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On gnomes, half-orcs and tieflings, I'm bummed about all three.
But about the article itself, I like it. Nobody says it is going to be THE default campaign world; it's just HIS campaign world. And it sounds like he builds his a lot like I build mine - by swiping cool stuff from anywhere and everywhere. Hey, it's my world. I can put Nyrond right next to Breland if I want, and make them both down the street from Waterdeep. If you object to that, then don't do it in your world. I wouldn't want to see WotC publish a mish-mash world, but I can do it. I almost feel like the Points of Light thing is a way for them not to develop a default world. It's so fractured that a DM find room for anything he/she wants in there. We'll see how it goes, but I'm kinda' likin' the ambiguity of it all.
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No mention of half-orcs, either. I'd rather have them and gnomes than another flavor of elf, but I guess that's why I'm not a game designer.
It's a decent article, though. I just hope that Iggwilv's Legacy and Hell's Heart get put up there in full before the end of the month. Yeah, this Dungeoncraft stuff is nice if you haven't read it somewhere else or if you want to comb through for 4th edition but Dungeon is for adventures and it's more than halfway through the month of October with only a third of an adventure up.
Iggwilv's Legacy is out. Haven't read through it but the maps look familiar (Upper Level...Lost Caverns of Tjosancth), and it uses that same bad format that the Expedition series uses (tactical at the back)
In practice, maybe it works for some, but flipping around in a book gets old quick.
Creative Director
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It's like the SciFi Channel's Battlestar Galactica of RPGs. That might be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how WotC handles it and what your tastes are, but let's not make the mistake of thinking it's still the same game.
This is an excellent point. To carry it a little further... I hope 4th edition is a Battlestar Galactica. I'm worried it'll be a Flash Gordon.
It's like the SciFi Channel's Battlestar Galactica of RPGs. That might be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how WotC handles it and what your tastes are, but let's not make the mistake of thinking it's still the same game.This is an excellent point. To carry it a little further... I hope 4th edition is a Battlestar Galactica. I'm worried it'll be a Flash Gordon.
Ohhhh!!! That is a great analogy!
This is an excellent point. To carry it a little further... I hope 4th edition is a Battlestar Galactica. I'm worried it'll be a Flash Gordon.
I thought of making the same analogy, but I'm already negative enough about 4E as it is.
This is an excellent point. To carry it a little further... I hope 4th edition is a Battlestar Galactica. I'm worried it'll be a Flash Gordon.
heh I think you got your analogy backwards James ;)
Fun link for menehunesWhich is why I love them gnomes. They remind me of stroies of menehunes, the Hawaiian Gnome.I think gnomes add to the game's funkiness and allow for a certain style of roleplay that ushers mischief and humor to the game table. .....
Cool.
Mahalo!
It's like the SciFi Channel's Battlestar Galactica of RPGs. That might be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how WotC handles it and what your tastes are, but let's not make the mistake of thinking it's still the same game.This is an excellent point. To carry it a little further... I hope 4th edition is a Battlestar Galactica. I'm worried it'll be a Flash Gordon.
Good point Mr. Jacobs. I love Battlestar Galactica and I am disappointed with the new Flash Gordon on scifi channel.
Even though I would be bummed with no gnomes in the PHB 4e, I am more Optimistic about 4e than ever before.
It's like the SciFi Channel's Battlestar Galactica of RPGs. That might be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how WotC handles it and what your tastes are, but let's not make the mistake of thinking it's still the same game.This is an excellent point. To carry it a little further... I hope 4th edition is a Battlestar Galactica. I'm worried it'll be a Flash Gordon.
I worry about this quite a lot myself. Flash Gordon, so far, is just really really bad.
But Battlestar Galactica, at least what I've seen of it, has been stellar. I wish they could convince me that they would attain that quality.
- Ashavan
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It's like the SciFi Channel's Battlestar Galactica of RPGs. That might be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how WotC handles it and what your tastes are, but let's not make the mistake of thinking it's still the same game.
I guess I am struggling with this idea. I agree with you totally but a part of me wishes it wasn't true. 4e could be a fantastic game, I cannot deny that. I can admit some of the things I have heard have really interested me while others have made me extremely wary.
Recently I sat my players down with all the info provided by ENWorld and let them look it over. The players who have been with the game less than two years really liked what they saw. The players who had been with the game for more than that seemed slightly put off but willing to hear more. I am the most experienced in my group, having played for over 23 years, and I am interested but cautious. So maybe WotC has it right. I don't know. That remains to be seen.
But since it does seem things are changing and nothing can be done to stop that I hope what we get is a killer re-interpretation.
I guess I am struggling with this idea.
I think most people who've played this game for any length of time are struggling with it as well. 4E will be the first major revision of the game not just mechanically but conceptually since it was created. For some people, that's an exhilirating thing. For others, it's a source of consternation and even anger. I can completely understand why WotC has chosen to take this approach, even as I disagree with it vehemently. But, as I said, the die has been cast and there's really nothing we can do to stop 4E or change its direction.
Me, I'm resolved to sticking with v.3.5 with various house rules and modifications to make it suit me and my preferred playing style. With the publication of the Rules Compendium, my days of buying official D&D products is over. I'm a little saddened by that, since I've been enjoying this hobby since I was a boy, but such is life. I realize there's not much of a market for guys like me and I wish all those companies that choose to convert to 4E every success in supporting this new D&D. They'll have to succeed without me, though.
Um, guys, gnomes are going to be in the first Monster Manual!not the point
Quite so. For me, dropping out gnomes from PHB is a signal that probably the rest of the modifications are made to the direction I am not interested in. Go ahead, put the bloody drow as core character with ranger as favored class and bonus to wielding two scimitars.
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It's like the SciFi Channel's Battlestar Galactica of RPGs. That might be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how WotC handles it and what your tastes are, but let's not make the mistake of thinking it's still the same game.This is an excellent point. To carry it a little further... I hope 4th edition is a Battlestar Galactica. I'm worried it'll be a Flash Gordon.
Well, if 4e is a BS Galactica, I'm out. *shudders*
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Um, guys, gnomes are going to be in the first Monster Manual!
not the point
Quite so. For me, dropping out gnomes from PHB is a signal that probably the rest of the modifications are made to the direction I am not interested in.
I agree; not because I'm a huge fan of gnomes, but because apparently, according to WotC, monsters will no longer be described in the same game terms as PCs.
I forget where this was written, and I'm at work, so I'm not going trawling all around the web looking for the link, but I definitely recall that being said, and was very disheartened. If anyone else can find a link, I'd be grateful.
Describing monsters in the same 'language' as PCs, with ability scores, feats, skills, etc was one of the best things about 3rd Edition, ending many debates about how strong, fast, clever a monster was, and ending the situation of having spells which were only used against PCs (such as Ray of Enfeeblement, etc.
Many times, in previous editions, someone would try to wrestle an orc, or quick-draw on a goblin, and the game would stop, while we debated it's Strength or Dex score. 3E (in 2000) finally brought the game into the 1980's, since Chaosium had been doing this in RQ and CoC for years.
I fear the monsters now will be described in terms of their pre-determined actions during combat..."On round 1, it will attack at +X for XdX damage; on round 2 it will cast Y; when dropped below half hp, it will rage, etc", which is of absolutely no use or interest to me. I'll decide what my creatures do, thank you very much. If you want to include typical, or potential tactics, fine, but they should be part of the flavour text, to be used or amended, not set in stone.
Well, if 4e is a BS Galactica, I'm out. *shudders*
Thank you. I was afraid I was alone in that.
So what you are saying is that nobody in your group will purchase a MM that you can borrow while making a character?Um, guys, gnomes are going to be in the first Monster Manual!Yes, but not in the Player's Handbook. Which means for those who only buy the Player's Handbook (like most of my friends since they never DM) there won't be any gnomes.
So does this mean we have to buy MORE than the phb to get to play characters that previously only needed the phb?
If tieflings were only included because someone saw them as cool does this mean each additional MM or PHB will be needed because of something they deliberately left out so they could make sure they would sell?
Sorry if this has already come up but has there been enough released yet to even make such a decision?
Has part 2 of this campaign been released yet?
If tieflings were only included because someone saw them as cool does this mean each additional MM or PHB will be needed because of something they deliberately left out so they could make sure they would sell?
Well hate to burst your bubble, but WoTC has already confirmed that not all of the classic monsters will be in MM1. They will be spread out between MM2, MM3, MM?. THe frost giant is the most cited example of a classic monster we know will not be in MM1. Look at the list of miniatures from the Deserts of desolation series just released. All of the monsters in Deserts of Desolation will be in the new MM1 with the exception of 1 (most people theorize that the "1" will be the fire elemental). There are a bunch of monsters on the list that were not in the original 3rd Monster manual, and for every new guy being included, thats one of the old school classics being bumped to another product.
Sadly, I hate the idea of not getting all the classic dragons and giants in the same book, but from a marketing perspecitive it makes sense. For example, perhaps if you wanted red, green and black dragons you would buy MM1, But if you also wanted blue, white and silver, you'd have to buy MM2 the following year as well.
---the Osquip--
Oh and for your contemplative pleasure, here's the list of "monsters" appearing in teh deserts of Desolation miniature set. its been confirmed that all but 1 will be in the 4th edition MM1, but which one is the "1" is unknown. Oh and I pulled all the Players handbook races out of the list (so no tieflings, humans, dwarves, etc even though there are dwarf minies etc.)
Angel of Vengeance
Animated Statue (Animated Object)
Astral Stalker
Bar-Lgura
Black Woods Dryad
Blade Spider
Boneshard Skeleton (known to be in the MM I)
Copper Dragon
Cyclops (known to be in the MM I)
Demonweb Swarm
Drider
Ettercap Webspinner
Feral Troll
Fire Archon
Flame Snake
Gelatinous Cube
Guardian Mummy
Large Fire Elemental
Macetail Behemoth
Manticore Sniper
Naga
Nightmare
Ogre Brute
Osyluth
Rage Drake
Ravenous Ghoul
Rot Scarab Swarm
Sahuagin
Sahuagin Baron
Shadow Mastiff
Shakar-Kai Assassin
Shrieking Harpy
Sphinx
Spined Devil
Thundertusk Boar
Umber Hulk Delver
Visejaw Crocodile
Warhorse
Werewolf Champion
Yuan-Ti Malison
Yuan-Ti Champion of Zehir
Well hate to burst your bubble, but WoTC has already confirmed that not all of the classic monsters will be in MM1. They will be spread out between MM2, MM3, MM?. THe frost giant is the most cited example of a classic monster we know will not be in MM1. Look at the list of miniatures from the Deserts of desolation series just released. All of the monsters in Deserts of Desolation will be in the new MM1 with the exception of 1 (most people theorize that the "1" will be the fire elemental). There are a bunch of monsters on the list that were not in the original 3rd Monster manual, and for every new guy being included, thats one of the old school classics being bumped to another product.Sadly, I hate the idea of not getting all the classic dragons and giants in the same book, but from a marketing perspecitive it makes sense. For example, perhaps if you wanted red, green and black dragons you would buy MM1, But if you also wanted blue, white and silver, you'd have to buy MM2 the following year as well.
Hmm, I can't help wondering what would have happened if they went back and di the original style ie: a basic set for going from 1st to say 5th and so on... I know it doesn't mesh with what they've said but at least we'd actually have some idea what to expect.
[quote=]---the Osquip--
Oh and for your contemplative pleasure, here's the list of "monsters" appearing in teh deserts of Desolation miniature set. its been confirmed that all but 1 will be in the 4th edition MM1, but which one is the "1" is unknown. Oh and I pulled all the Players handbook races out of the list (so no tieflings, humans, dwarves, etc even though there are dwarf minies etc.)Angel of Vengeance
Animated Statue (Animated Object)
Astral Stalker
Bar-Lgura
Black Woods Dryad
Blade Spider
Boneshard Skeleton (known to be in the MM I)
Copper Dragon
Cyclops (known to be in the MM I)
Demonweb Swarm
Drider
Ettercap Webspinner
Feral Troll
Fire Archon
Flame Snake
Gelatinous Cube
Guardian Mummy
Large Fire Elemental
Macetail Behemoth
Manticore...
Much obliged, would really like to get hold of a cyclops miniature or the Gelatinous Cube, can't help wondering what the Angel of vengeance is or the Animated Statue... so many choices...
I bet there are lots of Hamsters!and pvc tubing
I gotta be honest. I don't actually care one way or the other about gnomes, but a fair chunk of my group have been complaining that there's no need for both gnomes and halflings as core races for years.
That's why there haven't been halflings in my campaign world since 1E (except for a brief error in the Under Illefarn module, but the 2E lightning bolt spell took that care of *that* little problem quite handily...gotta love them ricochets!). And gnomes have been fae in my world (as are elves) since 2E. And centaurs.
Of course, I have this terrible, unreasoning loathing of halflings for some reason. Inexplicable as far as I can tell.