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Ok I have finished my first read of Hook Mountain. As a module I absolutely love it. However, from a PC's standpoint, what does it have to do with the campaign? It looks like a really big side trek more than anything else. Even the adventure synopsis never mentions Runelords.
These are the specific problems I have:
Part one to find the ogrekin: My Pcs usually don't like to allow survivors a chance to get away. It is highly unlikely they will be able to follow the ogrekin to their lair.
Once I force them there, how on earth do I tie this with a Runelord? Or do I just accept it as a major side trek?
Part two Retaking the Fort: Besides the Lamia having the sihedron rune, what ties the fort to the Runelord(from the PCs point of view-not like the traitor is going to pop up and give a long monologue about his role)? I can also predict that my PCs will begin believing the whole thing to be a Lamia conspiracy (which is not a bad thing).
Part three Busted Dam: Another side trek I assume. I have no idea how the PCs are supposed to tie this in with the Runelords.
Part four Dead things: Yet another side trek? What does this have to do with Runelords? Skip it all together? No idea why it is there.
Part five the Giants: Ok finally Sihedron runes! Something to do with the campaign! 4-5 pages so far! But, let's face it the giant bad guy is NOT going to live. So the PC's do not get the important info about the giants planning a big attack. Without that, it appears the PC's have wrapped up a really cool, though long, side trek, with minor tangents to the campaign at best.
So, how do I fix this? Was it really intended that 1/6 of the campaign be a side trek? I understand how it all fits in with the back story which is meant for the GM. But the PCs will never see or learn 90% of that back story. For them it appears to be one huge side trek with a total of 3-4 appearances to the sihedron runes in the entire adventure. Is that all that ties this to the campaign?
The first two adventures had clear connections to the theme of the Campaign. The Skinsaw Murders will probably become a classic adventure. Hook Mountain is good, but I just don't see the point of it. Please help!
Creative Director
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So, how do I fix this? Was it really intended that 1/6 of the campaign be a side trek? I understand how it all fits in with the back story which is meant for the GM. But the PCs will never see or learn 90% of that back story. For them it appears to be one huge side trek with a total of 3-4 appearances to the sihedron runes in the entire adventure. Is that all...
To a certain extent, yes; this Adventure Path needed to address two concerns. It needed to present a campaign with a story arc, and it needed to introduce players to a brand-new game world. Hook Mountain is more of a "introduce the PCs to Golarion" adventure than "Advance the plot of the campaign" adventure. It also is the first adventure to really use giants in a big way. Giants are this campaign's "main" monster theme, and in the earlier adventures they just weren't present much because they're poor monsters to throw at a low level party. It also continues to show off the ancient monuments that the runelords left behind; each one of these adventures features these monuments, and that's a theme of its own that ties them all together in a way that doesn't interface with a "plot."
So yeah; the themes that Hook Mountain hits pretty solid are: giants, huge monuments, Varisia, and sin. It doesn't really advance the campaign's plot much, but it does advance the campaign's themes quite well.
So, in my opinion, it doesn't really need to be fixed. HOWEVER, if you want there to be more ties to the storyline, the best way to "fix" it is to play up the presence of the Sihedron rune on the ogres; have the runes show up in prominent places on all the ogres as brands placed there by Barl Breakbones.
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Creative Director
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Tackling your concerns from the spoilers directly...
Part two Retaking the Fort: The lamia is the big tie to the runelords. Lamias are, along with giants, the main agents used by Karzoug. There's more lamias in Pathfinder 4, and a LOT more in Pathfinder 6. So that's probably enough.
Part three Busted Dam: The dam was built by the runelords; it ties in with a lot of other dungeons inside of and around Thassilonian ruins (Thistletop, the Catacombs of Wrath, Magnimar's Irespan, and in upcoming adventrers the Black Tower, Runeforge, and all of Xin-Shalast.) The dam itself is all about promoting the themes of the campaign.
Part four Dead things: This is here to give the PCs a purpose to head north to Hook Mountain. If your PCs are already ready to head up to Hook Mountain, you can certainly skip this.
Part five the Giants: The theme of giants plays directly into Pathfinder 4. In that the very first thing the PCs do in Pathfinder 4 is fight more stone giants. This section foreshadows the next adventure in particular.
It's always been my preference that not every minute of every day has to feature events that tie into the main arc. Sidetreks are okay by me. In fact, they're very welcome.
I really like this adventure and think that it ties into the overall campaign just fine. It foreshadows a lot of the events that happen later (like the massing army of giants), so I disagree that it's purely a "side trek" and has no connection with the campaign. In fact I was a little surprised to even see that suggested. I also tend to like a little break from the main storyline (though I don't think this really is such a break). It's nice to feel that not every adventure is totally built on the one before it. Furthermore it makes the adventure function much better as a stand alone module that could be used in another campaign. In fact this is one thing that I'm noticing about this adventure path that I think is done better than previous ones- the adventures seem to stand better on their own and are easier to use and pull things from for dms who aren't running the AP. I don't know if this was something you guys were make an effort to do, but I encourage you to continue this practice with future APs.
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James, as always you are so awesome. That helped a lot.
I could see how it all tied together from the GM view but was less certain from the PC view.
Looking forward it doesn't look so much like a massive side trek. Part 1 provided fuel for Part 2 and introduced the setting. Part 3 is doing something similar. It is introducing some more setting but also setting up later parts. Run it as is and it will feel more in place when the rest is added together. Got ya! :) I should have known you guys would never let me down :)
It helps when you have the whole picture and how everything ties in :)
And by the way, don't get me wrong at all, I absolutely LOVE Hook Mountain. So far all three adventures are amazing.
If every step the players take is directly and obviously tied to the plot, isn't that the definition of railroading? Have we learned nothing from DMotR? I thought railroading = bad.
Anyway, one of the things I like about Pathfinder so far is the wealth of background material, the variety of encounters, and extra adventure "hooks". The party can wander off the "rails" of the adventure path at any time and the DM isn't lost.
It's not that hard to keep the PCs aware that the plot is there, just beneath the surface. Like James said, just sprinkle the Sihedron Rune about, and the players should pick it up. Also, there are many NPCs that could give a "I think there's something big going on..." type of speech to help remind the players about the plot.
But the PCs are supposed to be heroes. They shouldn't balk at vanquishing the bad guys just because they're worried that killing these particular bad guys won't advance the plot.
If your party is so bloodthirsty that they never leave anyone behind to question, they should make sure they can cast speak with dead...
Presumably, it's "DM of the Rings," here's a linky to the comic episode in question.
So what happens if the PCs don't take the job?
At that point I figure that the mayor sends some other group. Presumably this group pokes around, gets hurt, and ultimately gets swept away by the water that bursts the dam. At that point Turtleback Ferry is pretty much wrecked, and that fact that Fort Rannick is deserted means less than it would have otherwise.
So this is unfortunate and means that a bunch of NPCs are dead, but will it wreck the arc? If my PCs decide not to go on the mission I'll just add a bunch of the NPCs to the bag guys later on, since they would presumably go join up with the army if the PCs hadn't already defeated them.
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Creative Director
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If the PCs don't take the job, then that's a GM indicator that the PCs aren't really into the campaign's plotline. At this point, here's what I would do:
Turn the direction over to the PCs for a bit. By the end of "Skinsaw," the PCs have been exposed to countless NPCs, adventure hooks, and locations. See what they want to do. If they turn down the job to go to Hook Mountain, say something like, "Okay then! What's next?" If the PCs have a pretty focused idea, run with it (this might requrie some adlib or adaption of other adventures for some content, of course), but eventually there should be a chance to weave things back in to Hook Mountain. Maybe the group that the lord mayor sent vanishes, and he contacts the PCs again but with more worries and a bigger paycheck. Or maybe another character approaches the PCs; Shalelu is a great choice. She's heard about the troubles in the Hook Mountain region, and someone she wants to check up on is in the area; if she has a good relationship with the PCs, she might ask them to accompany her to Hook Mountain.
In the end, if the PCs don't go on Hook Mountain, you can actually skip it without disrupting the campaign much at all. The PCs will miss out on a lot of the building themes (lamias, the Sihedron's constant reappearance, adventuring in and around giant monuments, fighting giants), but if you weave these elements into whatever adventure the PCs DO go on, by the time they hit 10th level and "Fortress of the Stone Giants" is ready to begin, they'll be ready for it.
If the PCs don't take the job, then that's a GM indicator that the PCs aren't really into the campaign's plotline.
Granted, but they might not take it right away. There are plenty of reasons to distrust the mayor of Magnimar.
My mandate from the players is to come up with a timeline and just have the adventure chug along even if they ignore it completely. I don't expect that they will, but if they're too slow then I need to know what sort of dire events occur because they were goofing off killing Licktoads (or whatever).
Thanks for the help!
It also is the first adventure to really use giants in a big way.
And in what adventure will halflings play a small part? ;)
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My definition of a campaign or an Adventure Path for that matter is that the adventures are linked in some way. Random adventures hewn together is not a campaign but rather just random events.
If I play in an Adventure Path or a campaign I expect there to be a linking theme. LOTR had a theme, as a matter of fact just about every single fantasy series has a theme. It is only in RPGs that themes seem to be considered bad. I believe that is why 90% of most campaigns are rather boring in the long run and rarely make it to the highest levels.
In this case I was amazed that seemingly 1/6 of the campaign had nothing to do with the theme. This would amount to, say the Star Wars series of 6 adventures had one that was about the same people but instead were running around fighting talking ape-men, with no force or empire or anything like that. As a series one would scratch their head and decide the entire series was rather lacking. Regardless of your opinion of the 6 Star Wars movies you can see what I mean now.
Also Railroading is not bad. Name one single adventure that does not railroad the adventurers. We'll start with ROTRL. Should the PCs choose not to fight at the very beginning, the entire AP is shot. Pretty hard railroading to me. PCs decide instead to help out the goblins and maybe try to take over the town. Gonna have a hard time fitting the AP in now. Maybe dooable but very very hard at the least.
Anyone who says Railroading is bad has no idea how to tell a story or run a game. Let's say we are running the LOTR as a campaign. And instead Frodo decides to use the Ring for himself and take over the world. A DM would have to rewrite everything he had planned. Instead of a Fellowship of the Ring you have a Fellowship Hunting the Ring-bearer. Let's try Star Wars and Luke decides to join the Empire and purses that goal instead. Whoops all wrong now. Let's try the Dragonlance series, the Heroes decide to join the Dragon Lords... mmm all those great adventures are now no good.
Name a single adventure where railroading is not used. First things first, if the adventure does not account for the PCs deciding to not play that adventure at all then there is railroading involved. :)
Also Railroading is not bad. Name one single adventure that does not railroad the adventurers. We'll start with ROTRL. Should the PCs choose not to fight at the very beginning, the entire AP is shot. Pretty hard railroading to me. PCs decide instead to help out the goblins and maybe try to take over the town. Gonna have a hard time fitting the AP in now. Maybe dooable but very very hard at the least.
Is it possible that this might simply be a stylistic choice each GM can make, rather than simply "good" or "bad"?
For the record, my PCs (all goblins) skipped Encounter One entirely. The were outside of the town of Sandpoint for the entire Swallowtail Festival. Sure, it's a bit of extra work for me but hardly shooting down the entire AP.
Anyone who says Railroading is bad has no idea how to tell a story or run a game.
That's a little strong, I think.
Also Railroading is not bad. Name one single adventure that does not railroad the adventurers. We'll start with ROTRL. Should the PCs choose not to fight at the very beginning, the entire AP is shot. Pretty hard railroading to me. PCs decide instead to help out the goblins and maybe try to take over the town. Gonna have a hard time fitting the AP in now. Maybe dooable but very very hard at the least.
I mostly agree with you, railroading is necessary. If I show up to a game with a city adventure in mind, and the players suddenly wants to go hunting in the forest, I'm in trouble, right off the bat. I think all players realizes this, and try to be accomodating. That being said, the best way to railroad is to make it look like it's NOT railroading, while in fact, it is. I'm running my group through Red Hand of Doom at the moment, and they are praising the campaign for the fact that it is very little railroading involved. While it is true that the mini-campaign is really open and that the players (within reason, of course), has a lot of option of where to go and what to do, I have been shepherding the players exactly where I want them to go. But they don't KNOW it, and that's the beauty of it.
An adventure path is, by definition, a railroad. If the players, like you said, decided to help the goblins and take control of the town, the DM needs to shake things up in a major way. The players need to realize that they are just along for the ride, and while they'll always have several options to pursue within a given scenario, they need to go along with the hooks and what not. A DM needs to work with his players to create PC motivation all the way. If more than half of the players can't really see any reason for why the PCs will do what the DM tells them to do, either the players or the DM don't do their jobs right. Or an adventure path isn't for them.
If the PCs don't take the job, then that's a GM indicator that the PCs aren't really into the campaign's plotline.Granted, but they might not take it right away. There are plenty of reasons to distrust the mayor of Magnimar.
My mandate from the players is to come up with a timeline and just have the adventure chug along even if they ignore it completely. I don't expect that they will, but if they're too slow then I need to know what sort of dire events occur because they were goofing off killing Licktoads (or whatever).
Thanks for the help!
How about the following for a brief timeline? I know the first couple "arrival" dates are off, since I don't have my copy in front of me, but these could be adjusted accordingly.
HMM Timeline
The timeline counts down until the day of the flood event at Turtleback Ferry.
- 24 days: Magnimar Mayor informs PCs of HMM quest.
- 17 days: PCs arrive at Turtleback Ferry via watercraft
- 11 days: PCs arrive at Turtleback Ferry via horse
- 5 days: PCs arrive at Turtleback Ferry via foot
-0 day: Initial Flood Event
+3 days: Dam breaks, Turtleback Ferry and surround region floods.
+15 days: Breakbones receives messenger from BBEG Stone Giant Guy
+21 days: Breakbones departs with orge horde and supplies for Stone Giant Army.
For real world flood info, the Johnstown, PA flood museum is a good resource. I'd imagine that when the flood breaks, completely washes away 80% of turtleback ferry, and the Kreegs come pouring out of the fort (assuming the PCs haven't dealt with them) to find and butcher any survivors.
The flood waters also "drowned" the Shimmerglens, displacing may of the fey. Rising water levels are felt throughout the region and major flooding in Ilsurian, Whistledown and Biston occurs.
The Skull river triples in sizes, as does Lake Syrantula. Eventually, residents of Ilsurian and Whistledown are forced to flee rising waters and the settlements are totally abandoned. The end result is the northward growth of the Mushfens and Lake Syrantula.
The resulting flood greatly strains Magnimar's relation with it's client cities and towns.
On the subject of railroading, I'm interested to know how much campaign background some of the posters in this thread are giving their players. I find that laying some ground rules (heroic vs gritty campaign style; allowed sources, etc) and a brief campaign overview ("An ancient evil, long forgotten, stirs in Varisia, sending out minions to cause mayhem and violence.") helps immensely.
How about the following for a brief timeline?
Nice! Thanks!
On the subject of railroading, I'm interested to know how much campaign background some of the posters in this thread are giving their players. I find that laying some ground rules (heroic vs gritty campaign style; allowed sources, etc) and a brief campaign overview ("An ancient evil, long forgotten, stirs in Varisia, sending out minions to cause mayhem and violence.") helps immensely.
I had my players read the RotRL Player's Guide, then discussed what I knew of the campaign themes (ie goblin and giant attacks on a backwater town). Once they decided that they wanted to play giant-blooded goblins I prepared a bunch of handouts describing their backgrounds and such, and we all got together for character creation. I answered as many questions as I could, but having only read the first volume I'm not sure that I had a good feel for the grittiness level of the AP.
Tbug: I'm really intrigued by your group. How do you handle Aldern? Does he fall in love with a cute goblin female?
Tbug: I'm really intrigued by your group. How do you handle Aldern? Does he fall in love with a cute goblin female?
My group skipped Encounter One (having been ambushed by some Licktoads who heard that the PCs were going to turn on them), so they didn't meet Aldern until he took some local human heroes on a boar hunt. One of the goblins was so impressive saving those humans from the boars that Aldern has fixated on him as someone to emulate.
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On the subject of railroading, I'm interested to know how much campaign background some of the posters in this thread are giving their players. I find that laying some ground rules (heroic vs gritty campaign style; allowed sources, etc) and a brief campaign overview ("An ancient evil, long forgotten, stirs in Varisia, sending out minions to cause mayhem and violence.") helps immensely.
I print out the chapters about the towns in PF 1 & 2 and allow the PCs to read them. there are brief spoilers, but nothing that they couldn't figure out as I hold the book up for them to see the cover of. I figure most of this data would be common knowledge, and that which isn't would be a dc 5 gather information check at most, like
My group skipped Encounter One (having been ambushed by some Licktoads who heard that the PCs were going to turn on them), so they didn't meet Aldern until he took some local human heroes on a boar hunt. One of the goblins was so impressive saving those humans from the boars that Aldern has fixated on him as someone to emulate.
Ah.. of course, they weren't in the city.. well, it's still a challenge, but so far you seem to be doing very well.
Thanks! The Shopkeep's Daughter is on the horizon, so we'll see how things progress from here. :)
Ahhh... after reading this thread, no wonder I hated Hook Mountain Massacre (well, not hated, but certainly put off). Krome's issues are certainly mine (if not more so).
I simply didn't "get" this adventure. Hook Mountain is so far away from both Magnimar and Sandpoint that I can't see my players either understanding or caring. (And as a DM, I certainly don't.) If the region was compressed into a quarter of its size, this adventure might be slightly more compelling, as opposed to being disjointed and unfocused.
Further, the next adventure synopsis is even stranger. Defend Sandpoint from the giants? The ones near Hook Mountain and vicinity? Not only are they not even close, there's loads of towns and villages between the mountains and Sandpoint (and based on that little gazetteer, larger and more important ones, too). Why rinky-dink Sandpoint? And why not much more important Magnimar (ignoring that it's even further)?
Bleh. While the locations were neat (dams are always always cool), as an Adventure Path adventure it was a failure AFAIC. Might have made a nice Gamemastery module, though.
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Creative Director
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Further, the next adventure synopsis is even stranger. Defend Sandpoint from the giants? The ones near Hook Mountain and vicinity? Not only are they not even close, there's loads of towns and villages between the mountains and Sandpoint (and based on that little gazetteer, larger and more important ones, too). Why rinky-dink Sandpoint? And why not much more important Magnimar (ignoring that it's even further)?
That's part of the ongoing plot... but basically, there's something Very Important in/under Sandpoint that Mokmurian wants to get at. The giants that attack Sandpoint aren't from Hook Mountain, in any event...