4th edition is coming, and 3rd editon is dying.
So can we please move on to the Bargaining phase please?
I mean, really lets move past some of the craziness that has been cluttering the Paizo boards. Yes, I understand that some people are upset that 4th edition is coming, that things are changing and that bothers people. 3rd edition D&D is a great game, but can we please move past the Denial and Anger stages of this process and get on with the Bargaining? I mean, come on! These boards have become almost unbearable to read since GenCon. Everyone is so convinced that the world is ending because 4E is on its way. “All my old books are useless!” “Wizards is going to go belly up because of this.” “I’m never buying a 4th edition product!”
Fine, if you really feel that way could you please stop posting on the 4th Edition boards? I come to the Paizo's boards because I can’t get anywhere near the Wizards forums from work and I'm dying for there to be real content on these boards. I want to read gossip and rumors about what cool new things happening in my favorite game. I want to hear people who are excited and happy about their favorite game is getting revamp.
Lets start talking about what might actually happen in the new edition. What do you want to see and why, as opposed to bashing Wizards? They gave us an amazing game. They supported it for seven years, and now they're going to retool it and release a new edition. Hopefully it will be better then 3rd edition was. Maybe it won't. Don't like it? That's fine, 3rd edition is a wonderful game after all. If you see no reason to change, then don't. Just please stop complaining about it and let those of us intrested in the new edition find out about what's coming next.
To get that discussion started, and turn this post into something other then a total rant:
The WotC crew at Gencon each had "Ask me about 4E" buttons and were each allowed to reveal a secret about the upcoming game. One of the guys on the D&D pod cast had "Multi Class: Any combo, any level, always works." So, looks like those annoying favored classes are out the window, which is good because my group ignored them anyway. Do you think the new level based race abilities will encourage a 'favored' class in some other way?
Thoughts? Other secrets you might have found out at GenCon?
My complaining about 4e is no less valid than your complaining about my complaining. So there! (sticking out my tongue)
I thought favored classes were silly too. The problem I see is that since every level in a class 'means something' is that if you multi-class, you will get some level 1 ability instead of level X ability. Unless the abilities scale in some way, multi-classing is once again penalized.
I personally think each race is going to be slightly better (or just plain better) at a certain class. Take for example the new elves, which "favor natural magic". I'm fairly certain that they'll be pretty good at being druids. How will WoTC implement this? If it's anything like Star Wars Saga Edition, and how I've interpreted their new spellcasting system (something like Saga Edition's Force power system, which is somewhat like Tome of Battle's maneuver system), I'll bet there's a skill associated with what type of magic you plan on taking and elves are better at that skill than others.
Of course, nothing (hopefully) will stop a player who wants to be an arcane casting elf from taking levels in wizard even though elves are better at druidic type stuff.
The problem I see is that since every level in a class 'means something' is that if you multi-class, you will get some level 1 ability instead of level X ability. Unless the abilities scale in some way, multi-classing is once again penalized.
Well, that I think will be the downside to multiclassing, which in my eyes needs some sort of downside. It makes sense that if you have been a wizard your whole life and then you decide to learn a little about fighting (i.e. a 5th level wizard takes a level in fighter, or "warlord", or whatever they're calling it now), you're not gonna be as good at fighting as you would be if you had just spent your whole life as a soldier or whatever (a level 5 wizard/level 1 warlord won't have the same level of warlord abilities as a level 6 warlord would have).
My complaining about 4e is no less valid than your complaining about my complaining. So there! (sticking out my tongue)
Fair point, and amusing to boot. I'm just hoping my complaining sparks a conversation with some information in them instead of the negative reactions that have been so common.
I thought favored classes were silly too. The problem I see is that since every level in a class 'means something' is that if you multi-class, you will get some level 1 ability instead of level X ability. Unless the abilities scale in some way, multi-classing is once again penalized.
This is true, we could see a penalty there, but that already exists. Or, they could find a way to give low level powers a synergy that would make them very useful to have both powers. Say, the weapon specialization feats available only to the fighter types granting an extra bonus when used with sneak attack damage. Or a bonus when used in conjunction with weapon based spells, or perhaps allowing a wizard to cast spells through his signature weapon.
I actually hope that the new abilities ‘level up’ along with the character, much like sneak attack damage did as you leveled up.
One thing I've learned from running Gestalt campaigns is that no matter how many different options a single character has, he's still not much powerful than a (non-gestalt) character in dealing with any single individual threat. The number of actions available is, on the other hand, incredibly important - if I can quicken a spell, or get my familiar to Use Magic Device to trigger a wand, I've gained a great deal. And if I have to spend my entire round healing somebody else, or casting a spell that gives everyone in the group a bonus, I've lost something.
So I'm very intrigued/excited about the hints that actions will be redefined, so that actions with "passive" results (like healing someone else, or giving everyone a bardic music bonus) won't interfere with each PC being able to take an "active" action to contribute to the scene being played out, each and every round.
So I'm very intrigued/excited about the hints that actions will be redefined, so that actions with "passive" results (like healing someone else, or giving everyone a bardic music bonus) won't interfere with each PC being able to take an "active" action to contribute to the scene being played out, each and every round.
You're dead on aout power. It's not how many abilities you have, but how many you can use in one turn. Chances are good that we'll see support actions like Bardic Music become swift or even immediate actions, so that the support characters can keep attacking while adding thier bonuses to the party.
The dragon comabt example had a cleric who rolled a crit and got to cast a free healing spell. That kind of thing could be a lot of fun.
Oh I certainly agree with "Jack of all trades, master of none". However, do we really have to make "Jack of all trades" useless to achieve this? Someone who casts spells and swings a sword should not be a better spell caster than the pure spell caster nor better at swinging a sword than the pure sword swinger. But they should still be useful to the party.
Oh I certainly agree with "Jack of all trades, master of none". However, do we really have to make "Jack of all trades" useless to achieve this? Someone who casts spells and swings a sword should not be a better spell caster than the pure spell caster nor better at swinging a sword than the pure sword swinger. But they should still be useful to the party.
I agree completely. "Jack of all trades" should not mean "Useless". The spell-sword should contribute just as much as a wizard or a fighter, but in a different way. Instead a fighter/wizard is a poor substitue for both. Without proper synery between the two classes, usually provided by some hooky prestige class, the player falls behind into a secondary role much better served by a cohort or hireling.
That's what made the bard of third edition so useless. He could contribute sure, but he was no where near as useful as a pure wizard, rogue, or fighter would be. For the party to get his moral bonuses, he lost a turn. Any spells he could cast, the wizard would get much faster and frankly be better at using them. He could never alongside the fighter on the front lines. His skills were useful, but not nearly as useful as a thief.
If the bard gets a boost to each category, and his bardic music becomes a swift action, then you'd be looking at a very useful party member.
I agree completely.
Stop that. I wanted to keep this all about negative reactions that are so common these days.
Can't we all just not get along?
I agree completely.Stop that. I wanted to keep this all about negative reactions that are so common these days.
Can't we all just not get along?
Not unless you stop being so reasonable.
I never started.
I personally think each race is going to be slightly better (or just plain better) at a certain class. Take for example the new elves, which "favor natural magic". I'm fairly certain that they'll be pretty good at being druids. How will WoTC implement this? If it's anything like Star Wars Saga Edition, and how I've interpreted their new spellcasting system (something like Saga Edition's Force power system, which is somewhat like Tome of Battle's maneuver system), I'll bet there's a skill associated with what type of magic you plan on taking and elves are better at that skill than others.
So, if the magic system is likely to be similair to Star Wars Sage, Edition, would you please explain the basics of the system?
Everybody keeps pointing out the likely similarity, but Star Wars Saga edition isn't a book I own and I'm not willing to buy it. My group would never play Star Wars, and the Tome of Battle book I ordered appears to be lost somewhere in the limbo of the US post office.
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So, looks like those annoying favored classes are out the window, which is good because my group ignored them anyway. Do you think the new level based race abilities will encourage a 'favored' class in some other way?
In a recent staff blog there was mention of "suggested" classes for races, and that racial abilities tend to work especially well (albeit not exclusively) with features and themes of their suggested classes. It sounds a lot more natural than the favored class hack. (Favored classes are way better than racial level limits, but only because level limits were so monumentally awful.)
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"Jack of all trades" should not mean "Useless". The spell-sword should contribute just as much as a wizard or a fighter, but in a different way. Instead a fighter/wizard is a poor substitue for both. Without proper synery between the two classes, usually provided by some hooky prestige class, the player falls behind into a secondary role much better served by a cohort or hireling.
And it's funny that despite all the kvetching about how broken those PrCs were when 3.5e was released, it still seems like the compromise wasn't enough to get a lot of people playing eldritch knights and mystic theurges (thus leading to further experiments like the combo-class feats from the later Complete books, and classes like the duskblade). Getting that multiclassing to work, being attractive and balanced simultaneously, is going to be really tricky.
I personally think each race is going to be slightly better (or just plain better) at a certain class. Take for example the new elves, which "favor natural magic". I'm fairly certain that they'll be pretty good at being druids. How will WoTC implement this? If it's anything like Star Wars Saga Edition, and how I've interpreted their new spellcasting system (something like Saga Edition's Force power system, which is somewhat like Tome of Battle's maneuver system), I'll bet there's a skill associated with what type of magic you plan on taking and elves are better at that skill than others.
So, if the magic system is likely to be similair to Star Wars Sage, Edition, would you please explain the basics of the system?
Everybody keeps pointing out the likely similarity, but Star Wars Saga edition isn't a book I own and I'm not willing to buy it. My group would never play Star Wars, and the Tome of Battle book I ordered appears to be lost somewhere in the limbo of the US post office.
It works a little like this:
A character with the Force Sensitivity feat (which Jedi get for free) can take the Force Training feat, which gives him access to 1 + Wis modifier Force Powers each time he takes the feat. Each power is usable once per encounter (if he wants to use a power more than once per encounter, he needs to choose that power more than once. I.E. if his Wis is 14, he could choose Force Lightning three times, which would allow him to use Force Lighting three times in an encounter.) There are ways to gain back the use of a Force power already used in an encounter, including, among other things, spending a Force point (read: action point) and the use of talents (which are like class features that the player gets to choose from a list at every odd level).
There is a skill called Use the Force that represents the character's ability at using Force powers. Each Force power has a baseline effect with a (usually) low Use the Force DC (though some powers have higher base DCs and thus aren't a suitable choice for low level force users). In addition to the baseline effect, the power also has higher level effects that have correspondingly-higher DCs. If you don't at least succeed on the baseline Use the Force DC, the power has no effect.
.. Now if Wizards really makes this like Saga Edition, then the way they'd make Elves good at natural magic would give them, as a racial bonus feat, the "Natural Magic Sensitivity" feat. Then even an elven warlord would be able to take "Druidic Training" and be able to supplement his fighting with a few druid spells. Multiclassing to Druid would give him access to the Druid's talent trees, which would make him even better at natural magic.
Getting that multiclassing to work, being attractive and balanced simultaneously, is going to be really tricky.
As long as they cling to the 'class' paradigm.
…if they drop gnomes. Oh! Oh! And Halflings! In fact, let's do away with all of Darby O'Gill's people.
…if they drop gnomes.
Dropping gnomes is an amusing pastime, but you have to find a high enough place or they just bounce and run away unharmed.
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It works a little like this:
*SNIP DESCRIPTION*
1st off - how many feats would Vader have to burn before the end of cloud city? IIRC - 7 things got thrown at Luke, plus flipping up the control for the cabonite, thats 8 uses of telekinesis right there... so 2 feats (I'm guessing his WIS isn't +7)...
I think this would be interesting way of going about it - that way people don't complain about the number of feats that the Human Fighter has.
Well, one thing to think about is that every class in Saga edition gets a bonus feat at every even level, which I am assuming 4th Ed. is going to do in order to make sure characters get something useful at every level.
But, talking about Vader in cloud city, flipping the control panel would be a simple Use the Force check, DC 10 probably for move light object (which allows the movement of anything 5 kg or less), not an actual Force power. According to the Saga edition core rulebook, Vader hasn't taken multiple uses of the Move Object Force power by the end of Episode IV, so he probably spent a bunch of Force points to regain the use of Move Object a few times.
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4th edition is coming, and 3rd editon is dying.
So can we please move on to the Bargaining phase please?
GODS vs IDOLS: currently a hot topic in WOTC Forums, They should attract Divine Ranks like Gods...The more worshipers, the more Godly power an Idol has...it just cant use that power directly (so an Idol should be restricted to Divine Abilities that are always active...If a God with a thousand worshipers has an Aura of Fear then so should an Idol with fifty thousand worshipers).
ENCHANTING REALY BIG THINGS: Very Old D&D had rules on enchanting Flying ships and Castles...If you apply the Enchant frame method using Minor Creation (1 cubic ft of wood/level of caster) & Fly Spell for a flying ship (as ship from DMG) then the time and cost for a 20th level wizard is 70 years and 25+ million gp.
OARDS: The Oards were a major D&D race of Technologically advanced cloners timetravelling in the ultimate conspiracy to rewrite history before it happens and stamp out magic.
BLACKLORE: Pronounced BLAKLOR; a forbidden knowledge or technology, (D&D) a form of magical knowledge of such ultimate complexity and efficiency as to be identical to advanced technology (techno-magic).
Basicly this was magic used to create laser weapons and flying saucers. All within the rules of D&D.
Blacklore technology...
FROST-RIFLE (MK5) (Wondrous magic item)
Requirements: Wizard/Sorcerer level 14, Craft (Gem-cutting) Craft (Woodwork) and/or Craft (metalwork), Ray of Frost (0-Level spell), Craft Wondrous Item Feat, Enlarge Spell Feat, Empower Spell Feat, Quicken Spell Feat
Frost-rifle MKV
Damage: 1d3+1, Range: 120’, Multi-Shard Power Crystal (50 Single-charge Shards), Effect: Up to six free action single fixed-target ranged touch attacks per round. Cost: 126,000gp
Components include: Multi-Shard Power Crystal (each shard enchanted with Ray of Frost), Range Doubler Lens, Enhanced Damage lens, and High-speed Stock.
COMBAT Supporting Feats: Weapon focus (RAY)
Blacklore Adventure Paths...
A CLOSE ENCOUNTER OF THE GOBLINKIND
The Citadel of light hovered over them for a while until it turned and little more than a large dark discus was above them. Now the discus lowered slightly until its centre sat above the ground.
"BUA! BA! BA! BA! BU!" The Incredible sound echoed across the landscape.
"BUA! BA! BA! BA! BU!" The Sound came again from the great Citadel in the Sky.
Now a small light appeared at the heart of it...and spread becoming a large opening from which small children emerged.
"This isn’t happening....Kord tells us we are alone in the Universe!" Jethero the Paladin up and fled.
The Ugly little children in silver clothes emerged and surrounded Silvarn the Wizard.
"Help...I'm being abducted!" They walked him back into the light.
DM BRIEFING: A major incursion occurs as the Goblin Citadel-ship ENCOUNTER is revealed to the planetary populace. The evening is filled with sightings of strange lights in the sky, the abduction of ten thousand head of livestock, mass-crop vandalism (crop circles). They proceed to abduct numerous Wizards capable of understanding BLACKLORE. All the Goblins wear silver clothing.
Well, not that I'm planning on buying 4e at all, nor am I overly happy with what I'm hearing... But I am all for an end to the whining so I'll throw my hat into this ring.
1) AN END TO LAND MINE SPELLS
No, not spells that create land mines. I mean spells like Rays (no saves? Ever? Srsly?), and most importantly, little things like True Strike that, when applied to magical items, wreak all kinds of havoc. Lion's Charge (and Psionic Lion's Charge) create similar land mines: Continuous items that are perhaps too good for their level and cost. Either these spells need to be fixed, or item creation rules need to be fixed. ... Say, that's not a bad idea anyway.
2) AN END TO CLASS SHAFTING
Ah, the Fighter. You are so... Straightforward. So inelegant. So... Boring. Though there are many reasons to play a Fighter, there are many more to play a Barbarian or Paladin (or, so I'm told, to tool a Cleric or Druid for melee)...
PrCs to the rescue? Nope. Almost everything that could make the Fighter good can't be taken by a single-classed Fighter. Barbarians and Paladins get their pick, though.
A similar story can be woven for the Sorceror: So much effort was poured into spontaneous casting... To have its caster be so seemingly ignored in comparison to the Wizard. Again, there are many reasons to play a Sorc. There are usually more reasons to play a Wizard. And while the Sorceror gets a few good PrCs, again, the lion's share goes to the Wizard.
Stop the madness, Wizards.
3) AN END TO RACIAL DEITIES
... Okay, so I ask far too much of you.
I guess that's all for now.