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I'm about to begin running Savage Tide with eight (gulp) players. Yes, I know, I'm probably nuts. Any advice on how to scale the first adventure up for a party of this size? Should I simply double the amount of monsters that appear, and then double the hit points of the "bosses" that occur?
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I happen to have experience with that very thing. It's not as daunting as it sounds, the key is to keep things going smoothely, and for that you need a little extra organization.
As far as scaling the adventures for the challenge, there isn't a hard and fast rule I went by, in general.
For example, in the Lotus Dragon hideout, it was not necessary to double the number of theives. What I did do was increase the total number by about 10, and gave about half of them an extra rogue level. Beyond that, what I did was set them up, once the alarm had been raised, at natural chokepoints, with overturned tables as cover. As soon as the PC's opened the door, 3 rogues would take surprise rounds (unless the PC's made a difficult listen check at the door) to fire crossbows from behind an overturned table.
I then expanded the size of Rowyn's office, and had 5 rogues waiting down the secret passage for Gut Tugger to give a signal, at which point they charged out. I gave Rowyn one extra level of Bard, but the battle was still plenty tough because the party had to deal with a larger group than just she and GT. Of course, the party Mage ended up putting all 5 of the rogues to sleep, so that part was easier, but that was still effort expended on extras instead of the main bbeg. Plus they did each get an action first.
Another example, under parrot island, I only added 3 or 4 zombies total, but I had them showing up in bigger groups. And I had the huecuva show up with 6 or 7 with him, so that was a NASTY battle. If they hadn't found that silver dagger already, they would have had a REAL hard time damaging it.
Sometimes you add extra bad guys. Sometimes it's better to give other extenuating circumstances (cover, better planning, etc). Sometimes you add a trap. Sometimes you add a few HD or levels to something. Sometimes you use the same number of bad guys, but instead of 4 groups of 5, you use 2 groups of 10. Just judge on a case by case basis. After a few nights, you'll get a pretty good feel of what your party can handle.
And if you do somehow feel like you overdone it, you can always use your DM perogative to fudge a few numbers in the battle as a last resort. Beats a TPK (**unless of course they EARNED one through stupidity or just plain lousy dice**)
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If you start scaling, you will need to continue scaling for most of the path. Let them have an easier time at first, they split the limited XP equally and go up in levels slower. By 3rd or 4th level of running with no changes they will be right at the proper level for the modules. D&D 3.5 is a self-correcting system of advancement, if you give them more things to kill they get more XP, and you need to keep adjusting to keep up. If you were running a one shot I would say to adjust, but not for a campaign. By the time you complete "There is No Honor" they will have almost completely auto-adjusted to make the encounters balanced (and besides some encounters are down right HARD!).
I would, however, pull no punches and play the Baddies smartly, Especially in the first encounters.
I'm, not surprisingly, in agreement with Fake Healer.
That said I would be looking at roughly 1 encounter in 4 in the first few adventures and I'd beef them up a bit just to give the players a few higher challenge encounters in the early going. It'll slow down the self balancing aspect of the game a little but might make the adventures more exciting. I'd consider that a worth while trade off.
If you do go this route I'd probably let your players know in advance. Large groups should emphasize slightly different aspects when adventuring compared to small groups. Team work is very important - you have a lot of somewhat weaker characters. You have to work together to compensate. That makes getting things like flanking bonuses and performing mob rushes more potent where as going head to head all alone against a powerful monster is way more dangerous - make sure to cover a hurt team mate because your all a bit weaker and players will be in more danger. So your going to have to work together so that a badly hurt member can pull out of the line and be replaced by another player.
Try not to over emphasize one class just because you have a lot of players. 1 mage, 1 cleric, 1 rogue and 5 martial players is a lot less effective then a party with a couple of martial players a couple of mages and a couple of clerics. There is room in such a large party to go a bit off the beaten path but keep some semblance of balance within the ranks. Your going to be about 3 levels behind eventually and you'll probably want to compensate with more mages and clerics blasting away with their spells each round because on average each individual spell will be weaker.
Play a little more defensively. The tendency with players, it seems, is to concentrate on the offensive with uber potent swords and such but the uber potent sword won't really exist - your dividing the gold around a little bit to much for any single player to make the sword of ultimate doom. In this case in particular items that raise your hps, AC and maybe especially saving throws are going to be well worth the price tag. Your offensive punch comes more from multiple people ganging up on the monsters then from a single attack of such power that it eliminates the monster right there.
A party of eight should be treated as if their average level is two higher than it is, going by the CR guidelines. The "Scaling the Adventure" sidebars should provide suggestions on how to increase the difficulty of the encounters. For TINH, you may want to increase the number of encounters or add side-quests instead of the increasing the difficulty. One thing you may need to do is to check the average value of equipment the characters have and add some magic items here and there to keep them at the suggested amounts.
If you start scaling, you will need to continue scaling for most of the path. Let them have an easier time at first, they split the limited XP equally and go up in levels slower. By 3rd or 4th level of running with no changes they will be right at the proper level for the modules. D&D 3.5 is a self-correcting system of advancement, if you give them more things to kill they get more XP, and you need to keep adjusting to keep up. If you were running a one shot I would say to adjust, but not for a campaign. By the time you complete "There is No Honor" they will have almost completely auto-adjusted to make the encounters balanced (and besides some encounters are down right HARD!).
I would, however, pull no punches and play the Baddies smartly, Especially in the first encounters.
I was thinking about this. Really there are two approaches - scale things in accordance to the increased CR the larger group of PCs poses, or just let them play through the adventure as is until their slowed level advancement puts them on par with the harder encounters. What gives me pause about the latter approach is I wonder how many of the early combat encounters an eight-man team will just blow through. It may take the fun and challenge out of things.
I was thinking about this. Really there are two approaches - scale things in accordance to the increased CR the larger group of PCs poses, or just let them play through the adventure as is until their slowed level advancement puts them on par with the harder encounters. What gives me pause about the latter approach is I wonder how many of the early combat encounters an eight-man team will just blow through. It may take the fun and challenge out of things.
If the party consists of mostly melee and heavy firepower, the first set of encounters may need some scaling, or maybe just make their allies join combat a little earlier.
With a 'softer' party, you can probably get by with just bringing the allies in the combats ealier.
With regard to letting the natural XP pace take its course, I think that would work for the most part, but I might be a little concerned with the party being under-leveled when they encounter some of the really big Bosses.
I don't think I will let my party fall that far behind (they'll number 6), I throw in some side quests or something.
Cheers!
I think you should play the first couple of games as is and get a feel for how things really shape up. With that many players, things bog down quickly and everyone waits a long time to get an action. If the combat is de-emphasised in risk while the party learns to operate together, there will be less chance of getting it wrong. Take a few sessions of using the rules as written and you will be able to use your energy running such a large mob of gamers. Not spending energy remembering what changes you made will free up a lot of your bandwidth to figuring out just where all those damn characters are.
Try farming out some DM duties too. Get one character to set up maps, one to track initiative, one to run summons and one to keep a journal of NPCs and events. That will give them a reason to focus on the game during the half hour that you spend with other players.
I hope you come out of this with your sanity. Good luck.
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What Taliesin says is indeed vital. Delegate some of the gruntwork, and bribe them with xp for it. that way the guy who missed last week can be initiative monkey this week, get a cheap and easy 100xp, and go a little way towards catching back up with the rest.
What others say about leaving the adventures as is is an option, but it has its own problems too. One is that 8 lvl 3 characters is not the same as 4 lvl 5 characters. Some adventures are written with the express notion that the PC's will have certain abilities to finish a given adventure. Skill checks will be different, the mage won't have a fireball yet, saves will be weaker, etc. Also, a nasty monster thing (savage deieonychus, anyone) will easily rip through the one unlucky PC that get's pounced, whether the rest of the party can handle it or not.
Another thing to keep in mind is that if you choose to leave the magic items and treasure the same as in the book, each character will get less. 10,000gp of treasure divided 4 ways is nice; divided 8 ways it's a bit weaker. That could also be a balancing effect in your favor, although you don't want to overdo it. Players who feel like their characters are not being properly rewarded begin to question their motivation to continue adventuring with this sorry lot, especially those who are more "ethically challenged" than others. :)
Also, I don't like having the first few adventures be walkovers. It sets a tone for the rest of the campaign, and lets the characters get lazy and expect to walk through the whole thing. Bad idea for later on when they have their hands full. Plus people might get bored and leave the game before you have a chance to really let things get good.
I would boost the encounters at least some. Again, you don't always have to double the XP you're handing out. Use the same number of total bad guys, but in bigger concentrations. Re-organize encounters to maximize ouchiness. Add a hit die here and there. It will eventually balance out. YMMV.
Seriously, I'm not a super-experienced DM. I play a lot more than I run games. But I've not had a terrible amount of discomfort handling 8 players, and have gotten consistently good feedback from them about how the campaign is going. I don't know you, but I still think you can do this. The AP is good and well written, and there's a ton of help to be found here on the boards. Good luck!
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well, i have 7 PC's currently, with 3 NPC cohorts.
Combat, as you can imagine, gets quite intricate.
Things i have done:
1: Level the mooks up first. Don't start slapping on class levels (or HD increases) on the boss monsters, unless you want them to eat a few of the PC's. All it will really do is make it last another couple of rounds, probably offing (or seriously damaging) whichever PC gets targeted.
Minions, however, benefit from a couple of level bumps (or HD increases) almost geometrically. They are still only a minor hindrance (usually just eating up a few actions from a few characters), but will actually do SOMETHING, rather than just dying outright from Holy Word or some similar ability.
2: Don't be afraid of the mass combat situation. If they want to storm Golismorga the hard way, let them. When they have to make stacked-will-saves (oh, how about you 4 make 8 will saves each, you 4 make 5 each), or get mass-fired from Magic Missiles, they'll learn. At the least, you'll kill off a couple and the others may learn something.
3: Don't pull punches. This should go without saying, but in my experience many DM's will do things like ask what HP totals are like before choosing who gets attacked, using instant-death-effects less, and the like. With so many people assaulting the enemies, it's tantamount to suicide not to use your deadliest weapons right away.
4: Don't help them. If they forget they're immune to something, or should have done, say, favored enemy damage, don't remind them. That's their job, and they either remember or not. Don't tie up your energy trying to run their characters too.
5: Use the sidequests. The Legendary 7, The Brotherhood of Dire Hunger, Finishing off (or Rebuilding) the Lotus Dragons. These are all things my group is doing/has done/will do, and it gives them the necessary Exp to stay with the projected CR's, without too much "high-fatality-super-baddies" in the adventures. Without too much "me time" spent on advancing things too.
so, some demographics.
My group:
Rogue/Psion/Elocator/Avenger (scout/teleporter)
with Ardent Cohort (Lvl 15/13)
Ranger/Psion/Pyrokineticist/Extreme Explorer (fire/crafting)
with Wizard Cohort (Lvl 15/13)
Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor (healing/undead/Ship Captain)
with Ranger Cohort (Lvl 15/13)
Monk/Drunken Master (Grapples/Anti-magic/high damage output)
(Lvl 15)
Warblade (Damage/Damage/More Damage)
(Lvl 15)
Warmage (big boomer/Intimidate)
(Lvl 15)
Druid (Summons/Interparty Conflict)
(Lvl 13)
and they're about 2/3 of the way through Serpents of Scuttlecove
so, pretty much right on schedule as far as the exp goes, and spot on with regards to party wealth.
-the hamster
Another thing to keep in mind is that if you choose to leave the magic items and treasure the same as in the book, each character will get less. 10,000gp of treasure divided 4 ways is nice; divided 8 ways it's a bit weaker. That could also be a balancing effect in your favor, although you don't want to overdo it. Players who feel like their characters are not being properly rewarded begin to question their motivation to continue adventuring with this sorry lot, especially those who are more "ethically challenged" than others. :)
Because of how the table scales they will actually get more treasure then their wealth by level should be giving them at their level. Players dividing the treasure 8 ways should actually feel richer then their 4 member higher level compatriots. Essentially 2500 gp is not that big a deal for 7th level characters while 1250 is sweet phat loot for 4th level characters.
With regard to letting the natural XP pace take its course, I think that would work for the most part, but I might be a little concerned with the party being under-leveled when they encounter some of the really big Bosses.
I'd think this is always a bit of a concern hence the DM should know their bad guys just in case something in their will slaughter them but in some ways you've got to watch this with 4 characters as well and with less players around things can turn sour for a small group a lot faster then for a larger group.
The big end bosses further along in the campaign actually might be more of a problem the other way. 8 17th level characters are probably significantly more dangerous in combat then 4 20th level ones. Both 17th and 20th level characters can do awesome things on their turn but with 8 17th level characters going they get a phenomenal number of actions.
The big bad has to wait a long long time before its their turn again and the larger group is now working with tandem casting of 9th level spells. At this point there are a lot of high level casters around. Players doing tandem things like having mage#1 use wish to bring down spell resistance while mage#2 opens up with Otto's irresistible dance.
Brotherhood of Dire Hunger eh ?
The Infamous 7 ?
I must needs re-read about those, as I suspect that is where I shall be able to score some much-needed deceased PC's from my stubbornly not-dying player group.
Brotherhood of Dire Hunger eh ?
The Infamous 7 ?I must needs re-read about those, as I suspect that is where I shall be able to score some much-needed deceased PC's from my stubbornly not-dying player group.
** spoiler omitted **Brotherhood of Dire Hunger eh ?
The Infamous 7 ?I must needs re-read about those, as I suspect that is where I shall be able to score some much-needed deceased PC's from my stubbornly not-dying player group.
Most excellent Sben. Monks dubbed the Brotherhood of Dire Hunger ... sounds semi-Lovecraftian enough for me to thoroughly enjoy the task of statting those fellas up. And I always most enjoy thrashing my PC's with other PC's.
The 'Big Seven' will also be fun, and I'm quite sure my group will gun for them faster than they gun for a McTacoHut run...
Just to throw this into the mix, here's how the initial party is shaping up:
1. Duskblade
2. Druid
3. Swordsage
4. Cleric
5. Rogue
6. Barbarian
7. Wizard
With No. 8 yet to be decided.
I'm leaning more toward increasing the number of mooks the PCs encounter, and maybe even adding what I'll call "cannon fodder" to some of the boss fights to make them even.
For example, in the final fight:
What I like about this approach is by adding more monsters to the mix, the party's advancement will be on par to that originally intended. And with additional enemies - as opposed to letting the PCs go through everything as is - it's easy to increase treasure amounts to keep things balanced.
The cons of this approach that I can predict is that some combats are gonna be pretty time-consuming, especially if this party doesn't think and act like a team. If they do, they can be pretty damn well efficient, as they have almost every base covered.
The cons of this approach that I can predict is that some combats are gonna be pretty time-consuming, especially if this party doesn't think and act like a team. If they do, they can be pretty damn well efficient, as they have almost every base covered.
For you organization is going to be critical. Its easy to forget a monsters special ability of unusual defense at the best of times. With a lot more creatures in the combat your going to have to be at the top of your game because your running platoons of monsters against what amounts to a sports team. But the sports team has 8 minds to your 1.
When working on who to upgrade and why try to avoid the complex monsters. You want to be pumping up the simpler ones so far as is possible. This may be most difficult near the end when things like fiends come into play as fiends have a lot of abilities.
Make sure to make separate sheets for each powerful fiend and monsters like them. Its tempting to use just one monster sheet because they start off the same - thats a mistake, They will become different pretty quickly and you'll just add to the confusion if your trying to keep track of multiple complex monsters on one sheet of paper.
Also when upgrading there is a tendency to want to add a little spice here and there. Make the monsters a bit unique - usually this stems from a great idea that dawns on you when your sitting down to look at this. This can be fine but keep yourself focused on insuring that your in a position to effectively run these battles. With 8 players your under extreme pressure to do your turn efficiently because a each player can be waiting for almost a half hour for his turn to come around again, nothing worse then the DM causing a hold up. Try and keep things pretty simple with maybe 3 different types of monsters on the field at any one time. You might get away with 4 different types if their not to complicated but no more and maybe less is better if we are talking about monsters with a dozen special abilities or a spell caster.
Since your already upgrading take a look at feats and spells - I see your using a fair number of splat books - those splat books work both ways. Swift and immediate action spells and feats allow your big baddies to increase the number of actions he can perform, often doing actions in the middle of the players turn, this is important if they have managed to bypass (or are just ignoring) the mooks and mobbing the BBEG. I run with 7 players and they generally won't fight mooks instead they throw everything at the BBEG until its dead then they mop up the mooks. With a lot of players this is a potent tactic that can see a BBEG with a bad infinitive roll go down without ever getting an action. You've allowed a lot of books - make sure to use them yourself.
Jeremy, you make a good point about PCs ignoring the mooks and heading straight for the main baddie in front of them. That's going to be a challenge.
I'll definitely have to feel my way through much of this and see how the party works together and what they can handle. I appreciate all the feedback from the DMs who have done what I plan to do!
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Because of how the table scales they will actually get more treasure then their wealth by level should be giving them at their level. Players dividing the treasure 8 ways should actually feel richer then their 4 member higher level compatriots. Essentially 2500 gp is not that big a deal for 7th level characters while 1250 is sweet phat loot for 4th level characters.
My post was based on the assumption that you'd be scaling things up, so they wouldn't be 4th level. :)
Otherwise yes, you're correct.
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Jeremy makes a good point.
Keep the monsters as simple as possible, and don't forget your multi action abilities.
Also, when advancing monsters (especially the mooks), try to use static number increasing things. Lightning Reflexes or Iron Will, for example, Improved Toughness (check out how many of the NPCs have Imp Toughness or Imp Init, as written)
The less math you have to deal with, the better. (That's why i prefer Maximize Spell, as opposed to Empower, with regards to NPC's)
as far as running combats and the logistics therein...a couple of tips.
Try to use minis that correspond to the enemies well. It's just easier to keep track of. If thats impossible (or simply infeasible) be sure to jot down that "Fiendish Gnoll Archer" is really Ghast Archer #1, for ease of reference.
Shunt initiative to a player. Toss him/her some bonus XP, and let them deal with the cards/list/combat pad...this way you don't have to.
Pre-draw maps. Started doing this recently, and it's a lifesaver. When the party entered the areas they'd be fighting at in Scuttlecove, I pulled out pre-ruled sheets of 1" grid paper, on which I had already drawn the maps. It saved SO much time at the table, and I could take the time and energy away from the game (maybe 10-15 min/map) to make sure it was all neat and proper.
And simplify your combats. If they have a multi-step-power-up-routine (like the Monk/Drunken Master...Activate Gargoyle Crown, Activate Boots of Speed, Drink Booze, std action Activate Psionic Tatoo/Drink Potion), just let them declar "I do my thing" or somesuch, and move to the next guy. Likewise, know what you're going to do, and if necessary, pre-roll damage to speed up your day
Finally, try to keep them moving. If you're prepared with your NPC/Monster attack routines, and can resolve them quickly, the players will generally pick up on that and speed up themselves. It may take a bit, but they will, trust me.
-the hamster
(PS, Turin, the Brotherhood Monks are statted up in the Scuttlecove Backdrop article...if you come up with some bad-arse CR 13-15 "Boss" monks, let me know, cuz the party will almost certainly be back to take them down when done w/ the Crim Fleet.)
psionichamster: Scuttlecove backdrop - that in a Dragon issue or a Dungeon issue ?
CR 13-15 eh ? *grins evilly* Oh, I think I can manage something suitably malevolent. I will take a look for that (if I have it), otherwise I'll homebrew it and most likely take the party to the cleaners. Well, at least the Sunday crew ... nyuknyuk.
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scuttlecove backdrop is just after the "Serpents of Scuttlecove" adventure...
Dungeon 146, the one with Harliss on the front.
-the hamster
(oh yeah, no big rush on the baddies...my group won't meet till a week from sunday, and even then i expect the wreck and the crimson fleet fights to take all that night)
I agree that the 3rd Ed experience system is self-correcting, and that, since the players will get little experience individually per combat, they will be of a proportionally lower level as the campaign advances.
That said, I do find that in order to keep interest in the earlier parts of the path, namely TINH, you may want to pump the difficulty ever so slightly.
On the Blue Nixie, I gave one of the pirates on deck a musket. (This was a daring move, as a musket does 1d12 damage, and at first level, is risky. Still, fortune smiled, and I did 11 damage to a crusader with 13 for the first attack of the campaign with that blast.)
But, more practically, consider making some more diverse groups of members of the Lotus Dragons. This link should give some extra variants on members of this dastardly group of smugglers, which--arranged cleverly in their secret lair--could more thoroughly challenge a party than a bunch of rogues. (Don't get me wrong, I love a bunch of rogues, but variety is the spice of life.)
Another good trick (if you can get it to work) is to have the zombies in Parrot Island leap out at them at the most inopportune times. Just as they open a door, have one waiting, as two more come around from behind.
Altogether, spend the earlier sessions feeling things out, and try to make it so your players know that although things may seem easy now, when they have to finally make that save or contract savage fever, they'll feel the lower-level burn.