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I take it that the points of light theory is supposed to evoke a sense of wonder and danger, the old "terra incognito" idea, the old phrase "here there be dragons" on the verges of a map of the known world. It does evoke a sense of wonder, true, but I don't feel it's 100% necessary.
In my own travels I've been to numerous points on the globe. The furthest north was Norway, furthest south Panama, furthest east was (then)West Germany, furthest west was San Francisco; in service as a brat of and then a soldier in the U.S. Army mostly.
And prior to Dungeons and Dragons training I had an interest in at least being fairly cognizant of world geography, I think moreso than others around me,...something that was fortified by gaming. My point isn't to toot my own horn, but to support the fact that "the map has been read by ME."
Why is the map important? I've seen the map. The canal, or the river or where the road bends. The map barely prepares you for the experience of actually being there. The same sense of wonder can be evoked by a gm that knows his stuff.
I've looked at a map of New Mexico, but until I flew to Albuquerque, I had never flown over the sun-damned face of Athas before.
I think the points of light and the areas that await the illumination of personal experience, even vicariously so through player characters,
exist in the game as it stands.
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I'm with you on this Heathenson. It seems to me that the "points of light" design philosophy is so the DM can pull out a random encounters chart as soon as the PC's step through the city gate. Instant adventure! But you don't need this design philosophy to make your campaign interesting if you've got a good story.
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Here's another thing I noticed: a rumor or an unsupported truism can evoke that sense of danger and the mysterious.
I went to Panama for two week drill in the National Guard in the mid-nineties. I was told a few things: a friend of my mother's who soldiered there told me, among other things I'll let lie, to "watch out for the black water. Don't touch it. Don't step in it. And Lord help you, don't even think about drinking it. Don't even boil it, then drink it."
At our unit, we were also given a map of Panama City with 7 or 8 places we were strictly to avoid. One of these was the Blue Goose. Nobody could tell me what the Blue Goose was, or what the danger was.
Some people have an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other; in my more adventuresome days I had Bilbo on one, and Mad Martigan on the other. Bilbo ruled me in Panama; I heeded all this good advice. Mad Martigan even now taunts me: "you'll grow gray and die, idiot. And you'll never know what the hell was up at the Blue Goose."
Probably nothing good, I have no idea. There's probably nothing more than a switchblade there that had been waiting for my throat for 20 years, and will wait now forever.
And Panama's pretty well mapped out, I'd say.
If you want "points of light" in 3e, just buy the Wilderlands box set from Necromancer Games.
Great stuff!
Nobody could tell me what the Blue Goose was, or what the danger was.
A friend of mine told me that back in the 80s the word "blue" in a bar's name was a code word to signify that it was a gay bar. It is possible that the advisory was to keep the (presumably straight and given the time period likely homophobic) soldiers away from such an establishment.
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Nobody could tell me what the Blue Goose was, or what the danger was.A friend of mine told me that back in the 80s the word "blue" in a bar's name was a code word to signify that it was a gay bar. It is possible that the advisory was to keep the (presumably straight and given the time period likely homophobic) soldiers away from such an establishment.
(lol) When you said that, I googled "blue goose Panama City" and found a letter from William S Burroughs to Allen Ginsberg(sp?) about the place; apparently Mr. Burroughs had no luck hooking up there, so in 1953, anyway,.....it wasn't a gay bar....;)
The points of light phenomenon is also odd considering that the Eberron campaign setting does not really follow this mandate. Large areas of Eberron are well explored, well colonized, and well protected by the army or militia. Places like Aundair and Thrane are very large points of light.
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That's true. Also, I'm playing in Eberron right now and having finished some crude business in Sharn with some scummy nonhuman drugdealers that brought us close to trouble with the law, we are now heading to Droaam. All of the areas we are gaming in are fairly well developed in the campaign setting itsself if not elsewhere. In Droaam, much less on the road there, I have no idea what to expect. There exist points of darkness on those maps. An area established as "known world" territory can still hold mystery, uncertainty, and danger.
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The points of light idea intrigues me. D&D is by its very nature a "high magic" system. Between demons, devils, dragons, and powerful spell flingers nations would not develop around large population centers stuck behind static defenses. War would not be waged by massed armies moving in close formation. Power would not be centralized and concentrated in capital cities with halls of government.
It seems to me that everything would be decentralized - the government, the military, the population, trade, etc. Warfare would look a lot like modern combat where the core combat unit would be based on a platoon sized group working in a combine arms team - arcane artilery, combat medics, air transport, heavy combat units, special forces, etc.
Castles and fortifications would be a hinderance more than a help. A well placed rock to mud effect would bring the whole thing crashing down. Warp wood and shape stone would make things even worse. Area effect spells and breath weapons would make the concentrating effects of castle defenses pointless.
The points of light idea makes sense insofar as it decentralizs society thus making it more robust in the face of the type of devastation "high magic" conflict could bring. Like the internet a decentralized society could withstand the loss of node and still function.
If power, wealth, agriculture, and trade were concentrated in large population centers then, it seems to me, one massive attack would bring tremendous ruin to that nation.
Eberron is one fantasy world that seems to take this kind of problem into account. The war ravaged the world and peace broke out because the alternative was mutual assured destruction.
The other way to avoid the point of light situation is to lower the power and pervasive nature of magic. Worlds like Lankhmar or Glorantha come to mind.
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That's cool. It reminds me of a book I read by Mario Puzo called The Family about the Borgias. Cesare Borgia in his military endeavors hired a certain Leonardo Da Vinci as his siege engineer. When laying siege to a place that had....say....30 foot tall walls, (not sure of the exact figure) he'd let slip that Leo had invented a 40 foot tall siege tower, and when the castle's defenders built their walls up to 45 feet (again not certain of the figures) this put stresses on the walls which would cause them to collapse easily under cannon bombardment.
Magic....science...
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The Points of Light scenario is somewhat interesting, but unnecessary. If I understand correctly, the design philosophy is to make sure that there are opportunities for adventure in every part of the world. So you don't have to go to an 'adventure location' and later come back. A great example might me from Pathfinder 1. Even though the city of Sandpoint is 'a point of light', there is an ancient ruin literally overlooking the town (the lighthouse). Just 100 feet from the edge of town and you're in the middle of 'unexplored wilderness'.
That's a great concept. But unnecessary because I don't think Pathfinder is using the 'Points of Light' scenario. There are advenutres waiting to be had in every place, no matter how close to 'civilization' they may be.
So, while making sure to design adventures into every location is good, trying to 'remove civilization' to increase the level smacks of poor creativity.
Regarding 'powerful magic' causing a more decentralized society, I have to offer a dissenting opinion. First of all, static fortifications like castles are not ideal, but they make great defenses for the 'dungeon', which is a great defense in a high magic world. Safe from dragon fire and any spell requiring 'line of effect', the castle is simply the aboveground point for the 'dungeon defenders'. In my campaigns, I've always kept that idea in mind, and used an ancient historical battle that caused everyone to go 'dungeon crazy'. Essentially, a badly 'outgunned' ruler retreated into the dungeon levels and eventually defeated a much larger army through the use of clever traps and 'choke points'. And the attacking dragon allies couldn't do anything about it, so when everyone saw this 'defeat' turned into a victory (even though it wasn't pretty) they followed suit - it makes a great explanation why there are so many dungeons considering the prohibitive costs.
Further, powerful wizards are not likely to be 'interested' in nationalism or patriotism. If the 'king' poses no threat to you, you're most likely to do the things you want to do, which probably involve more of the 'getting more power and knowledge' and less of the 'blowing up enemy soldiers'.
I admit that I'm a map afficianado, and I like 'filling in the blank spaces'. But even when you have a map, there remains a lot to be 'explored'.
I don't care much for the Forgotten Realms, but I think it is a bad idea to take an existing setting and try to transform it into something that it is not.
I've always thought the scale of the FR maps made its own Point of Light feel by giving enough space between towns and landmarks to place anything the heart desires.
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But if the dangers to the farms (such as goblin raids) were too prevelant, then the farms couldn't exist. The farms' very existence tells us that the farmlands are not that dangerous.
Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying there aren't any dangers. I'm just saying that these farmers feel that it is safe enough for them and their families to live outside of the safety of a city.
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Actually, that was my point. Sure, the farmlands are generally safe, but it doesn't mean that there isn't adventure RIGHT in town.
For example, there is a lost and forgotten dungeon (the Lighthouse) overlooking the town.
In the city of Absalom (sorry no books) the same is true for the bridge. In Pathfinder #2 they indicate that the last time it was 'opened' bad things happened.
Now, even with these dungeons, people are able to live ordinary lives, allowing the kinds of things you only get with civilization. Which can be fun as well. I've played in strictly dark age campaigns, and some with stone age cultures right next to iron age cultures and beyond (Greyhawk anyone?). The importance of safety to civilization cannot be stressed enough. But with creative adventure design (like Paizo provides, you can still have 'adventure' in a settled area. Creatures are ready to attack the PCs, and it is believable, and the farmers can still produce a crop.
My fear is that 'Points of Light' is too damaging to the 'civilization' aspect of the game. And my feeling is that as some of these 'points of light' get really big (the size of a barony for instance) the whole point of points of light breaks down.
So, rather than 'remake' entire worlds to fit the concept, apply the concept to adventure design, and find adventures close to civilization, allowing for the 'fun adventures' but without limiting the scope of civilization.
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Regarding 'powerful magic' causing a more decentralized society, I have to offer a dissenting opinion. First of all, static fortifications like castles are not ideal, but they make great defenses for the 'dungeon', which is a great defense in a high magic world.
Its a great defense until you get swarmed by incorporeal undead, all manner of earth elemental, and all the other critters that can move through rock and dirt. Oh, and now that you are stuck in your dungeon the evil critters can just take all of your land.
That's the problem with high fantasy - the amount and variety of powerful entities makes it hard to justify strongholds and big cities.
Further, powerful wizards are not likely to be 'interested' in nationalism or patriotism. If the 'king' poses no threat to you, you're most likely to do the things you want to do, which probably involve more of the 'getting more power and knowledge' and less of the 'blowing up enemy soldiers'.
Why would a nation in a high magic setting be ruled by a warrior king? With the ammount of power they wield nations would be run by powerful spell flingers. Either that or there would be an arcane (or divine) arms race with the state investing heavily in arcane research and training.
This is why the points of light concept has always appealed to me - even before WotC placed that particular name upon it. It acknowledges the reality that you can't just bolt fantasy and magic on to medieval technology and patterns of governance and have it make sense.
If you want "points of light" in 3e, just buy the Wilderlands box set from Necromancer Games.
Great stuff!
Yup. Somebody went looking around at stuff already out and thought "Gee, I bet I can resell this to rubes."
The sense of long gone people is what I love best in the points of Light approach- I remember as I kid finding out that the hill behind our house once had a village on it, a village that The Famine 150 years before had wiped out. There wasn't even two stones on top of each other, just some undulations on the grassy turf. Thing is, in the next fields over was a Celtic Iron Age Hill fort, complete with earthwork ditches- much more visible in spite of being at least 1500 years older.
The empty lands of Middle Earth caught that same patina of history, it's one I love to catch for my players in any games I run.
I just don't think the whole point of light thing is new. I always saw that as apart of D&D. But I am glad they WOtC, bring it up. I like it. That is what the Forgotten Realms conjures up for me, or used to. Now it is the most played out fantasy setting in the multiverse. Personally I am glad WotC is going to put back the Forgotten in Forgotten Realms. Although if I play 4e, It will most likily be my own homebrew campaign, with lots of pointy lights, tieflings, 2 kinds of elves, changlings and GNOMES (even if I have to make my own, lazy WotC twits).
IDK--a farm can be a pretty freaky place sometimes. Especially at night...
It's like the rulership of the city lights has no authority there, and the very stars in the sky burn with unattenuated eldritch powers.
The cold thing, it creeps into my gut and tells me one more time it won't let go
This is a bad place, this farm. People have died here
The wrong way
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Ptolus is the best setting I've ever used. It gives the lie to every notion that adventures take place beyond the bounds of civilisation.
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As for Arcane rulers bestriding the globe... The FR solution was to have only a handful of casters in the 20th level range and have them at odds with one and other. Manshoon can't stomp around blitzing everyone when Elminster or The Simbul might exploit his exposed position.
To use their power morst effectively those who wish to manipulate the world must be more subtle.
Similarly; this is the material plane, not an elemental plane - all of those summoned elementals have homes to go to, Beholders kill others of their kin and show no desire to dominate humanity, Dragons have to confront those noble dragons who feel a responsibility for preventing the world being trashed by their kin (plus adventurers, wizards, etc.) Liches face saints, Demons are banished...
And does your power-crazed archmage really want to run a nation; arranging the bureacracy whilst his rival creates The Wizard-Binding Sword Of Lek'Thel?
And if he doesn't want to run one, then why does he want to destroy it? Sheer spite? What interest does this mage have in reducing the world to points of light? Especially when he has a personal interest in the wizards college he went to (he wants his kids to go to his alma mater, obviously), and he likes going to the theatre, and finding clean women with manners whose hair smells of jasmine, and eating food made by top chefs who draw upon centuries of fine-dining tradition... Unless he's gone a bit mad any archmage is a sophisticated, highly-intelligent individual with tastes to match; he values the city more than most.
To be fair to WotC, they're not stealing anyone's idea but rather developing ideas that one of its new designers had already written about. Mike Mearls was a strong proponent of the Points of Light idea in his Iron Heroes variant rules, and now that he's working for WotC this idea is being incorporated into mainstream D&D.
It worked really well in Iron Heroes but it's probably not a good fit for the Forgotten Realms, and it really needs a low-magic setting so that the concept isn't made ridiculous by ubiquitous magic (eg: what's so scary about the wilderness if you can teleport to any town for 1000gp or air walk across the ocean?). Points of Light works well for the worlds of Conan, The Black Company, Iron Heroes and Fafhrd & The Grey Mouser, but not so well for the worlds of Elminster, The Simbul, Sigil and Dragonlance.
...Points of Light works well for the worlds of Conan, The Black Company, Iron Heroes and Fafhrd & The Grey Mouser, but not so well for the worlds of Elminster, The Simbul, Sigil and Dragonlance.
AAAhh fooey!!! My campaigns are all "pointy lights" and high magic. BUt I have never run a campaign above 10th level. SO those teleport spells rarely get play.
Ohh and Mike Mearls didn't come up with "point of Light concept", I've been using it since keep on the border lands.. Although I am glad WotC has coined the term, and has been broadcasting the term as design concept for D&D.
I like the Points of Light idea. I think it provides a really plausible incentive for people to become adventurers and I like that maybe magic items won't be as widely available as they seem to have been in 3rd and 3.5. I don't think it's necessary to adapt the Forgotten Realms to fit it, though. I would have preferred just a new example town with some adventure hooks as a starting point for new DMs.
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And does your power-crazed archmage really want to run a nation; arranging the bureacracy ...
No more than the warrior king wants to. Power harnessed to conquer and rule is always the strongest available.
D&D has so many powerful entities and so many ways to wreak havoc that society would become decentralized as a matter of survival.
The points of light concept simply recognizes that the power present in a high fantasy setting means that populations will spread rather than become concentrated in strong points that offer no real protection.
Think of it this way. How many times at the table does a party fight shoulder to shoulder if they are being attacked by a spellflinger capable of inflicting mass AoE damage.
The point of light concept just takes that tactical reality and moves it to a societal level.
Society in a high magic world is a great thought exercise. On the one hand, as crosswiredmind proposes, decentralization could prevent all those creepy undead and spellcasters adn assorted nasties from finding easy hunting. On the other hand, a civilized city could certainly have a greater collection of heroes and resources to beat back those nasties.
Let's take the example of the incorporeal undead. Sure, they can walk through walls, and whether it's a hut or a castle makes no difference. There's more flesh to corrupt in a castle (generally), but there is far less likely to be a cleric or a hallow spell active in a hut. Hmmm, either system of society works.
What about dragons? Well, a fortress can offer shelter to all those people, and hold heroes and seige equipment that might actually damage a dragon. A collection of huts will likely just pray that only the cows are taken. Depending on whether the dragon likes to make a splash, or just likes a warm meal, either system works.
Spellcasters? Well, a tower in the wilds lets them do their own research without interruption... except for the occasional incorporeal undead or dragon. What about a city -- well , there's laws and rulers and hustle and bustle and interruption, but lewer wandering monsters or overt attempts to bring one down. Let's call it a pass.
So why do civilizations develop cities? Let's get to the heart of hte matter. It's money. As DnD players, we sometimes think everything it monsters and mazes (haha), and forget that economics is the simplest force driving society (though we don't forget that when a new edition rolls out...).
As a thought exercise, consider a high-producing mine. One has to dig a lot to get the gold, and it ain't going anywhere on its own. The miners probably wish they had some comforts of home, and some entertainment, and maybe some family (or hookers!). Naturally they guard their claims pretty fast, but welcome people to provide these other services. And when the incorporeal, spellcasting dragons move in, they hire people to repel them. Unless its a really wel-kept secret, a superb mine will lead to some sort of city nearby (voila! San Francisco!).
Now converely suppose a rare herb grows throughout a haunted forest known to be the desmesne of witches who consort with demons. Well, the capital is spread out, and there is a lot of danger, so the accumulation of wealth will likely be through stealth. People sneak in, grab a load of herbs, and beat it back to relative safety. No cities here.
My long-winded point is that a high magic society can have either (or both) big cities and small points of light. It just comes down to economics.
There's another reason for cities: safety in numbers.
Let's say a dragon needs to eat the mass equivalent of 100 humans at every meal. If you live in a village of 100 people when the dragon comes through, you're just SOL. But if you live in a city of 10,000 people, then statistically speaking you've got a good chance of survival.
Besides, after you're done roaming the wilderness killin' critters and cleaning out old ruins, you need somewhere to spend the swag! Hence, the Stick's argument.
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The mine example is interesting. Here is where high fantasy is often short sighted though Eberron does it better.
Why use miners at all? Work a deal with a powerful caster and some Xorn. Form a corperation and wack the crap out of the ground til it gives up the gold.
Big houses (like Eberron) would form to exploit powerful magics and critters to do the work half the time and one tenth the effort thus maximizing profit.
As for the safety in numbers thing. I don't care how many clerics are in a big city. If an evil overlord gathers 100 incorporeal undead, a bunch o zombies, and some flying naties then any big city will fall.
Even if the clerics come to the rescue people will head for the hills.
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I would say it's inapropriately applying a tactical reality to a societal level.
The word I'm looking for is motive. Why are all of these superbadasssweetdaddyjones spellcasters determinedly destroying any population centre which begins to develop? What's in it for them.
And mining with Xorn? The humanoid entrepreneur can give them nothing, and what he wants to sell they want to eat - Xorn arriving is a disaster for any mine.
As I alluded in my previous post, I played a character in a campaign that was very much a points of light ideal.
The world was BLEAK. Even after the backstory, which mentioned that the humans and elves had driven back the drow and giants which had long held sway over the remnants of society, the outlook was bleak.
Our characters started in a border fort in the woodlands north of a mountain range. Our DM had converted Return the Keep on the Borderlands for 3e. Our DM was also one to pose serious tactical challenges. We had one battle that changed tide four distinct times, and ultimately came down to two lucky dice rolls, one where the villain horribly missed on his attmept to hit with a poisoned throwing axe, and then failed his save against that same poison when the monk returned his axe to him.
At one point, around 5-7th level, we faced an assault by hobgoblins, bugbears, ogres and trolls. Even with some city guardsmen, it was a tough battle, but we finally rallied and a couple of dashed out the gates to finish off the ogres and trolls. That was when the freaking giants showed up! Tom was famous for well-thought-out tactical waves of enemies.
As soon as that battle ended, the undead arrived. Granted they were winged multi-armed bizarrities seeking to terrorize and capture a few people to guage our defenses, but there was no way anyone else we had met in the world could handle them.
And that was the point. The Keep was the largest "city" we had seen, largely by virtue of its location. Only the fact that some adventurers were gaining power did it draw attention. As far as we knew, the world only had about 1000 or so human inhabitants left (we later found more hundreds of miles to the east). However there were near limitless numbers of undead and humanoids and evil clerics and mages lined up against us. In fact, the undead armies of the Vecna cult were finally gaining the upper hand in their battle agains the elves (who could not help us, even though we were essentially protecting their flank).
The pressure not to fail was strong. As far as we knew, there was one other group of heroes who could drive back the evil forces. I repeat, the world was bleak, and we ended up heading to other planes for allies and to try to just give humans a chance to survive.
And the game worked. Not because that's the only way it could possibly work in a high-magic "society", but because of the logical underpinnings and plot machinations. Tom crafted a fantastic PoL campaign. But when we managed to peirce the veil hiding our continent and travel to one less threatened, cities existed there because they could. There were not legions of undead and evil at every door on that continent, even though our home seemed that way. Part of the adventure was to see that contrast and seek allies who could stand up to such things.
So again, there are lots of ways to set up DnD worlds and societies. As a logician, I can lots of radically different viable societal norms. As long as there is a logic behind it, and the DM and players buy into it, it can be fun.
Crap, I think the board monster ate my monster post.
Well, it was "tl:dr" anyway. Long story short; diff'rent strokes for different folks.
Cheerio.
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I would say it's inapropriately applying a tactical reality to a societal level.
The word I'm looking for is motive. Why are all of these superbadasssweetdaddyjones spellcasters determinedly destroying any population centre which begins to develop? What's in it for them.
And mining with Xorn? The humanoid entrepreneur can give them nothing, and what he wants to sell they want to eat - Xorn arriving is a disaster for any mine.
Hardly - take a look at the development of cities as military technology changes. Why don't we build castles? If you can drop a bomb then big walls don't mean much.
As for motive ... power, money, influence, greed, and the realization that the appropriate application of arcane might can bring a nation to its knees.
As for the xorn ... are they without needs or motives? I like the xorn hooker idea - might use that in my campaign.
All beings have needs. Power can gather to it those that need and connect them with the things they need.
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I think Xorn need valuables to eat. I'm not seeing them as useful miners. And paying them in stat enhancing items? Even assuming no price penalty for not making it a cloak (non-standard body slot) you're looking at least 2000 gp per miner. Compared to unskilled laborers at like 5cp/day. For the price of one Xorn I could get over 100 men for a year.
I think another way to look at it is in our modern day and age. I think it is obvious that we have enough firepower to make living in cities a little dangerous. Nuclear weapons for instance. And of course, grenades and other explosives make forming tightly packed knots a bad idea in principle. And yet, we still have cities, and when police stand against a riot they do so in a should to shoulder formation.
Sure, standing in a line is a bad idea if you're about to be hit by a lightning bolt, but standing back to back is good if you're fighting rogues. You take advantage of your advantages and your enemy's weaknesses.
I think there certainly should be some 'wilderness', and I think a campaign does well with 'points of light'. I don't think you have to fill in every spot on the map with civilization, but I don't think you need 'active gods' either. My one complaint with Pathfinder... Though it hasn't gotten too out of hand yet.
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I think some of this is that, eventually, there's just too much information--Star Wars novels apparently go through a gaggle of continuity editors and finally the Man-Lucas Himself before they get anywhere near publication, all because the SW universe is so complex. Sincerely, the professional level of continuity (and if you read these books, then you know what I mean) is phenomenal. D&D fiction (FR, DL, et al) is sorely lacking in the continuity department, and WotC is among the worst (not as bad as TSR) in the industry in terms of copy editing, so that they have trouble keeping story lines straight should come as no surprese. In the end, it's just easier to tear it all down and start over again...
*--and no offense to any editors out there; I don't think anyone can really say word-one until they've sat at a desk with twelve manuscripts and five days to get them all straight...