I've hit a snag in creating my newest PC. He is a Thri-Kreen Soulknife.
I plan on him using two of his four arms to grapple and pin opponents, then materialize his mind blade(s) and attack them unhindered with his remaining arms.
That's the plan. But, there is nothing in the PHB about grappling/pinning with more than two arms. (PHB pg. 156-157)
A couple of his feats so far:
- multi-weapon fighting (MM) - allowing him extra attacks and the use of his arms in combat
- improved unarmed strike and improved grapple - so he can initiate grapples without AoOs
My questions are:
- Should my PC get a bonus to his grapple due to his multiple arms? And if so, what?
- Once he pins an opponent, shouldn't he be able to use his two free arms to attack freely? The opponent is pinned after all.
- If he can attack his opponent like this, would he have the -4 penalty to attacking while in a grapple? Those arms are free and unhindered afterall.
Thoughts? Ideas?
-Kurocyn
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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You need one hand free to grapple. You can only make one light weapon or natural attack no matter how many you have. Multiple limbs in and of themselves don't grant a bonus for grappling. You have limited options while pinning. It's all in the grapple section.
A perfect example is the Xill. It has 4 claws but not bonus it's grapple check (but it does have Improved Grab). The Marilith also does not get a bonus for having 6 arms.
--Got you in a head-Vrock!
You need one hand free to grapple. You can only make one light weapon or natural attack no matter how many you have. Multiple limbs in and of themselves don't grant a bonus for grappling. You have limited options while pinning. It's all in the grapple section.
A perfect example is the Xill. It has 4 claws but not bonus it's grapple check (but it does have Improved Grab). The Marilith also does not get a bonus for having 6 arms.
--Got you in a head-Vrock!
I know that the books don't say anything about having extra options/bonuses for having multiple arms, but it doesn't say anything agaisnt it either.
I just don't see how someone with four arms is limited to grappling/pinning the same way as someone with only two. Heck, by the rules, a one armed man can grapple just as well as a four armed Thri-Kreen. That makes about as mush sense as psionic half giants.
I'm going to run all of this by my group and see if we can agree on a house rule. My initial thought is working it into a new feat...
Multi-limb Grappler
Prerequisites: Dex 15, three or more hands, Multiweapon Fighting or Multiattack
Benefits: +4 on grapple checks against opponents with fewer hands than you. If you have more hands than your opponent, and you successfully pin them, you may attack them once per hand than you have more than your opponent. The attacks are counted as off-hand/secondary attacks for determining bonuses and pentalties. You must have as many free hands as your opponent has hands to attack them during the pin. Example - A Marilith (6 arms) has pinned a human (2 arms). The Marilith may attack the human four times during the pin.
Thoughts?
-Kurocyn
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I think that the biggest issue with this is just that you are adding more complexity to something that is already one of the more misunderstood parts of the game.
Rules like this seem to be left out because its pretty impossible to make them encompass every situation. For example, your house rule covers your four armed character vs two armed characters(and I do note that you made sure to include that it only works if you have more arms then they do, so a marilith would be able to take the same bonus on you)
However I would think that if more arms are an advantage that a six armed character would have an even greater one over two armed kind. I could see this turning into something of a size modifier that increases as the number of arms goes up.
On the other side of things, this doesn't take into account creatures that don't use hands for grappling. A bulette can pull you into its mouth, a pitfiend can curl its tail around you, and an gelatinous cube just doesn't have hands at all.
Grappling between characters may mean rolling around on the ground and punching each other when you can, but the rules have to account for any sort of combat that brings you in so close your movement is restricted.
I think that the biggest issue with this is just that you are adding more complexity to something that is already one of the more misunderstood parts of the game.
Rules like this seem to be left out because its pretty impossible to make them encompass every situation. For example, your house rule covers your four armed character vs two armed characters(and I do note that you made sure to include that it only works if you have more arms then they do, so a marilith would be able to take the same bonus on you)
Though I do agree grappling is rather complicated and quite often overlooked, this PC will focus on using grappling so I'm going to make sure I fully understand the rules and can easily explain them should my group not know them.
However I would think that if more arms are an advantage that a six armed character would have an even greater one over two armed kind. I could see this turning into something of a size modifier that increases as the number of arms goes up.
Good point. Perhaps having the feat grant a base +2 bonus with additional +1 bonus per arm that you have more than your opponent. That way, a Thri-Kreen has a +4 over a human, a Marilith a +6 over a human, and a +4 over the Thri-Kreen. Thoughts?
On the other side of things, this doesn't take into account creatures that don't use hands for grappling. A bulette can pull you into its mouth, a pitfiend can curl its tail around you, and an gelatinous cube just doesn't have hands at all.
Another good point. In a grapple against an opponent using an "unusual" means of grappling (i.e. tail, slime, mouth, constricting, etc...), the feat would only grant the initial +2 bonus, nothing more...
Grappling between characters may mean rolling around on the ground and punching each other when you can, but the rules have to account for any sort of combat that brings you in so close your movement is restricted.
Very true, thank you for the input.
Multi-limb Grappler 2.0
Prerequisites: Dex 15, three or more hands, Multiweapon Fighting or Multiattack
Benefits: You gain +2 on grapple checks plus an additional +1 per hand you have more than your opponent. If you have more hands than your opponent, and you successfully pin them, you may attack them once per hand than you have more than your opponent. The attacks are counted as off-hand/secondary attacks for determining bonuses and pentalties. You must have as many free hands as your opponent has hands to attack them during the pin. Against opponents using their mouth/ tail/ slime/ constriction/ etc. instead of arms to grapple, you only gain the initial +2 bonus.
Example - A Marilith (6 arms) has pinned a human (2 arms). The Marilith may attack the human four times during the pin.
-Kurocyn
I know that the books don't say anything about having extra options/bonuses for having multiple arms, but it doesn't say anything agaisnt it either.
It also doesn't say anything about the elven racial ability to use meteor swarm as a supernatural ability, at will. Oh, right, it doesn't exist.
Sorry if that was too snide, but if a bonus like this existed, the book would say it. It doesn't. It doesn't even begin to hint that multiple limbs aid in a grapple. Therefore, they don't. Look to the already-cited marilith and xill, or girallon, or a number of other multi-limbed creatures (including the thri-kreen). If they got a bonus due to multiple arms, it would be listed. It isn't. They don't.
As was already mentioned, there's more to grappling than just grabbing someone with your hands. Grappling represents any form of combat in which the opponents are in continual contact and trying to exert some force through this contact on each other. It's up to the imagination of and description given by the DM for further resolution.
Of course, if you want to make a feat, as you've proposed, or your DM even wants to house rule a change in the mechanic universally, that's completely fine. But the above is the RAW. All I advocate is awareness of it and taking it into account when considering changes.
As far as using weapons unhindered simply because you have more arms, I would approach the issue first from game design and balance (sicne I try to avoid making a reality simulation out of D&D, which it is very poorly suited to do). That isn't RAW, and would probably be more of a hassle to remember for the few times it came up than it could possibly be worth. But that's just my opinion. However, I could also argue it on a more "realistic" approach; simply because you have more arms doesn't mean you can use them effectively in a grapple. If anything, the space has become more cluttered, harder to find room to use a weapon in.
But again, what changes you make are up to you. I wouldn't be in favor of it, however. But then, my opinion on the matter is 1) just that and 2) will have no bearing on your game at all. :)
Sorry. I guess I should note that I do like the game to be as realistic as I can get it, though I know there are numerous aspects that will never be so.
And as of yet, everyone in my group likes the new feat and its workings. I was simply wanting to refine my idea through imput from those on Paizo.
...simply because you have more arms doesn't mean you can use them effectively in a grapple. If anything, the space has become more cluttered, harder to find room to use a weapon in.
Maybe you should use a concentration check. Oh wait, doesn't exsist anymore. It's spellcraft for you now...
-Kurocyn
Sorry. I guess I should note that I do like the game to be as realistic as I can get it, though I know there are numerous aspects that will never be so.
And as of yet, everyone in my group likes the new feat and its workings. I was simply wanting to refine my idea through imput from those on Paizo.
...simply because you have more arms doesn't mean you can use them effectively in a grapple. If anything, the space has become more cluttered, harder to find room to use a weapon in.Maybe you should use a concentration check. Oh wait, doesn't exsist anymore. It's spellcraft for you now...
-Kurocyn
Player: Uhm, can my barbarian focus really hard and pull this off?
Me: Only if you know the nuances of casting a fireball, meat shield.
:P
I admit I kinda skipped the meat of the thread, but to the OP:
You're looking for Multigrab and Improved Multigrab from Savage Species. First reduces the penalty for grappling with only one limb to -10 from -20, the other removes the remaining -10.
If you conduct a grapple with only the limb you used to start it, you are not considered grappled, but your enemy is. Thus, you still threaten squares around you, including your own (which means you threaten your grappled foe), and your foe still loses his dex to anyone outside the grapple, which you are because you are not considered grappling. Thus, sneak attack away.
There is little problem with this combo being game breaking. Reasons include:
A: It requires 2 to 3 feats to pull off well, possibly even more. Multigrab, Imp. Multigrab, and possibly Imp. Grapple if Imp. Grab is not a racial ability. Then Multiweapon Fighting tree to get a sexy full attack against grappled foe.
B: Sneak attack only functions against roughly 60% of the commonly encountered monsters. Granted, methods exist to overcome that, but those methods still require expenditures of resources (money, feats, levels).
C: Non-extra limbed races don't need the multiweapon fighting, but nothing says loving like jamming 9 attacks into your enemy than only 3. (Figuring 20th level rogue equivalent.)
Hope that helps!
...and should simply be Improved Grapple for a +4 bonus and no AoO regardless of limbs, with Improved Unarmed Attack as a pre-req.
As stated in the OP, he already has these. I may even incorporate them into the prerequisites for my new feat, as the idea is that this feat represents advanced grappling training using a greater number of arms.
Consider the following case (in problem solving the use of extreme examples to find possible flaws in an arguement is a useful technique):
1) Ogre vs. Small Monstrous Centipede - A monstrous centipede crawls up an ogre's leg and latches on with its dozens of limbs. The ogre reaches down with both hands and rips it from his thigh and tosses it aside.
My apologizes for not stating the obvious. I said earlier that I focus on realism. Why on earth would anyone even consider this? Even as an example, this is pointless.
I do thank you for reminding me about how the feat should work with different size categories, but seriously...
Larger creatures already have a bonus in grapples against smaller creatures, and I see this feat still providing the grapple bonus against even larger creatures, just not the attacks.
In the case of your Thri-kreen, perhaps his Improved Graple technique is based upon the use of multiple limbs while an elven style may focus on dexterity (like jujutsu) to improve wrestling ability but now it's a matter for RP and not mechanics.
In reference to an earlier post, a one-armed man with improved grapple is just as effective as a Thri-Kreen with the same feat using this idea.
Besides, I've worked this into an additional feat for multi-armed creatures representing their combating opponents with fewer arms. There is extra training involved, so where's the problem?
-Kurocyn
You're looking for Multigrab and Improved Multigrab from Savage Species......Hope that helps!
I've didn't even know about these feats. (nobody in my group has SS) I like the feel of these, but really I see my PC using two of his arms to hold down his opponent, then attacking with his two free arms.
Thank you for the post, I will definitely look into it.
-Kurocyn
Glad to help. Regarding the style of it, just say your using both upper arms, and then just use the two lower ones to attack.
A self-imposed mechanical limitation for the sake of stylishness when, by the rules, you could be landing at least one if not more attacks in?
If your DM has a problem with that, I don't know what to tell you. Well, I do, its just not polite to say.
The ability to grapple with only the limb that started it is an oft missed part of grapple that is very fun and effective, on both sides of the DM screen. Use it with those big monsters that have the ridiculously good grapple scores, all of a sudden the grappling isn't so depressingly one sided (makes PCs feel better), but the monster can still threaten the rest (makes DM feel better). Kraken's do this really well, t-rex's can but it makes little sense since they only have a bite attack, but dragons can do some funny stuff with this, considering they can fly and have awesome carrying capacity.
And remember, take the feats, and you too can be a 6th level rogue with the ability to clothesline a charging orc from concealment, and snap his neck before he knows what happened! (Attack of Op, establish grapple, win initiative, sneak attack.)
I just checked the PHB and I can't find anything about grappling with just one hand. Is that in the SS?
Rezdave, I know that D&D is far from realistic and I'm not trying to make it so. I do however try to enhance what parts I can, usually I do this while acting as DM, but as a player, all I have to work with is my PC.
I made a character who specializes in grappling, so I looked into it and came up with this feat. And so far, everyone in my group finds it to be realistic and likes the idea.
I'm not designing a feat for Wizards. So again, why on earth would this situation ever come up, let alone be handled in such a way? When unusual situations arise, my group decides as a group on what we think is most reasonable.
Designing a feat with every min-maxed, power-gaming possibility in mind is a job for the guys at Wizards. Heck, you even seem pretty good at it.
When I design new feats/items/etc, I look at it from how my group is most likely going to interact with it and cover the most likely situations. We can deal with anomalies when they come around.
Multi-limb Grappler 3.0
Prerequisites: Dex 15, three or more hands, Improved Unarmed strike, Improved Grapple, and Multiweapon Fighting or Multiattack
Benefits: You gain +2 on grapple checks plus an additional +1 per hand you have more than your opponent. If you have more hands than your opponent, and you successfully pin them, you may attack them once per hand than you have more than your opponent. The attacks are counted as off-hand/secondary attacks for determining bonuses and pentalties. You must have as many free hands as your opponent has hands to attack them during the pin as these hands are used to hold the pin and cannot perform any other actions. Against opponents using their mouth/ tail/ slime/ constriction/ etc. instead of arms to grapple, you only gain the initial +2 bonus. Agaisnt opponents one or more size categories larger than you, you do not gain the attacks.
I went ahead and increased the prerequisites, touched on the hands maintaining the pin, and covered differing size categories.
-Kurocyn
Personally, I'm not the best at the game, I've just been good at making a character I love and working well with dice to turn unadvantages situations against the enemy, but I don't personally see a problem with this..
I can understand all view points on the subject, but grappling isn't always tussling on the ground... sometimes it's grabbing someone's hand and getting a cheap shot or two in.
I just think it's right for certain scenarios, I mean if he's grapling someone after a tackle, then it might be harder to strike with the other limbs, but if he pins (maybe even sitting on the opponent crossing their arms over the chest with two arms) then why not be able to wail on them with the other limbs? I think it could even apply in that situation with say a tail (hold them down and start stabbing with a tail for instance) I just think it's odd to get this worked up over something, I can appreciate and admire the passion you all have towards the game, but some people like it to be alittle more realistic, and others love more fantastic views...
I just don't see a problem myself, heck I'd be glad to pit Mamoru against this guy, he might beat me in a grapple, but I figure the dice do all the talking anyways, so not everyone rolls perfect all the time. ^^() well that's my two cents take it with a grain of salt.
For reasons why there is an issue with the feat:
1. Grapple is a pretty raw opposed roll, with few modifiers to it (more than say, Trip, though). Improved Grapple alone is usually enough to virtually guarantee success against an otherwise equal opponent (about 71% of the time on each roll).
2. You grant a bonus for using the extra arms in the grapple, and then consider the extra arms as "free" to make attacks. It should be one or the other in my opinion.
I'd suggest trying the system as it is first, but if you do go ahead with the feat, I would make it simply +1 per arm over 2 (no +2) against any/most opponents (even others with add'l arms), OR that bonus disappears for the add'l attacks.
I can understand all view points on the subject, but grappling isn't always tussling on the ground... sometimes it's grabbing someone's hand and getting a cheap shot or two in. I just think it's right for certain scenarios, I mean if he's grapling someone after a tackle, then it might be harder to strike with the other limbs, but if he pins (maybe even sitting on the opponent crossing their arms over the chest with two arms) then why not be able to wail on them with the other limbs? I think it could even apply in that situation with say a tail (hold them down and start stabbing with a tail for instance)
Except that the game has no way to distinquish a "tackle" from any other type of grapple. That would rely on pure description. Likewise, one could take Improved Grapple and simply describe it as proficiency in grappling with his other two arms. Likewise, there are already creature out there (marilith, xill, dragons) who do, in fact, have multiple limbs and tails, none of which get an additional bonus to grappling for it. There are many times in the game when additional factors, outside of the mechanics, apply to a situation within the consistency of the game. However, they are just that: outside the mechanics, excluded, left out for simplicity, speed of play, and balance. That's just the name of the beast we're dealing with.
Now, in this particular case, the OP doesn't plan on this feat ever being used for anything but his own character, and so, to a certain extent, many balance issues which would otherwise need to be taken into account don't apply.
I just think it's odd to get this worked up over something,
Not to harp overly much, but I wouldn't really call this thread an example of "getting worked up." When one comes to Paizo and asks about a feat like this, one should expect the type of reply found in this thread. First, it's a reasoned and expanded look at the rule. Second, there wouldn't be much to say but "Ya, sounds cool," or "No, that's dumb!" if we didn't appeal to these approaches. That doesn't serve to educate anyone about anything. Now, a poster can simply state that he doesn't care about the opinions others have expressed over an idea and is going to employ it in his game, regardless. But that then might cause others to question why the idea was posted in the first place. Note: this isn't aimed at this thread in particular, but is merely a tangental thought)
I can appreciate and admire the passion you all have towards the game, but some people like it to be alittle more realistic, and others love more fantastic views...
Not to nitpick, but I can't really even begin to see how this falls into that continuum. I take it this feat is on the realism side? What's the "fantasy" counter to it? I think a better terminology, for future use in situations like this, would be "realism vs. design," with design representing such factors as balance, speed of play, etc.