I was just going over the stats for Malcanthet form Dragon #353 (and Dungeon #149), when I noticed something strange. Her write-up in Fiendish Codex I has her at 25 HD with 412 hp, with a Con of 34, which checks out fine with averaged rolls. The improved stats give her 33 HD and a Con of 36, yet still she is listed in both magazines as having 429 hp only. That seems odd. In fact, 429 is only the part of her hit points from her Con bonus (33 * +13). She is missing her 33 Rolls of a d8, which, at averaged rolls, comes out at 168, giving her a corrected total of 577 hp.
I never follow given hit points for creatures and I do not follow with the idea that all creatures in the universe with the exception of pc should use a eight sided die for hps; for my game, I set hit dice dependant on size; the larger the mob the larger the hit die and the reverse is true also. I have found this works pretty well giving me the right content of easier and tuffer combats in my game. I have additional homegame rules such as; to represent the pc as heroes and a cut above others; all heroes have max hit points; meaning pc's have max hit points and so do npc boss types. I have found that this gives the pc's more staying power against minor fights that while contribute to the story are not the deciding factor in the plot line and in climatic fights both sides have enough staying power to enact various powers and tactics rather than having a fluke battle.
Heroes should be tuff; a cut above the caliber of those around them; it seems a bit silly to me to have a boss type whose followers are tuffer than he is if he is evil where he with the greatest applied power rules.
The whole average hit points given in the books is a bit lazy from my perspective; if you have a group of bad guys; some should be stronger and some tuffer than others in the group; they are not clones; if you doing attack of the clones; well, sure, make all their hit points the same. I have found that in my group; pc's appreciate sometimes getting the weak one or the tuff one in a group and they know that the hero is going to be a step above the tuff one, this helps them prepare.
how hit points and armor class are handled as a game mechanic is crucial to the game; I recommend you do some tests and develop clear reasoning behind any hit point change then explain how the changes are going to be enacted in your game rather than just taking the hps as given from the book. If your a fairly new gm, that is ok, but try to keep some of this stuff in the back of your mind to dwell on and remember that the book itself says that each creature in a given book is the represented there as the weakest of their type. If your pc's are also the weakest of their type, and some gms do play with pc's this way, they it is entirely appropriate that your monsters be weak also as it is all relative to each world. I am pretty sure they adjust the hps of each monster given in publication to be in line with other creatures rather than following the math straight per a formula.
Thanks for pointing that out. She is definitely short a lot of hit points.
I must admit that I am tempted to consider the versions of Malcanthet, Orcus and Demogorgon in STAP as deities.
Perhaps they should be given the benefit of maximum hit points like all deities get.
Of course that would take Demogorgon to 962 HP :)
Valegrim, I think you misunderstand me. I was merely pointing out, that according to the way hit points are usually calculated for creatures in Dungeon adventures, Malcanthet's hp total is wrong.
That has nothing to do with how I treat enemy hp totals in my games. I know how to tailor those to my groups well enough. I'm not a new DM, in fact I've been a DM for more than 20 years. :-) Still, thanks for your thoughts!
yep; sorry; didnt mean to do that, but the hp discussion has been barely scratched in the last couple years; I didnt realize until my last paragraph there that you were only pointing out that the math formula doesnt make sense, I agree and your right and it is good that you pointed it out, was just kinda hoping someone might want to discuss hit points in general, but dont wanna thread hijack; was just testing the waters to see if there was interest in starting a thread dedicated to it, sorry bout dat. <puts away his soapbox with a look of chargin and bit o blush>
Thanks for pointing that out. She is definitely short a lot of hit points.
I must admit that I am tempted to consider the versions of Malcanthet, Orcus and Demogorgon in STAP as deities.
Perhaps they should be given the benefit of maximum hit points like all deities get.
Of course that would take Demogorgon to 962 HP :)
^_^ 8th Pagan, they don't need no steekin' divine ranks ... I have players already mewling about how tough he is ... and of course I remember full well who has 'snuck a peak' and been dumb enough to mewl about it ... nyuk nyuk ...
Umm, in other words, I wholeheartedly encourage you to full-out maximize ol' two-faces' hit points. And his little dog's too ... (Whomever you have Demogorgon summon into the chamber to play patty-face with.)
Creative Director
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I was just going over the stats for Malcanthet form Dragon #353 (and Dungeon #149), when I noticed something strange. Her write-up in Fiendish Codex I has her at 25 HD with 412 hp, with a Con of 34, which checks out fine with averaged rolls. The improved stats give her 33 HD and a Con of 36, yet still she is listed in both magazines as having 429 hp only. That seems odd. In fact, 429 is only the part of her hit points from her Con bonus (33 * +13). She is missing her 33 Rolls of a d8, which, at averaged rolls, comes out at 168, giving her a corrected total of 577 hp.
Hmmm. Yes, Malcanthet's hp are indeed off; she should have 577 hp, which is average hit points for a creature with 33d8+429 HD. Of course, even at 412 hp, she probably doesn't have much to worry about from 20th level PCs, but an extra 148 hit points never hurt any demon lord!
I was just going over the stats for Malcanthet form Dragon #353 (and Dungeon #149), when I noticed something strange. Her write-up in Fiendish Codex I has her at 25 HD with 412 hp, with a Con of 34, which checks out fine with averaged rolls. The improved stats give her 33 HD and a Con of 36, yet still she is listed in both magazines as having 429 hp only. That seems odd. In fact, 429 is only the part of her hit points from her Con bonus (33 * +13). She is missing her 33 Rolls of a d8, which, at averaged rolls, comes out at 168, giving her a corrected total of 577 hp.Hmmm. Yes, Malcanthet's hp are indeed off; she should have 577 hp, which is average hit points for a creature with 33d8+429 HD. Of course, even at 412 hp, she probably doesn't have much to worry about from 20th level PCs, but an extra 148 hit points never hurt any demon lord!
Actually, isn't that first HD maximized ? Or is that only for critters with class levels ? (Granted, I'll most likely have to maxx hers out at 629 against my player groups, but still ...)
Turin's made the point already...its Demogorgon...on his Home Plane! If they win, he is essentially (barring some other strangeness) dead permanently. Its also the culmination of the entire adventure path. Max him out! If the PCs don't come prepared for the absolute worst scenario possible when fighting Demogorgon, they don't deserve to lick the goo off his/its tentacles. Though they should even then still get bi!(#-slapped with it.
Hmmm. Yes, Malcanthet's hp are indeed off; she should have 577 hp, which is average hit points for a creature with 33d8+429 HD. Of course, even at 412 hp, she probably doesn't have much to worry about from 20th level PCs, but an extra 148 hit points never hurt any demon lord!
So, if Malcanthet does not have much to worry about against 20th level PC's, doesn't that imply that Demogorgon has even less to worry about with double her hit points?
You're not suggesting big D is there merely to end the campaign with a TPK are you? :)
My last TPK was in a Dark Matter campaign (Alternity version, great setting and book, but system a bit iffy at times) where they were wiped out by a.... greater demon.
Will history repeat itself?
I'm interested behind the dynamics for making their hit points less than they should be (if that is the case since I don't have the stats in front of me). Was it an oversight or a deliberate choice?
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I'm interested behind the dynamics for making their hit points less than they should be (if that is the case since I don't have the stats in front of me). Was it an oversight or a deliberate choice?
Malcanthet lossed all that weight (excess hp) on her hectic move crossing over from the Abyss to the Hells.
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Creative Director
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So, if Malcanthet does not have much to worry about against 20th level PC's, doesn't that imply that Demogorgon has even less to worry about with double her hit points?
You're not suggesting big D is there merely to end the campaign with a TPK are you? :)
My last TPK was in a Dark Matter campaign (Alternity version, great setting and book, but system a bit iffy at times) where they were wiped out by a.... greater demon.
Will history repeat itself?
If the PCs don't soften up Demogorgon before they have at him at the end of the campaign, yes, it'll probably be a TPK. That said, I and the adventure assume that the PCs DO manage to soften him up before they get to him by accomplishing all the other goals in the adventure, in which case he's still a tough monster, but not impossible.
If the PCs don't soften up Demogorgon before they have at him at the end of the campaign, yes, it'll probably be a TPK. That said, I and the adventure assume that the PCs DO manage to soften him up before they get to him by accomplishing all the other goals in the adventure, in which case he's still a tough monster, but not impossible.
I was not seriously suggesting you would create an adventure with TPK as the intent.
Just making the observation that if Malcanthet should not have trouble with a level 20 party, neither should Demogorgon, even if weakened seriously. At his weakest he has more HP that Malcanthet.
I guess I will find out when the players bump into him in a few months time.
Malcanthet lossed all that weight (excess hp) on her hectic move crossing over from the Abyss to the Hells.
Malcanthet has declined to accept the invitition to move her home from the Abyss to Hell. In my campaign she has anyway.
Actually, I heard Malcanthet's pretty excited about the change. The Abyss hasn't been a great place to work recently, you know, all those rounds of down-sizing. Morale's been really low. And here she gets this great offer to move over to the competitor, top pay, a company car, a better health care plan, some great vacation properties available at no cost to executives like her, not to mention those stock options...
Plus, her new contract specifically requires that every staff member in the position of Erinyes be terminated. That's not something the could have accomplished, staying with the original company.
(Besides, she's already seduced pretty much everyone at the old company. Time for her to start working with some new blood.)