Okay there's a lot of stuff that people just hate that I'm okay with. People hate the new cosmology. I kinda' really like it (except some stuff about the devils that feels half-baked still). People hate the unfolding events in Forgotten Realms. I'm pretty excited. People hate the new god list. I think, Thor being a dumb choice notwithstanding, that it's going to be fine.
Here's what worries me. We have five books of monsters, at least one full book of magic items, books and books with new races in them. Is any of this stuff going to carry over? I mean is there never going to be another Dromite? Are the stonesingers and ragewalkers just gone, never to return? I mean I really liked a lot of that stuff. It was really pretty cool. It makes me a little sad to think we're gonna' be back to just the bare bones basics again.
Granted I still own the 2nd edition Monster Manual and use it frequently. I guess the gaming repo guy isn't going to show up and box up all my old books. Still it just feels a little dizzying seeing so much getting taken out of the game all at once. Whew.
Yeah, see that's my thing. This game seems a lot less like a modernization in the same way as 3.0. There you had a lot of things that were just common sense--standardizing rolls so they were all d20 rolls with high being good, establishing real skills rather than just NWP (though I still somewhat miss them for flavor reasons), and coming up with saves that weren't just arbitrary and stupid. They came up with a set of nice modern rules that were detailed and yet wonderfully flexible--so you could tell any genre of game with them. Yet the setting felt the same. Updated to be sure--with lots of Peter Jackson touches--but fundamentally the same.
So when you had critters in the Monster Manual, you felt comfortable taking the write-ups from 2nd ed. Heck most of the 3.0 writeups on monsters were just hacked edits from the old MM anyway. If you went back and read the writeup in the old books you were just getting a fuller more detailed version of the same thing.
This edition seems different. It might not be, but it certainly feels like they're changing the whole fictional background of the game. Who knows if they're even including a lot of the new races and monsters into this version? I mean a lot of the staple stuff will doubtless still be around. There will still be thri-kreen. There will still be umber hulks. My worry is for the relative newcomers--things introduced in the last three monster manuals, things tossed in from products like Expanded Psionics and Incarnum. Will things like the Zern even have a place in the new game? In some ways it seems like it would be easier to just drop them and make new stuff than to go through and adapt them--since they don't have the same kind of fan following as the more recognizable stuff. That's what bothers me a bit. I'd just hate to see that stuff get tossed out--cause a lot of it was really good.
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I think I can answer this. With the conversion of 1 ED to 2 ED and 3 ED to 3.5 ED, the conversion was mostly about taking existing rules and reworking them almost to the point of simply republishing with errata, only that is an oversimplification. The conversion from 2 ED to 3.x ED was a complete break from the older editions. The game was relatively reinvented, almost down to the core. Then, as now, some of the staples of the mechanics were done away with and new ones were created to take their place. In addition, a few new concepts were introduced in an attempt to fill the gaps. If this succeeded is simply in the eyes of the beholder (no pun). From what I have been able to see of the coming changes from 3.x ED to 4 ED is a similar to that conversion, but on a much lesser scale in regards to mechanics. This time they seem to be incorporating non mechanics changes as well (look what they did with the supporting magazines), but not completely reinventing the current system from the ground up. In this fashion, many things may be able to be carried over from the previous edition that have not been republished yet, but they will require a few tweaks. Unfortunately, I may be off base concerning the actual changes between the newest editions as I have nothing concrete to really make the comparisons, only rumors.
For the record, I am not looking forward to a new version of the game. I really am not interested in shelling out hundreds of dollars for new material that rehashes much of the material I already have (you would have to be a real enthusiast to have a larger collection than mine). I am already vested in a game that ties its own miniatures to it exclusively, so I am not looking forward to getting rooked into something like that again. I am not of the camp that hates change, as I was also looking forward to the third edition when it was proposed. At the time I thought D&D could use the change. I don't think that way now, but it appears that management wants to turn my hobby into another cash cow...
It's going to require a lot more than tweaks to convert 3.5 stuff to 4th edition. The developers pretty much said that they are too different to make a direct conversion work.
Right now, playing 3.5, I have access, literally, to over 2,000 monsters (including 3rd party products), and infinitely more if you include templates.
I have access to thousands of race/class combos.
4E is not needed.
My biggest dread about 4E is being eaten alive by dingos disguised as 4E books while Barney sings the "I Love You" song in the background....
[/threadjack]
My biggest dread (about 4th Edition)...
Is that it is fracturing the hobby in an unrecoverable way.
We are already seeing signs of this. And I don't see it stopping anytime soon.
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Right now, playing 3.5, I have access, literally, to over 2,000 monsters (including 3rd party products), and infinitely more if you include templates.
I have access to thousands of race/class combos.
4E is not needed.
I get 5 hours every week to play D&D.
1 hour is spent socializing.
1 hour is spent actually role playing.
3 hours are spent runing just 2 combat encounters (1 if the PCs are over 14th lvl).
I don't care how much material I have for 3.5 when the core mechanics and complex options require so much time to work through.
3.5 is slow. Encounters above 8th level take far too much time to run.
My choice is not 3.5 or 4E. My choice is 4E or a completely different game.
I am so done with 3.5
Contrary to what was indicated above, I had very little trouble using 1st edition materials in my 3.0 campaign. Some of the fights may have been tougher or weaker than they should have been, but that all balances out in the long run: an orc is an orc is an orc. Traps do damage. Gold is gold.
My biggest fear with 4.0 is that they will continue to point out things in 3.5 that are fatally flawed, so that I don't want to run it any more, but that 4.0 will also be fatally flawed, so that I don't want to run it, either.
Title this Confessions of a Former Fantasy Hero and DragonQuest DM
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Right now, playing 3.5, I have access, literally, to over 2,000 monsters (including 3rd party products), and infinitely more if you include templates.
I have access to thousands of race/class combos.
4E is not needed.
I get 5 hours every week to play D&D.
1 hour is spent socializing.
1 hour is spent actually role playing.
3 hours are spent runing just 2 combat encounters (1 if the PCs are over 14th lvl).I don't care how much material I have for 3.5 when the core mechanics and complex options require so much time to work through.
3.5 is slow. Encounters above 8th level take far too much time to run.
My choice is not 3.5 or 4E. My choice is 4E or a completely different game.
I am so done with 3.5
That's too bad...as a DM you should keep things moving. Try going to a story mode and tell the rules-lawyers to pipe down. Use the golden +/-2 rule and have fun. 3.5 works if you don't nit-pick the rules to death and spend forever trying to make everything legal.
If that's your problem, 4e wont help much after about the third year of supplements...
I get 5 hours every week to play D&D.1 hour is spent socializing.
1 hour is spent actually role playing.
3 hours are spent runing just 2 combat encounters (1 if the PCs are over 14th lvl).I don't care how much material I have for 3.5 when the core mechanics and complex options require so much time to work through.
3.5 is slow. Encounters above 8th level take far too much time to run.
My choice is not 3.5 or 4E. My choice is 4E or a completely different game.
I am so done with 3.5
Best of luck finding the system/game that gives you what you need.
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Right now, playing 3.5, I have access, literally, to over 2,000 monsters (including 3rd party products), and infinitely more if you include templates.
I have access to thousands of race/class combos.
4E is not needed.
I get 5 hours every week to play D&D.
1 hour is spent socializing.
1 hour is spent actually role playing.
3 hours are spent runing just 2 combat encounters (1 if the PCs are over 14th lvl).I don't care how much material I have for 3.5 when the core mechanics and complex options require so much time to work through.
3.5 is slow. Encounters above 8th level take far too much time to run.
My choice is not 3.5 or 4E. My choice is 4E or a completely different game.
I am so done with 3.5
You should give E6 a try. The basic premise is that characters advance normally to 6th level. After that, they get a feat every 5000 exp instead of more class levels.
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That's too bad...as a DM you should keep things moving. Try going to a story mode and tell the rules-lawyers to pipe down. Use the golden +/-2 rule and have fun. 3.5 works if you don't nit-pick the rules to death and spend forever trying to make everything legal.
Here is the rub - the rules for 3.5 are solid. The game does not bog down due to rules bickering. The game is just slow.
Playing loose and fast with the rules does not interest me. I love the fact that the rules govern the game in a coherent manner. That is why 4E appeals to me. If 4E has as solid a set of rules and it increases the pace of the game then I am all for it.
If 4E runs slowly then I would rather play a rules light system then tweak 3.5
That's too bad...as a DM you should keep things moving. Try going to a story mode and tell the rules-lawyers to pipe down. Use the golden +/-2 rule and have fun. 3.5 works if you don't nit-pick the rules to death and spend forever trying to make everything legal.Here is the rub - the rules for 3.5 are solid. The game does not bog down due to rules bickering. The game is just slow.
Playing loose and fast with the rules does not interest me. I love the fact that the rules govern the game in a coherent manner. That is why 4E appeals to me. If 4E has as solid a set of rules and it increases the pace of the game then I am all for it.
If 4E runs slowly then I would rather play a rules light system then tweak 3.5
Could go for west end games Starwars d6 type game. Fairly fun, fast and pretty rules light in comparison.
I get 5 hours every week to play D&D.1 hour is spent socializing.
1 hour is spent actually role playing.
3 hours are spent runing just 2 combat encounters (1 if the PCs are over 14th lvl).I don't care how much material I have for 3.5 when the core mechanics and complex options require so much time to work through.
3.5 is slow. Encounters above 8th level take far too much time to run.
My choice is not 3.5 or 4E. My choice is 4E or a completely different game.
I am so done with 3.5
I can respect that.
One of my complaints with 3.5 is also the time it takes to play. The problem is, I don't want to sacrifice complex options - nor tactical combat - for faster game play.
I also don't want to go from a pool of thousands of monsters (3.5) to a selection of 300 or so (4E at start) and have to (potentially) wait years for the monsters I like. I've got 'em now and I've already bought the same monsters for each edition. I'm older, (hopefully) smarter, and not willing to buy yet another rework of the same stuff anymore.
I also don't want to go from a pool of thousands of monsters (3.5) to a selection of 300 or so (4E at start) and have to (potentially) wait years for the monsters I like. I've got 'em now and I've already bought the same monsters for each edition. I'm older, (hopefully) smarter, and not willing to buy yet another rework of the same stuff anymore.
Do what I've been forced to do for the last 8 years, Dave. Convert them. I've even went to the trouble of creating my own pseudo-conversion 2e/3e creature template for 3.x creatures. Of course, it's easier to convert electronic copies of the creatures than those only in books, but eventually I hope most 3.x monster books should end up as PDFs somewhere. If not, I'll just convert the best ones from the books the hard way: one tedious line at a time.
It's a labor of love, though. I'm a confessed monster fan to the core, so while converting could be easier, the payoff for being able to introduce new creatures with preferred and manageable stat blocks to my players is worth it.
Do what I've been forced to do for the last 8 years, Dave. Convert them.
I just don't have the time to convert and play. I could probably do one or the other, but not both.
If I was retired, I could....
So, if everyone on these boards would just send me $5,000 each, I would go ahead and buy 4E. ;)
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That's too bad...as a DM you should keep things moving. Try going to a story mode and tell the rules-lawyers to pipe down. Use the golden +/-2 rule and have fun. 3.5 works if you don't nit-pick the rules to death and spend forever trying to make everything legal.Here is the rub - the rules for 3.5 are solid. The game does not bog down due to rules bickering. The game is just slow.
Playing loose and fast with the rules does not interest me. I love the fact that the rules govern the game in a coherent manner. That is why 4E appeals to me. If 4E has as solid a set of rules and it increases the pace of the game then I am all for it.
If 4E runs slowly then I would rather play a rules light system then tweak 3.5
Agreed, except 4e sounds no less complicated (and more minis-dependent with all the wild movement powers and options). I just hate to hear people loosing the fun to the rules...Have you looked at True20?
I really hope 4e is faster and looser and more dramatic. I've heard "action movie" used to describe it--and while I'm not looking for fantasy action movies per se, it sounds like it's headed in the right direction rather than "wargame" which is where 3.x wheezed out at.
I can do something with a fast, rules light system with lots of options and flexibility. I think the downfall of 3rd edition was its elaborate and often contrived "combat options" where you're so busy hopping your little guy through little squares that it felt more like playing Monopoly or Sorry than like a great story was being told. When I want tactical options it's a bit more out of the box than getting on the opposite side of a badguy to get a flanking bonus or putting myself in a doorway to gain attacks of opportunity. I want big dramatic scenes where characters are hopping from ledge to ledge to stay out of reach of a big pair of snapping jaws, hacking off tenticles as they latch onto their friends' ankles. I want exciting drama. Hopefully 4e is more like that. I could really put the battlemap away for the rest of my life and not shed a blessed tear. The best imagery is in my head.
As for restating favorite monsters--no real problem there either. I don't really use the stats as much more than an inspiration anyway. Big crusty creatures have more damage reduction. Light sprinty creatures are harder to hit. Bigger guys have more hit points. No problem.
My question is, when this new version of the game gets up and running, will the creatures and races I love really be part of the game anymore, will they still be appropriate. And really the more I think about it, the more I have to think that even if they aren't--I can't imagine the feel of the game will change so much that they can't be. I mean, even if they aren't in the game by the eighteenth Monster Manual, they are still historically part of the setting. Maybe I'm just making something out of nothing. The more I think about it the more I think I might have just answered my own question...
Here's what worries me. We have five books of monsters, at least one full book of magic items, books and books with new races in them. Is any of this stuff going to carry over? I mean is there never going to be another Dromite? Are the stonesingers and ragewalkers just gone, never to return? I mean I really liked a lot of that stuff. It was really pretty cool. It makes me a little sad to think we're gonna' be back to just the bare bones basics again.
For what it's worth, things like the dromites that are in the SRD will surely be converted by somebody asap (in fact, I know I'll have a dromite created and ready to publish within a day of getting the PHB. I love those little buggers). As for non-SRD items, I'm sure there will be fan conversions out there pretty quickly, as well, although of varying quality of course.
But as for official conversions, yeah, it's going to be a wait and that's one of the reasons I probably won't convert to 4e for a while (the other is my stockpile of 3.5 adventures I want to run). Some of my favorite books are things like Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum. I doubt those will be converted for a long time if they are converted at all. And that is a shame, because some of the more niche stuff is pretty cool. Maybe in the online Dragon or something, but we'll see.
Yeah, then again the answer I'm quickly coming to is does it really matter if there's no official release of Incarnum. Does that really kill Incarnum? Just because it hasn't been released in the new version? And you know what, I don't really think so. Certainly I've never been a RAW worshipper. I play pretty fast and loose with the rules to tell the kinds of stories I want within the D&D framework. I think I can afford to cut myself some slack and just feel free to use concepts from the old books fleshed out with mechanics from the new books. It'll be just like the old days.
If anything, it's another reason to be glad I bought those 3rd edition books--cause now I have access to things that go beyond what's been published for the current edition. No big deal.
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I also don't want to go from a pool of thousands of monsters (3.5) to a selection of 300 or so (4E at start) and have to (potentially) wait years for the monsters I like. I've got 'em now and I've already bought the same monsters for each edition. I'm older, (hopefully) smarter, and not willing to buy yet another rework of the same stuff anymore.Do what I've been forced to do for the last 8 years, Dave. Convert them. I've even went to the trouble of creating my own pseudo-conversion 2e/3e creature template for 3.x creatures. Of course, it's easier to convert electronic copies of the creatures than those only in books, but eventually I hope most 3.x monster books should end up as PDFs somewhere. If not, I'll just convert the best ones from the books the hard way: one tedious line at a time.
It's a labor of love, though. I'm a confessed monster fan to the core, so while converting could be easier, the payoff for being able to introduce new creatures with preferred and manageable stat blocks to my players is worth it.
I think is that you should share your lobor of love with us all. Pay them forward my Brother...
I think is that you should share your lobor of love with us all. Pay them forward my Brother...
I'm thinking of doing this very thing on my website. A bestiary of converted creatures, though I admit to having some reservations about my pilferings, for admittedly and without any shame whatsoever, this gnome knows no morals when it comes to creature abduction, mutilation, experimentation, and eventual conversion to my hybridal 2e format and whether the powers that be or other fellow gnome authors might get bent noses over public republication of their concepts, however variable from the originals they may be. The gray line is as thick as the back hair from a Spriggan. We'll see.