One thing that Erik wanted in the Core Beliefs (Greyhawk) articles was a mention of a heretical cult or a document supported by only some of the faith. The idea was to leave the door open for various offshoots of the main religions, which could end up in religious wars. I don't have my Desna document with me but I think I did that for her, and I certainly did for the 2nd Core Beliefs in Pathfinder (presented as an obvious omission/missing piece in the goddess' "bible").
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I want the races to be as culturally different as Christians and Muslims.
Or even as culturally different as the worship of Tyr/Zeus (in a more extreme example). Personally, I'd love this sort of thing--it goes a long way to develop and showcase the distinctiveness of each race's or ethnicity's culture.
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Ok, maybe I am wierd but I have always wanted more contrast to the races in thier religous/societal beliefs. Elves in my world tend to be a bit facist and extreme in thier druidic beliefs. Dwarves very monothiestic and many are zealots. Humans have a large pantheon, "borrowing" from thier neighbors. ect... how would this effect the current sttus quo in golarion? I know I can "make" it what I want, I just don't want to get too far afield from what will be published, and therefore confuse my players to no end, or have to do tons of rewriting to get them to sync. (already have done tons)
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I want the races to be as culturally different as Christians and Muslims.
I want my races to be much more different than that. Both of these religions have the same creation myths, half the same scripture and loads of similar assumptions built into their belief systems (patriarchy, concept of the soul, concept of heaven etc.)
I prefer species whose assumptions flow from different springs. I once created a culture whose religious worship was built around ritual foods - never got around to DMing with it but I will one day.
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Both of these religions have the same creation myths,
Assuming that a divine pantheon of any sort views Creation as a reality, not a myth...
...wouldn't it follow that more than one race/culture/religion would be told the same story by their dieties.
Maybe from different perspectives but still the same overarching theme.
Or do we just assume the gods (including gods of law, order and honesty) make this stuff up for the benefit of their followers.
I understand the fact that different races and cultures may choose to flavor their interpretations of the gods' divine messages and sometimes might in fact make up their own stories. Still I wouldn't be surprised in a world created by divine beings to dig up ancient scriptures in a long lost tomb and find, surprise, they are identical to the scriptures we use... just in a different language.
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Because God A is going to admit that God B created the universe?
not a chance :b
But that's just to a bad example i chose, perhaps if i'd put Monotheistic and has a concept of Satan instead... The point I was making is that you can go much further in dnd than the difference between Christianity and Islam. And with all of the magic and strange species you can justify it too.
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The point I was making is that you can go much further in dnd than the difference between Christianity and Islam. And with all of the magic and strange species you can justify it too.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that religious differences are not the same as cultural differences.
Religion affects questions of ... How did I get here? (Good dieties will be honest, evil dieties might lie) How should I live? i.e. moral choices, worship, etc. What happens when I die?
Culture deals with dress, food, manners, social norms, courtship, work, etc.
It is perfectly feasible for two races to worship the same god, believe they got there through divine providence in a similar fashion, believe they go to the same place when they die and yet still be totally different from each other biologically and culturally. Their culture will also shape their application of their religion but should not alter core truths (assuming those truths are divine).
At the same time, with multiple deities and alignments, two very different cultures will venerate very different gods. The answer is not to create a new god every time you want a new culture. The answer is to pick which of the existing deities best matches that cultural outlook and apply that one. Elves and Dwarves will almost always venerate different ideals. That seems only natural. But a human that venerates the same ideals and chooses a similar divine leader should ultimately find at least a little in common it seems to me with other worshippers of the same religion, no matter how little that have in common otherwise.
So yes, you can go further in DnD with the differences, but how many godlings does one need to show all the various ideals?
No, we won't flood Golarion with needless deification. We'll probably tuck in references to other deities now and then, but we won't have a cast of thousands. :)
:-/ looking here
http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/p/paizoPublishingLLC/gameMastery/pathfinde r/pathfinderChronicles/v5748btpy80ic
and reading this: "...detailed descriptions of more than 30 gods and their religions..."
i fear water rushing in...
30 isn't much. That's a decent size for a pantheon. It has to accomodate a dozen races and a hundred places, as well as scores of ideas and concepts that make up their portfolios.
30 isn't much. That's a decent size for a pantheon. It has to accomodate a dozen races and a hundred places, as well as scores of ideas and concepts that make up their portfolios.
You have a point. Still hope that this will then be the max with future products only occasionally throwing in a new god (i can live with that). As stated before, i only hope for a non-FR approach.
Yes, I'll point out we covered the 30 (40?) biggest FR gods in the FRCS, and it wasn't a crazy motley crew. The Norse pantheon has a comparable number (including minor ones like Bragi and such), and while the Greeks had their primary twelve there were still others (Eos the dawn, Selene the moon, Pan, and so on) that rounded out the pantheon to about 25-30. Certainly not a flood.
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the Greeks had their primary twelve there were still others (Eos the dawn, Selene the moon, Pan, and so on) that rounded out the pantheon to about 25-30. Certainly not a flood.
If you include the Titans as gods (which they certainly *were* before being demoted by the Hellenes), and treat all the regional deities that got conflated and subsumed into "the Gods" as we know them as individual deities, and throw in culture heroes like Herakles and Theseus, you could probably get a "Greek pantheon" in the low triple digits.
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Yes, I'll point out we covered the 30 (40?) biggest FR gods in the FRCS, and it wasn't a crazy motley crew. The Norse pantheon has a comparable number (including minor ones like Bragi and such), and while the Greeks had their primary twelve there were still others (Eos the dawn, Selene the moon, Pan, and so on) that rounded out the pantheon to about 25-30. Certainly not a flood.
Yes, but wasn't there nearly twice that in the book Faiths and Pantheons? Or am I mistaken?
Though... that number DOES cover about six demi-human pantheons and an additional human culture in addition to the others...
::shrug::
{Yes, but wasn't there nearly twice that in the book Faiths and Pantheons? Or am I mistaken?}
The "official list" I put together while I was "Realms Guy" was about 120 FR gods, including racial deities and monster deities. So cutting that down to 40 key gods in the FRCS was no easy feat. :)
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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{Yes, but wasn't there nearly twice that in the book Faiths and Pantheons? Or am I mistaken?}
The "official list" I put together while I was "Realms Guy" was about 120 FR gods, including racial deities and monster deities. So cutting that down to 40 key gods in the FRCS was no easy feat. :)
Wow. And that doesn't even include other areas, such as Maztica or Kara-Tur, right?
Wow. And that doesn't even include other areas, such as Maztica or Kara-Tur, right?
Correct.
I still wish there were a single definitive god for the elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, etc. Not an entire pantheon, mind you. Just a single deity that is "iconic" to each species as their creator or something. It just feels odd that the deities held most dear by the other species are merely reinterpreted versions of the same deities worshipped by humans.
So, in an ideal Pathfinder world, I'd prefer to see 20-30 "core" deities (most of which are humanocentric, since humans dominate the landscape) and then add on another 4-6 for the demihumans (in total, not 4-6 for each species).
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I still wish there were a single definitive god for the elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, etc. Not an entire pantheon, mind you. Just a single deity that is "iconic" to each species as their creator or something. It just feels odd that the deities held most dear by the other species are merely reinterpreted versions of the same deities worshipped by humans.
So, in an ideal Pathfinder world, I'd prefer to see 20-30 "core" deities (most of which are humanocentric, since humans dominate the landscape) and then add on another 4-6 for the demihumans (in total, not 4-6 for each species).
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
But then that makes it so that characters choose a deity not because they agree with what that god stands for, but because they share the same height and ear shape. Plus it then leads to frakkin' pantheons eventually, and you saw what Sean had to say about Faerun. I can only imagine a deity for a race if said deity's worshippers were isolated.
Though, now I'm kinda hoping for a deity of long-eared elven outcasts... poor Shalelu...
I still wish there were a single definitive god for the elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, etc. Not an entire pantheon, mind you. Just a single deity that is "iconic" to each species as their creator or something. It just feels odd that the deities held most dear by the other species are merely reinterpreted versions of the same deities worshipped by humans.
I don't like it. I liked racial pantheons like they were done in the Realms (befaure the mass deicide), but other races only be allowed a single deity is boring. And it's speciesist, unless there will be "the human god" too. I say no half-measures.
If several races have a deity they rever a bit more than the rest, maybe because they think that it created them, but still revere all other deities, and other races can and frequently will still worship that deity, it might be okay. Not all races, though - that always looks like some game designer made "racial deity" a racial trait for "non-human, lesser" races.
So, in an ideal Pathfinder world, I'd prefer to see 20-30 "core" deities (most of which are humanocentric, since humans dominate the landscape) and then add on another 4-6 for the demihumans (in total, not 4-6 for each species).
Oh please not. Other worlds have that. The Pathfinder chronicles should not be like the run-of-the-mill game world. It should be special.
...I liked racial pantheons like they were done in the Realms (befOre the mass decide), but other races only be allowed a single deity is boring.
Maybe I didn't clarify very well? I'm not saying other races would only be allowed a single deity. I'm completely comfortable with some elves, dwarves, etc. worshipping Shelyn or Torag, too. I'm just saying I'd like for each of the races to have at least one deity that most people see as uniquely theirs...or at least the primary patron of elves, dwarves, etc...and their potential creator.
...But then that makes it so that characters choose a deity not because they agree with what that god stands for, but because they share the same height and ear shape.
Not really, no. If an elf or dwarf doesn't identify with his people or the exact principles of his patron deity, he can still worship one of the others.
...The Pathfinder chronicles should not be like the run-of-the-mill game world. It should be special.
I think Pathfinder and Golarion are already special. What would be extra-special, for me, would be to see a re-envisioned iconic elven and dwarven deity by Paizo, as well.
Perhaps it might make more sense if I explain it this way. If I or one of my players decides to play an elven cleric, why can't I find a deity who strongly identifies with the elves or created them outright and separately from the other races? Why do I have to take Shelyn or Desna or one the other deities that don't "feel" elvish enough? I can't find that kind of deity to put within my elf's background. Instead, I have to "share" that deity with human interpretations of it. And that just doesn't excite me (or some other players) as much.
Now, of course, I'm not limited to just using the deities in Pathfinder. It's my own game, so I can include whatever else I want. And I will. But, even so, I really would have liked to see a single, iconic deity associated with the PC races and how Paizo would have interpreted them for Pathfinder. I think they could have created something infinitely better than Corellon Larethian or Moradin. And that would have made the world even more special, for me...
But, as I said, that's just my two-cents,
--Neil
Perhaps it might make more sense if I explain it this way. If I or one of my players decides to play an elven cleric, why can't I find a deity who strongly identifies with the elves or created them outright and separately from the other races? Why do I have to take Shelyn or Desna or one the other deities that don't "feel" elvish enough? I can't find that kind of deity to put within my elf's background. Instead, I have to "share" that deity with human interpretations of it. And that just doesn't excite me (or some other players) as much.
I never understood why so many campaign worlds have racial gods for everyone except humans. What if you or one of your players decided to make a human cleric? Why can't you find a deity who strongly identifies with the humans or created them outright and separately from the other races?
...I liked racial pantheons like they were done in the Realms (befOre the mass decide), but other races only be allowed a single deity is boring.Maybe I didn't clarify very well? I'm not saying other races would only be allowed a single deity. I'm completely comfortable with some elves, dwarves, etc. worshipping Shelyn or Torag, too. I'm just saying I'd like for each of the races to have at least one deity that most people see as uniquely theirs...or at least the primary patron of elves, dwarves, etc...and their potential creator.
So why do they only get one? Why exactly one? Why only some elves worshipping someone other than Corellon (let's just call that deity Corellon for now)?
Why must they have one, but can't have more? Why can't they just pick the deity that has the portfolion that most strongly resembles that race?
Wood Elves would go for Gozreh, High Elves for Nethys, Dwarves for Abadar, and so on.
And why do we have to further enforce the racial stereotypes by giving each race one deity most people will feel is a must for their clerics if they're that race that will stand for everything the stereotype of that race stands, and those who are different have to go to "human deities"?
At least the racial pantheons allowed a certain variety.
Beyond the fact that it feels so constructed, it just limits the imagination and makes it harder to get away from stereotypes.
I think Pathfinder and Golarion are already special. What would be extra-special, for me, would be to see a re-envisioned iconic elven and dwarven deity by Paizo, as well.
I think they did a good job of it by envisioning them right out of the pantheon. That way, they don't endorse the idea that a "proper" non-human has several characteristics which are embodied by his or her race's god.
For me, that's one step short of making
Ironbeart Stoneaxe, LG God of Dwarves, Metals, Gold, Greed, Alcoholism, Rudeness, Axes
Perhaps it might make more sense if I explain it this way. If I or one of my players decides to play an elven cleric, why can't I find a deity who strongly identifies with the elves or created them outright and separately from the other races? Why do I have to take Shelyn or Desna or one the other deities that don't "feel" elvish enough?
Because elves aren't outsiders (and neither are any of the other standard player races - tieflings don't count, 4e can go to hell!). They're not slaves to ideas and ideals.
There should be metropolitan, outgoing elves, lazy but charming and sober dwarves, incurious and serous gnomes, sedentary halflings without "ong fingers", and so on.
There might be some concepts that certain races are said to cleave to more than others, but it should not go as far as having a deity that sums them all up in its portfolio.
I can't find that kind of deity to put within my elf's background. Instead, I have to "share" that deity with human interpretations of it. And that just doesn't excite me (or some other players) as much.
They're not "human" interpretations. They're humanoid interpretations, shared by all races. Art is art is art, no matter whether you're a dwarf, elf, human, or solar.
Racism shouldn't be a domain.
Plus, I don't get why humans get to have dozens of different cultures, but other races have to be all the same. Maybe the high elves of Eldaria in the east value the concepts of art, magic and warfare, but the wood elves from Sylvannor in the southern rainforests deeply distrust magic and are more about hunting and nature. And don't get me started about the devil-worshipping grey elves in Lothrien in the west.
If Pathfinder gives every culture/nation/ethnic group - including all the human ones - a deity that stands for all the national ideals, then all those elven and dwarven cultures, as well as those cultures that are mixed elven/human, dwarven/gnome, and whatever/whateverelse/yetantoherwhatever and so on, could get their cultural deity. Or maybe only some of them. But not one per race (except humans).
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...But then that makes it so that characters choose a deity not because they agree with what that god stands for, but because they share the same height and ear shape.Not really, no. If an elf or dwarf doesn't identify with his people or the exact principles of his patron deity, he can still worship one of the others.
I'm sorry, I misspoke. It makes it so that a character's player choose a deity to match the race. Players, even veteran ones, have a tendency to choose the best match based on their character's race. How many dwarves do you see worship Kord versus Moradin, for example, specifically Chaotic dwarven fighters? How about Lawful elves, who do they worship? (Hell, the PrC for the knights of CL in the Races of Wild is best suited for Paladins)