield, so I'm keeping it. Sorry! ;)
With Smite, I was trying to put them on par roughly with a spell effect of a similar level. I may make it a Fort save though, since the effects are physical.
Holy Conviction replaces Aura of Courage. It is always active as long as your concious.
The Lay on Hands covers the poisoned and energy drained conditions, but I like some sort of death ward effect. Maybe an aura that gives a save against them? Not as effective as the spell, but it's an aura, so it's shouldn't be.
Do you think that turn undead is even nescessary for this rebuilt class? I'm leaning towards no. Only problem is that a bunch of feats in existing books become unusable. Maybe they can be grandfathered in by using up smite attempts instead of turn attempts?
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I think the smite ability is fine, even if a little overpowered. A death attack against evil creatures at 20th level is an excellent capstone, something a lot of classes are missing. Spellcasters get save or die, why shouldn't the fighters get one for straight-classing too?
What do you suggest I do to make it a little more balanced? I'm currently using the same mechanic as the Lay on Hands. If I make it a Fort save, do you think this will even it out a bit?
PS Yes, I wanted a capstone for the paladin to make it worth while taking the full class. At Level 20, this works out to DC 30, assuming a Cha of 30. There are a lot of baddies that can make that save when you're dealing with CR 20+ monsters.
I think I need to see the auras listed out to determine if your paladin is balanced or not. Like I mentioned before, even without the auras your version looks pretty good to me.
Turn Undead: I don't think your version needs it, but is it really a paladin without turn undead? Next you'll be suggesting gnomes shouldn't be PCs or succubus shouldn't be demons!
Lay on Hands: I missed the poison and level draining thing. Looks good.
Holy Conviction: I was refering to the 'share this ability with all allies' when I asked about the duration.
Death Ward: As an aura, it should give a second save to the effect or a bonus to the original save.
Smite: I'm still not too sure about the power of this ability. Stunned 1d4 rounds is basically death at the level a paladin can do this, and the next upgrade to the smite IS death.
Bonus Feats: Your table progression for bonus feats doesn't match the ability description. Did you hire wizards to do your editing? :P
This is interesting. I had a thread a few months back dealing with retooling the paladin into a more capable class, and I touched on auras as well (though my idea was inspired by the WoW paladin, rather than the dragon shaman; however, I have thought for a while that the dragon shaman's healing touch or whatever it's called is what Lay on Hands should be).
I like it, but the class may be a little over-powered as written here. I'd make the Aura of Courage one of the paladin's Auras (which, by the way, I don't believe you ever specifically listed what they do). I think it's all fine and dandy by itself, but if you start throwing in those Divine Feats, the previously worthless turning becomes a battery of Divine Mights, Divine Shields, and others. I think you could remedy this by limiting down their list of bonus feats somewhat. I think just the Mounted Combat and Divine Feats would be enough, really.
About the Companion: I think the idea of the cohort is interesting, and introducing an actual measure for how powerful a paladin's companion can be (ECL - 2) is very nice (since so many paladins seem to want mounts other than the standard warhorse). But I'd keep it to just a special mount, and leave out the Mortal Companion option. That would get too complicated, especially to roleplay, and it's yet another character to keep track of at the table, even moreso than the mount already is. I do like postponing it to 6th level and putting something else in at 5th, however.
Also, regarding Holy Conviction. You state that this bonus can be applied to all allies within 30 feet starting at 14th level as a swift action. But it's active so long as the paladin is conscious. The swift action is redundant, then, unless the paladin can choose to turn this off. Alternately, you may want to make bonuses to saves vs. fear one of the auras a paladin can evoke, rather than letting him grant the entire party immunity.
"Champion of Good" can probably be lost. It's too much like another aura.
As far as the auras themselves, I really, really like this concept. But agian, I didn't see what these do exactly, other than "protect foes and demoralize evil foes." I do also like the idea of having a list of auras the paladin can choose, rather than letting him or her get all of them. This allows for more customization, and more options for the class, without making it too powerful (or each ability too weak) by squeezing them all into a 20-level class and/or making every paladin know all the "tricks."
Anyway, I would scrap the part about the aura's hindering foes. That doesn't strike me as something a paladin would do (I know that's a precarious statement, but it's my opinion nonetheless). I would recommend the auras only affect allies, and provide benefits such as the bonus of the aura on attack rolls, armor class, and/or saving throws. The bonus might need to be named so it doesn't stack with everything and thus become too powerful (i.e., the bonus to AC could be a deflection bonus). Another option might be a bonus to overcoming Spell Resistance, or even a bonus to healing spells (so, if the aura was +4, all healing spells cast within the aura heal 4 more damage; or something like that).
Finally, I like the improvements to the smite. (1 + Charisma bonus) times per day is much better than the overly-stingy allotments given in the PHB. If the paladin wants more, there's always Extra Smite as a feat. Further, allowing it to count as a variety of special materials, similar to a monk's unarmed strike, is a really nice touch. You forgot to continue your progression on giving up damage for a special effect on the last leg of the smite, however; I believe it would be 20 damage, correct? All that being said, I would stick with the paladin's smites simply doing damage, not inflicting special conditions and penalties. Afflicting someone with the wrath of the gods in the form of a nasty curse seems more like the cleric's job to me. It would also serve the bring the class back in line a little bit.
Overall, kudos! I will save a copy of these alterations for further consideration, perhaps even use!
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The auras will be very much like the dragon shaman ones, only paladinny. :) Something like:
Healing -Fast healing 1xaura up to half hit points
Resistance -1xaura sacred bounus to saves
Resiliance -DR 1xaura/Evil (maybe even 2xaura since it only works out to 2 points at level 4 and 10 at level 20)
Positive energy aura - 1xaura damage to undead/round
Peace - 2xaura to diplomacy and heal checks
Awe - 1xaura sacred penalty to foe's saves
Lifekeeping -2xaura sacred bonus save against energy drains
That's a real off-the-cuff list though.
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About the Companion: I think the idea of the cohort is interesting, and introducing an actual measure for how powerful a paladin's companion can be (ECL - 2) is very nice (since so many paladins seem to want mounts other than the standard warhorse).
Again, thanks for the input and positive feedback. It really does help me hammer out the details.
The concept for the Companion is to steer away from the special mount idea. Not every paladin wants a great stupid horse following him into the goblin caves (stairs alone are a nightmare). A mortal would be your doughty squire, and the Celestial could be anything from Roy's Lantern Archon or a Protectar to a Hound Archon (or bigger). It still allows for the celestial charger, only you don't have to have the chart in the character description. Maybe I'd discount the celestial mount to ignore the LA for a "mount type" companion.
The more I think about it, the more I think this paladin doesn't need turning; the original just wasn't that good at it (hence the evolution of those divine feats). He can have an aura that makes them unconfortable and hurt them with lay on hands. That should be enough.
Can you think of a better thing than Champ of Good? I don't want too many dead levels.
[edit] The capstone Smite could be DR/Epic.
I think busting through DR/epic is a better "capstone" smite. I'd go this route.
Also, I'm not sure Champion of Good needs replacing. The class would only have 2 dead levels, even without it, and that's at 17th and 18th level. You get a feat at 18th. 17th is then the only level where the player doesn't really get anything. I think that's acceptable.
Please, do we have to have this conversation again? A 1st level spell-like ability that you get to use at will is pretty good. Smite evil is also handy. At higher levels, the fancy mount special ability must be kind of helpful. Paladins are overpowered, in my opinion, because imagine the hassle a DM gos through with intrigue with a paladin figuring out who's evil. Although the DM could always make things non-black-and-white, the 'problem' that Smite Evil can be wasted on guys that aren't really evil can be easily avoided with an ability that you can use at will that lets you know if it would work.
*Sighs as others stare blankly at him and then go back to hating paladins*
Oh well...
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Please, do we have to have this conversation again?
KC, I appreciate your frustration, but IMO the paladin is not overpowered. At low levels, he's the fighter's poor cousin and at high levels, he's the clerics mildly retarded one. This thread is a discussion of the alternative build, not whether or not it's needed. Thanks for your input though. :)
*Sighs as others stare blankly at him and then go back to hating paladins*
I've noticed something. Most people who think paladins are just fine as per the RAW, or that they're even overpowered, would never be caught dead playing one anyway because of some other gripe about them. Not to pick on Kobold Cleaver, or to start a flame war, but I often wonder whether such people have ever really given the class a fair chance, or if that other gripe has biased their further considerations.
Just musing.
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I like the idea about keeping the harmful effects out of the smite. Just damage and overcoming damage reduction is simpler, and simple is good! How's this sound?:
Smite1 -Magic
Smite2 -Good or Lawful
Smite3 -Cold Iron or Silver
Smite4 -Adamantine (for those shadesteel golems out there!)
Smite5 -Epic
I've dumped turning completely and will just make an aura to weaken undead. No more fear of divine meta magic or other potentially broken mechanics. This also makes the cleric more special since they're the only base class that can turn undead now.
Companion will have a provision for celestial creatures that serve as mounts. They may ignore the +2 LA for the template. This makes it possible to have a celestial charger, but just as easy to have a drinking buddy or guardian angel. It's a simple matter to advance base creatures in DMGenie or Monsterforge, so no special charts required.
The auras are still in the works, but the ones I posted are the general concept. Bonuses will be typed (morale and sacred I think are best). Maybe I can base them off of virtues or something? Input/suggestions on these would be great.
Champion of Light =gone. It is uncesscessary and silly.
You can also steal from here. I posted some things as possible replacements for turning undead and mounts. I don't like extra mounts/animal companions as they make my life as the DM more annoying.
Smite: I like the smite changes to overcomming DR - much better.
Turn Undead: dropping this does help balance what you're boosting in other areas.
Companion: I don't necessarily like companions as it increases the complexity of battles quite a bit by basically adding another character to perform actions each round.
Bonus Feats: Your description of the bonus feats still don't match the table's progression..which one is correct?
*Sighs as others stare blankly at him and then go back to hating paladins*I've noticed something. Most people who think paladins are just fine as per the RAW, or that they're even overpowered, would never be caught dead playing one anyway because of some other gripe about them. Not to pick on Kobold Cleaver, or to start a flame war, but I often wonder whether such people have ever really given the class a fair chance, or if that other gripe has biased their further considerations.
Just musing.
I actually like paladins. You're right, though, there is one thing I don't like about the class.
[insert long rant]Much while later...
Well, that pretty much sums it up!
i really like this but i had a few questions. 1. didnt see an answer to the duration of protectin allies in holy conviction.2. I dont thing the paladins aura should effect him. i just see the aura as being kind of an inspireing magical light and makes him seem more humble if its an ally buff. 3.Companion made more sense after you described it as paige or squire inspired. but can you still "call" the companion as you could with the mount? it seemed helpfull with that stair gripe. 4. are you getting rid of spells altogether or just assuming they stay the same? other wise. mind if i borrow?
i really like this but i had a few questions. 1. didnt see an answer to the duration of protectin allies in holy conviction.2. I dont thing the paladins aura should effect him. i just see the aura as being kind of an inspireing magical light and makes him seem more humble if its an ally buff. 3.Companion made more sense after you described it as paige or squire inspired. but can you still "call" the companion as you could with the mount? it seemed helpfull with that stair gripe. 4. are you getting rid of spells altogether or just assuming they stay the same? other wise. mind if i borrow?
I agree with you on the aura being an ally buff but not affecting the paladin. In fact, I like it enough I'll stop complaining about auras if you make that change!
No, I think it would be a bad idea to not let the paladin's auras effect himself. All thematics aside, think of it from the player's perspective: your cool stuff doesn't affect you. Whatever attack or save bonuses it gives, whatever AC or resistance boosts, you don't get. My response would be something along the lines of "WTF? A bard can boost himself. Cleric and sorcerer/wizard buff spells work on themselves and everyone else. Why is my paladin not able to buff himself?" Not to mention, that doesn't really do much to make the paladin a strong class, so much as it makes the paladin make everyone else strong. I suppose a similar argument could be made about the bard, but that's its core job. The paladin will want/need the boosts to perform its main job (melee combat).
No, I think it would be a bad idea to not let the paladin's auras effect himself. All thematics aside, think of it from the player's perspective: your cool stuff doesn't affect you. Whatever attack or save bonuses it gives, whatever AC or resistance boosts, you don't get. My response would be something along the lines of "WTF? A bard can boost himself. Cleric and sorcerer/wizard buff spells work on themselves and everyone else. Why is my paladin not able to buff himself?" Not to mention, that doesn't really do much to make the paladin a strong class, so much as it makes the paladin make everyone else strong. I suppose a similar argument could be made about the bard, but that's its core job. The paladin will want/need the boosts to perform its main job (melee combat).
Ok, you're right. I thought the idea of the pious and unselfish paladin giving suppport to his allies while suffering un-aura buffed was a cool idea, but I can see how this might be less than fun.
So I'm back to hating auras.
This is really great. Despite myself, I won't go on ranting about the need for a "new" paladin class, I'll just like this one. A lot.
I love the idea of DR/epic... after all, when evil demigods come calling, you want a paladin there to stop him, regardless of your own alignment. This really makes them a valuable party member.
I agree about the "Champion of Good" ability, but I like the auras.
No, I think it would be a bad idea to not let the paladin's auras effect himself. All thematics aside, think of it from the player's perspective: your cool stuff doesn't affect you. Whatever attack or save bonuses it gives, whatever AC or resistance boosts, you don't get. My response would be something along the lines of "WTF? A bard can boost himself. Cleric and sorcerer/wizard buff spells work on themselves and everyone else. Why is my paladin not able to buff himself?" Not to mention, that doesn't really do much to make the paladin a strong class, so much as it makes the paladin make everyone else strong. I suppose a similar argument could be made about the bard, but that's its core job. The paladin will want/need the boosts to perform its main job (melee combat).
i was just trying to offset any idea of it being too powerfull now. and the cleric, sor/wiz spells that effect everyone are later effects. it takes a while to reach the coveted Mass spells. not to mention when you do mass the effect it lessens the effect as well. might make a difference if i had seen the auras effects i guess. as for the bard most of its abilities say "ally" and atleast two of them say it cannot effect the bard. i had read over it lightly recently and that part is what stuck in my mind and why i made the suggestion. but i do see where some wouldnt be so self sacrificing as myself and be turned off by it.
OK, I've compiled the base class with the changes suggested, added auras, dropped the 'sharing aura of courage' and 'champion of good' things (both were good, don't get me wrong, but they worked better as an extension of the auras ability), added a couple of other appropriate auras (liberally pirated from the PHB2) and made it all into a tidy pdf file, if anyone would like. Lacking some kind of hosting ability myself, I'm willing to send it on.
Oh, and Xuttah, I'm not stealing your thunder... you get first-line credits. Good work!
My email address (if anyone needs it) is
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Thanks for compiling it for me BEP! Please post it too, that way everyone can see. I may keep your changes for myself, may not, but I think we are on the same page for the important points.
Thanks again to everyone for you input and suggestions. They really helped make this WIP into a workable class.
X.
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Since I can't edit the original, here's my updated version so far:
Paladin
Alignment: Lawful good.
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills:
The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Table: The Paladin
Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Class Ability Auras Known
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite (Magic) -
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Divine Grace, Lay on Hands -
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Divine Health, Holy Conviction -
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Holy Aura +1 1
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Smite (Lawful or Good) 1
6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Companion, Lay on Hands (Improved) 1
7 +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 2
8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Holy Aura +2 2
9 +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Lay on Hands (Greater) 2
10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Smite (Cold Iron or Silver) 3
11 +11/+6/+5 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 3
12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Holy Aura +3 3
13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Lay on Hands (Superior) 4
14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Holy Conviction (Share With Allies) 4
15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 4
16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Smite (Adamantine), Holy Aura +4 5
17 +17/+12/+7/+1 +10 +5 +5 - 5
18 +18/+12/+7/+2 +11 +6 +6 5
19 +19/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat 6
20 +20/+14/+9/+4 +12 +6 +6 Smite (Epic), Holy Aura +5 6
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the paladin.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).
Aura of Good (Ex)
The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.
Detect Evil (Sp)
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
Smite (Su)
A paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her paladin level attack and damage rolls, and the weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction or harming incorporeal foes. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, then Smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up. A paladin may Smite 1 + Cha bonus (if any) times per day.
At 5th level, a paladin’s smite attack counts as good or lawful aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. A 10th level paladin’s smite counts as silver or cold iron. At 15th level, the paladin’s smite attempt counts as adamantine, and at 20th level the paladin’s smite attempt counts as Epic.
Divine Grace (Su)
At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
Lay on Hands (Su)
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. She may also sacrifice 5 points of healing to remove 1 point of ability damage or remove the Dazed, Fatigued or Sickened condition from one individual. Using lay on hands is a standard action.
At higher levels, the Paladin may use Lay on Hands to have additional effects. At 6th level, a paladin may sacrifice 10 points of healing to remove the Exhausted, Nauseated, Poisoned or Stunned condition. At 9th level, she may sacrifice 20 points of healing to remove a negative level or Blinded, Deafened, Diseased or Paralyzed conditions. At 13th level, she may spend 40 points to restore 1 point of ability or level drain or remove a Curse, Domination or Geas effect.
Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.
Holy Conviction (Su)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). At 14th level, the paladin may share this ability with all allies within 30’ as long as she his alive and conscious.
Divine Health (Ex)
At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Holy Aura (Su)
Starting at 4th level, a paladin can begin to project the favour of their in the form of a magical aura (see Holy Auras sidebar). These auras can protect her companions or demoralize evil foes.
Projecting an aura is a swift action, and a paladin can only project one aura at a time. An aura remains in effect until the she uses a free action to dismiss it or project a new one in its place. It may be active continuously, and may be in effect even before an encounter begins. Auras affect all allies (including the paladin) within a 30’ radius with line of effect. It is automatically dismissed if you become unconscious or dead, but remains active if you are otherwise incapacitated and unable to act (eg. Paralyzed),
The bonus granted by the aura is +1, and increases by +1 every 4 levels (8th, 12th, 16th, 20th). The paladin may only learn a limited number of auras and cannot change them once they are selected.
Companion (Ex)
At 5th level, a paladin attracts a special follower. They may choose from a Mortal or Celestial Companion. All companions are Lawful Good. Calling a Companion takes 24 hours of uninterrupted prayer and meditation.
A Mortal Companion is a fighter of the paladin’s race. They begin play 2 levels lower than the paladin and progress as a regular NPC Cohort (see the Leadership feat). Celestial Companions are extraplanar magical beasts (celestial template) or outsiders that are sympathetic to the Paladin’s cause. The ECL of a celestial Companion is 2 below that of the paladin. If the paladin calls upon a celestial magical beast that is willing to serve as a mount, ignore the LA of +2 when calculating its ECL.
If a Companion dies, the paladin may attract a new one immediately. If the paladin ceases to be Lawful Good or looses her class abilities, the Companion departs and a new one must be called if her status is restored. A paladin may still select Leadership as a feat, but the Companion counts as a familiar, for the purposes of determining the other cohort’s level.
Bonus Feat:
At 7th, 11th and 14th levels, a paladin may select a bonus feat from the following list. They must still meet the feat’s perquisites in order to select it: Cleave, Extra Smiting, Great Cleave, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Skill Focus (Ride), Spirited Charge, and Trample.
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin auras and abilities (including their Companion, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies or bonus feats). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.
Paladin (as written by Xuttah)
Alignment: Lawful good.
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills:
The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Table: The Paladin
(I can't get the table to show in this format, so I'll sum up)
BAB: as Fighter
Fort: as Fighter
Ref: as Fighter
Will: As Fighter
Level 1: Aura of Good, detect evil, Smite Evil
Level 2: Divine Grace, Lay on Hands
Level 3: Divine Health, Holy Conviction
Level 4: Holy Aura +1 (1 aura known)
Level 5: Improved Smite
Level 6: Companion, Lay on Hands (improved)
Level 7: Bonus Feat (2 auras known)
Level 8: Holy Aura +2
Level 9: Lay on Hands (greater)
Level 10: Greater Smite (3 auras known)
Level 11: Bonus Feat
Level 12: Holy Aura +3
Level 13: Lay on Hands (superior) (4 auras known)
Level 14: no features
Level 15: Bonus Feat
Level 16: Superior Smite, Holy Aura +4 (5 auras known)
Level 17: no features
Level 18: no features
Level 19: Bonus Feat (6 auras known)
Level 20: Awesome Smite, Holy Aura +5
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the paladin.
Weapon and Armour Proficiency
Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armour (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).
Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
Smite Evil (Su): A paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her paladin level attack and damage rolls. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, then Smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up. A paladin may
Smite 1 + Cha bonus (if any) times per day.
At 5th level, a paladin’s smite attack count as a good-aligned magic weapon for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction or for harming incorporeal creatures.
A 10th level paladin’s smite counts as silver or cold iron for overcoming damage reduction.
At 15th level, the paladin‘s smite counts as adamantine for overcoming damage reduction.
At 20th level the paladin’s smite counts as epic for overcoming damage reduction.
Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. She may also sacrifice 5 points of healing to remove 1 point of ability damage or remove the Dazed, Fatigued or Sickened condition from one individual. Using lay on hands is a standard action.
At higher levels, the Paladin may use Lay on Hands to have additional effects.
At 6th level, a paladin may sacrifice 10 points of healing to remove the Exhausted, Nauseated, Poisoned or Stunned condition.
At 9th level, she may sacrifice 20 points of healing to remove a negative level or Blinded, Deafened, Diseased or Paralyzed conditions.
At 13th level, she may spend 40 points to restore 1 point of ability or level drain or remove a Curse, Domination or Geas effect.
Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.
Holy Conviction (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).
Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Holy Aura (Su): Starting at 4th level, a paladin can begin to project the favour of their in the form of a magical aura (see Holy Auras sidebar). These auras can protect her companions or demoralize evil foes.
Projecting an aura is a swift action, and a paladin can only project one aura at a time. An aura remains in effect until the she uses a free action to dismiss it or project a new one in its place. It may be active continuously, and may be in effect even before an encounter begins. Auras affect all allies (including the paladin) within 30 feet with line of effect. It is automatically dismissed if you become unconscious or dead, but remains active if you are otherwise incapacitated and unable to act (eg. Paralyzed). The bonus granted by the aura is +1, and increases by +1 every 4 levels (8th, 12th, 16th, 20th). The paladin may only learn a limited number of auras and cannot change them once they are selected.
Companion (Ex): At 6th level, a paladin attracts a special follower. They may choose from a Mortal or Celestial Companion. All companions are Lawful Good. Calling a Companion takes 24 hours of uninterrupted prayer and meditation.
A Mortal Companion is a fighter of the paladin’s race. They begin play 2 levels lower than the paladin and progress as a regular NPC Cohort (see the Leadership feat). Celestial Companions are extraplanar magical beasts (celestial template) or outsiders that are sympathetic to the Paladin’s cause. The ECL of a celestial Companion is 2 below that of
the paladin. If the companion has the Celestial template, it may ignore the +2 level adjustment granted by the template for the purposes of calculating its ECL.
If a Companion dies, the paladin may attract a new one immediately. If the paladin ceases to be Lawful Good or loses her class abilities, the Companion departs and a new one must be called if her status is restored. A paladin may still select Leadership as a feat, but the Companion counts as a familiar, for the purposes of determining the other cohort’s level.
Bonus Feat: At 7th level and every 4 levels thereafter (11th, 15th, and so on), a paladin may select a bonus feat from the following list. They must still meet the feat’s prerequisites in order to select it: any [Divine] feat, Cleave, Extra Smiting, Extra Turning,
Great Cleave, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Skill Focus (Ride), Spirited Charge, and Trample.
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen,
followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin auras and abilities (including their Companion, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies or bonus feats). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin
abilities.
Holy Auras Sidebar:
Courage: Bonus on saving throws against fear effects equal to double your aura bonus.
Defiance: DR 2/evil for each point of your aura bonus.
Lifekeeping: Allies gain a resistance to damage from negative energy effects (any negative energy effect that causes direct damage to hit points) equal to 5x your aura bonus.
Might: Opponents in aura range must make a save each round (DC 10 + aura bonus + your Charisma modifier) or become shaken for 1 round.
Peace: Bonus on Diplomacy and Heal checks equal to double your aura bonus.
Positive energy aura: Deals damage to any undead within your aura, equal to your aura bonus each round.
Puissance: Bonus on melee damage rolls equal to your aura bonus.
Steadfastness: Grants your aura bonus as a morale bonus on all saving throws.
Succour: Fast healing 1 for each point of your aura bonus, but only affects characters at or below one-half their full normal hit points.
Wrath: Opponents within your aura take a penalty on saving throws equal to your aura bonus.
Ooh, embarassing. I got beaten to it. Ah well, I'm just showboating, Xuttah has done the hard work.
EDIT: Now reconfigured with typos removed and the auras rejigged. I'd be tempted to limit the Defiance aura to 1/evil per point of aura considering that at low levels that's really going to be powerful, but bad guys do enough damage anyway, 2 points isn't going to break the game.
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Here's my take on auras...
Paladin Holy Auras:
Succour: Allies gain fast healing equal to the paladin’s aura bonus. Characters may only heal until half of their original HP are recovered.
Steadfastness: Allies gain a morale bonus to their saving throws equal to the paladin’s aura bonus.
Peace: Allies gain a morale bonus to Diplomacy and Heal Checks equal to twice the paladin’s aura bonus
Defiance: Allies gain DR/Evil equal to twice the paladin’s aura bonus.
Puissance: Allies gain a morale bonus to damage rolls equal to the paladin’s aura bonus.
Lifekeeping (thanks BEK for the reminder): Allies gain a resistance to damage from negative energy effects (vampiric touch, inflict spells etc…) equal to 5 times the paladin’s aura bonus.
Wrath: Evil foes suffer a morale penalty to their saving throws equal to the paladin’s aura bonus.
[edit] Thanks again for everyone's input. Any Pal-a-din is a Pal-a-mine. :)
*runs of to make a playtest character*
As I stated in this thread, paladins are not offensive powerhouses as much as defensive ones. They are a shield more than a sword.
The only changes I would make are:
Lay On Hands- At 2nd level, the paladin gains the ability to heal wounds by touch. Each day, the paladin can heal a total number of points of damage equal to their paladin level x their Charisma bonus. A paldin may choose to divide this healing among multiple recipients and doen't have to use it all at once. Using Lay On Hands is a standard action. At 6th level, the paladin can expend 5 points of their healing ability to cure 1 point of ability damage or remove the dazed, fatigued, or sickened condition from one individual, or the paladin can expend 10 points of their healing ability to remove the exhausted, nauseated, poisoned, or stunned condition from one individual. At 11th level, the paladin can expend 20 points of their healing ability to remove one negative level, or the blinded, deafened, or diseased condition from one individual.
Bonus Divine Feats- At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the paladin gains a bonus Divine feat.
Remove Disease- This ability is removed.
Giving the paladin a variety of auras just seems too much like Diablo II for me.
I would change succor and lifekeeping. Regarding succor, I really don't like that it only works at less than half hit points. To side with Grimcleaver's game view, it just feels too "mechanic-y," too contrived as a mechanism for balance without making much in-game sense (this is one of the few times I'll actually agree with Grimcleaver in using that argument, so enjoy it! :P ). There's no significant dividing line between 1 hit point, 1/2 your hit points, or 3/4 of your hit points; they're all just varying degrees of being wounded, but still able to fight.
I would suggest changing it to something dealing with negative hit points. Perhaps any ally who is reduced below negative hit points within the paladins aura automatically heals for a number of hit points equal to the paladin's aura bonus. This could save a lot of characters from death if the blow would have put them just beyond -9 hp, or left them at -9 with no chance for allies to arrive in time. Plus, it would stabilize them, thus stopping the clock to save the downed PC. However, it would actually be bad if the character jumped back up to, say, 1 or 2 hit points; then they become a target again without the hp to withstand almost any attack. Even the paladin's aura isn't likely to save them then. So, odd as it may seem, it might be a good idea to state that the aura cannot raise an ally above 0 hit points. The name may need to be changed in this case.
With regards to lifekeeping, I don't like making effectively energy resistance versus negative energy. Relatively few negative energy spells actually deal direct damage. Most impose some kind of penalty, from ability damage to level drain. Thus, lifekeeping wouldn't help a bit against these far more common (and problematic) attacks.
I would change lifekeeping so that it applied the aura's bonus to saves against some combination or all of the following: death effects, negative energy effects, special attacks made by undead, spells from the school of necromancy. I would much rather be shielding against the vampire's slam and leave myself open to a vampiric touch than vice versa.
Here's another idea for an aura: Increase the effective cleric level by the aura's bonus for the purposes of turning. You might also have one to increase caster level (though it may be a good idea to limit this to SR checks, otherwise a paladin with a +5 aura would let 5th-level wizards shoot 10d6 fireballs).
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Bonus Divine Feats- At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the paladin gains a bonus Divine feat.Remove Disease- This ability is removed.
Giving the paladin a variety of auras just seems too much like Diablo II for me.
Hiya,
Bonus Feats: I edited the bonus feat not to include divine feats since IIRC these are powered by turn undead attempts, and I excluded this ability from the class. I chose to do so because spending a turn attempt for a purpose other than destroying undead didn't seem right and I get the impression that they were introduced to help pave over some of the old paladin class weaknesses. Hopefully, this class can be run as a stand alone, without any splatbooks to make it competitive.
If it wouldn't be unbalancing to the class, why don't we just say that the smite ability may be used to qualify for these feats, and expended to use their abilities? Whatcha think?
Remove Disease: Replaced by a later ability in Lay on Hands.
Auras: Never thought of that. Interesting point, but it just seems to be a better mechanic for a warrior class than the ability to use a handful of spells. That way they are still in the thick of things as a frontline warrior and don't have to stop in the middle of a fight to boost the party. Most of the auras are defensive so the paladin's key role comes in his ability as a martial character. It's also not the first mechanic for D&D that's been taken from that game (weapon crystals, anyone?).
It's very odd how different boards have different concerns about mechanics. Here, there has been a lively discussion about the use of auras and maintaining relative power levels. On the OOTS forums, everyone is focused on rules the special mount vs. companion. Gods forbid if I posted to the WotC/Gleemax site. I'd probably be banned or get death threats. :)
Thanks again, my fellow Paizombies, for your help, input and the general quality of your posts regarding this humble effort. If you like the class, please feel free to use it in your games. I'm off to see about doing some test-play to make sure it works okay...
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Hi Saern,
The healing aura is basically a direct copy of the Dragon Shaman's. I just wanted to keep it the same so that both had the same ability, just with a cooler name in the Pally's case.
The resistance aura already gives a bonus on saves. Why not make Lifekeeping grant a double bonus vs. effects that channel negative energy? I want to keep it simple, but just don't have the smarts to think of an elegant solution. Maybe they can ignore (aura) negative levels from energy drain in an encounter? I dunno.
A positive energy aura that reduces the saves and turn resistance of undead could work. If you can have a penalty on a saving throw that it should be possible to have penalty to turn resistance.
I was just thinking it might be easier to make the aura boost allied clerics rather than drain enemy undead. Feels more in line with what the paladin is about, makes the clerics feel better because they get a buff (even if it's statistically the same as draining the undead, it's psychologically different), and puts the onus of calculating the adjustments on the players rather than the DM. Whenever it's possible to make an effect a buff rather than a debuff, I think that should be the route taken, particularly in this case. Besides, then you don't worry about whether the enemies should get a save or not.
Regarding lifekeeping, maybe the answer is to make a variety of save bonus auras. Giving a universal +5 bonus on all saves might actually be a bit much (or not, I'm just musing). You could make an aura which gave a bonus on saves versus mind-affecting effects, another with a bonus on saves versus negative energy and necromancy effects, and yet another with a bonus on saves versus poison and disease. Or perhaps you could make these all one aura, but the paladin can only ward against a certain type of effect at any given time, but can change the designated effect with a swift action or something.
Maybe, thinking about this, you could also alter the damage bonus aura. Perhaps there could be one for fighting classical evil (evil outsiders, undead), one for fighting "fantasy" monsters (dragons, giants; capture the chivalric knight feel, you know?), etc. Again, this could be one aura, but the paladin has to choose which version is in effect at any given time.
Bonus Divine Feats- At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the paladin gains a bonus Divine feat.Bonus Feats: I edited the bonus feat not to include divine feats since IIRC these are powered by turn undead attempts, and I excluded this ability from the class. I chose to do so because spending a turn attempt for a purpose other than destroying undead didn't seem right and I get the impression that they were introduced to help pave over some of the old paladin class weaknesses. Hopefully, this class can be run as a stand alone, without any splatbooks to make it competitive.
If it wouldn't be unbalancing to the class, why don't we just say that the smite ability may be used to qualify for these feats, and expended to use their abilities? Whatcha think?
I should have said "the only changes to the PHB paladin," I guess. The PHB paladin is not as weak as some people think. They are optimized to fight against supernatural evil, not with massive damage potential, but by being able to resist or counter many of the standard magical effects of evil monsters/spellcasters.
As far as Divine feats go, IMO they provide a much needed versatility to both clerics and paladins. They let the cleric or paladin use an ability with a very limited target set to provide more general benefits. In a typical campaign, undead are going to be encountered a lot less often than targets for Smite Evil and paladins are more limited on Smites per day, so expending a Smite Evil intead of a Turn Undead to power a Divine feat will be a much bigger expense of "resources."
Giving the paladin a variety of auras just seems too much like Diablo II for me.Auras: Never thought of that. Interesting point, but it just seems to be a better mechanic for a warrior class than the ability to use a handful of spells.
Spells allow more versatility than auras, IMO. Some people prefer to keep actual spellcasting with non-warrior classes, though. It's really a matter of preference.
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Spells allow more versatility than auras, IMO. Some people prefer to keep actual...
Darn limit on quote size!
I don't really consider one casting of Bless Weapon at level 4 to be very versatile. IMO the paladin doesn't get enough spell slots to be considered a versatile caster.
Re divine feats: I consider the introduction of divine feats as indicative of a problem with the versatility of the class in the first place. IMO they do the job well, but it would be better if some of that utility was built into the class itself.
I guess it all boils down to class role, flexibilty, and personal taste.
Again, I really appreciate all comments. If somebody wants to playtest the class and report back, that'd be swell! Even some combat simlations or a one-off adventure would be enough to get a sense of how the class stacks up.
[edit] PS I realise that this experiment has a very limited time to live too, what with 4dventure coming out with it's newer, kewler ideas. Maybe a footnote in some ancient gamer's house rules is the best I can hope for. ;)
Spells allow more versatility than auras, IMO. Some people prefer to keep actual...Darn limit on quote size!
I don't really consider one casting of Bless Weapon at level 4 to be very versatile. IMO the paladin doesn't get enough spell slots to be considered a versatile caster.
That's one casting of bless or bless weapon or cure light wounds or divine favor or lesser restoration or protection from chaos/evil. What spell is prepared for the day can be changed to suit the circumstances. Sounds pretty versatile to me. If your beef is with the Vancian magic system, that's a whole different argument.
It's an issue of too little, too late. The spells the paladin get are so far behind the curve that many are completely useless (case in point: paladins get dispel magic, but don't get a full +10 bonus on the check until 20th level, when the chance of success with such a roll is miniscule). Really, what good is bless weapon, which any other class with access to the spell has had since 1st level, at 4th? 5? 6th?
It would be a different issue if the paladin got more spells. Then they would be able to apply those small bonuses frequently enough for them to be a balancing factor. But 1 cure light wounds at 4th level? 1 cure moderate at 8th? Plus the paladin has to burn a standard action to use the spell (whatever he so chooses to prepare), and likely doesn't have Concentration (not really a high priority), so trying to use the spell becomes a big liability; much less efficient than continuing to Hit With Stick.
Paladin spellcasting may be more versatile than the proposed auras insofar as you have a larger list of things to choose from. But those options are also almost useless, save holy sword, mark of justice, maybe one or two others. "Spellcasting" hardly lends a significant amount of power to the class to be considered a balancing factor; it would be easier and more satisfactory to simply make a special ability which duplicated those decent paladin spells and build that into the class (along the lines of the Complete Warrior's non-spellcasting paladin suggestion).
The auras allow the paladin to bring significant and appreciable magical effects to bear without diverting his actions into the risky business of casting a spell. The proposal thus far is also to allow the paladin quite a bit of choice as to which auras they know (perhaps even having multiple version of a known aura), that seems to remain fairly versatile to me. What's more important, the amount of versatility lost seems to be more than made up for by the fact that what the paladin is getting is actually useful to him at the time he gets it and on through the rest of the level progression.
As far as the paladin being strong, but in a defensive manner: this may be true. However, most people don't seem to enjoy playing bricks. They want to be able to actually do something cool, not just resist what enemies throw at them. I've heard time and again that the paladin is optomized for fighting evil. How? He can endure a lot of the attacks they throw out, but on offense, he is, once again, a fighter without bonus feats. Smite evil is too limited in useages per day to really be considered "optimal" for fighting evil- quite frankly, any barbarian can bring the hurt to evil far more effectively than a paladin. The auras allow the paladin to actually extend those resistances it gets to others in the group, thus making them far more appreciable by the entire party. Further, they also allow the paladin to actually buff his allies offensively, as well. Finally, with bonus feats and more smites per day, the paladin can actually make himself decent at fighting evil without always calling Mr. Ed from heaven. (I also find most people don't enjoy a/the significant amount of their class's power coming from what amounts to a glorified pet; it steals from the accomplishment of the character and shifts it to the horse that a god loaned him).
Just my (somewhat rambly) 2c.
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I think Saern just summed up my whole reason for the class rebuild most effectively. Thanks, I couldn't have said it better myself. Really, I couldn't. :)
I've been engaged in an offline discussion with one of the people in my gaming group who is the primary DM. He thinks that the smite evil ability I've brought forth is too weak compared to the rage ability of our friendly neighbourhood barbarian. What do you think of this instead?
Smite: A paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her paladin level her attack roll and does double damage if the strike hits. The weapon also counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction or harming incorporeal foes. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, then Smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up. A paladin may Smite 1 + Cha bonus (if any) times per day. (higher DR notes clipped)
I think the normal smite mechanics are fine and the ability is brought into its proper power range by simply increasing the number of uses per day as a function of Charisma. Taking out the + (Cha bonus) to attack feels wrong to me.
I'd say, if you want the smite to initially break through some type of damage reduction, it should be treated as Good-aligned. That just makes sense. Perhaps Magic, too, but I'd actually wait a few levels before the paladin got that (though perhaps as soon as level 3, and certainly by level 5).
I'd be leery of comparing the paladin to the barbarian too much, actually. The barbarian is king of melee damage; the paladin shouldn't universally rival him. Making smite evil too strong could do just this, however, since the vast majority of a party's foes are Evil-aligned.
The paladin should be good against Evil foes, at least as good as a fighter (probably moreso- a better comparison might be a ranger against his favored enemy). I would only compare the paladin to a barbarian versus undead and evil outsiders. These are the epitomies of evil, and the paladin should be extremely good at dispatching them. He's got quite a few defensive abilities, as Dragonchess Player indicated, but against these two kinds of creatures, I do think the paladin should rival the barbarian for damage. This could be achieved simply by doubling the bonus damage of the smite, to (paladin level x 2).
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Hi Charles,
Thanks for joining in. The point is that the paladin's usefulness as a class is very limited with the current mechanics, at least IMO. They don't fight nearly as well as a fighter and don't have significant devine powers to keep pace with a cleric. Top this off with a rule that ties their class abilities to a CoC that is not very well defined and open to interpretation (our lengthy discussion on a separate thread is sufficent to proove that). Flavour aside, you are better off with a cleric/fighter build than the current paladin.
The rebuild I've proposed is an attempt to make the class worth playing through all 20 levels while granting abilities that can keep pace higher level characters of other classes. I'm proposing a more "inpirational presence" angle with the auras and making the smite ability a bit more useful. The healing abilities are now one feature too, so it's also an effor to simplify the current class.
I would like to keep the discussion centred around making the mechanics and flavour of this new class better and more balanced, rather than have this devolve into a discussion as to whether the paladin in RAW is a good class or not. Obviously, I don't think so and want to see what I can to to fix it; even if it is just for my own house rules. :)
[edit] I didn't change the saving throws at all for the class. BAB, saves, HD, and skill points/skills are all the same.