My group (I, being a player, not DM, in said group) is in the middle of STAP, about to reach Farshore. The AP's been tough, make no mistake, and I expected no less, as I'm running a different group through AoW and killed 3 PCs last session in SoLS (wicked crazy tough adventure!).
Anyhoo, I took the Leadership feat at 6th to acquire a cleric cohort. I'm the healer of the party (favored soul), but I'm planning on multiying to paly and eventually knight of the sliver chalice, the cohort would become the main healer with me being the back up (plus she's female, so she can keep my PC company during the long journeys...).
Okay, so to the point. The DM thinks the path is so tough, he's letting me switch out my Leadership feat and keep the cohort and is giving the other four PCs cohorts for free as well to make up for it (all through NPCs we've met along the way, so nothing cheesy). Is STAP really that tough (keep in mind I'm a player, and don't want to see spoilers...it's tough enough to not read my Dungeon mags)?
My group (I, being a player, not DM, in said group) is in the middle of STAP, about to reach Farshore. The AP's been tough, make no mistake, and I expected no less, as I'm running a different group through AoW and killed 3 PCs last session in SoLS (wicked crazy tough adventure!).
Anyhoo, I took the Leadership feat at 6th to acquire a cleric cohort. I'm the healer of the party (favored soul), but I'm planning on multiying to paly and eventually knight of the sliver chalice, the cohort would become the main healer with me being the back up (plus she's female, so she can keep my PC company during the long journeys...).
Okay, so to the point. The DM thinks the path is so tough, he's letting me switch out my Leadership feat and keep the cohort and is giving the other four PCs cohorts for free as well to make up for it (all through NPCs we've met along the way, so nothing cheesy). Is STAP really that tough (keep in mind I'm a player, and don't want to see spoilers...it's tough enough to not read my Dungeon mags)?
With standard rules and 4 PC's, cohorts are an excellent idea for the STAP. With more than 5 or 6, cohorts and other such permanent hangers-on actually bog down the game at each and every fight scene. Summoned critters are bad enough to deal with...
Depending on the makeup of your group, the STAP can be massively difficult at times.
I don't really find cohorts problematic, as long as their players have their stats and moves work out in advance of their turn in combat, just like for their own primary characters. On the other hand, players who have to publicly rehearse each and every possible step of their character's turn and take 5+ minutes to do so are a problem anyway....
That said, I find a "free cohort" rather much of a boon (after all they are usually balanced out by the expenditure of a vlaubale feat ) by your GM, unless your group lacks key skills and abilities without those.
From a pure role-playing standpoint, Leadership could be a powerful feat, without the cohort. The cohort--in its many varied forms--is still powerful enough to warrant requiring a feat, if you ask me. Ultimately, it depends on its application.
Let's say your DM allows you full control over your cohort (as I've seen most do). It goes when you tell it to, with or without your conscious effort. You might have to pay for its equipment entirely out of pocket, or it might start with the appropriate equipment for the NPC level you acquired it at. What you've effectively got here is another character--albeit a small one--who doesn't even suck up any experience. Not to shabby for a feat you have to wait until 6th level for.
Of course, that's the purely mechanical POV on it. It's one of the neater feats, but carries baggage. First, extra paperwork. You're going to build another character, or have to pick from one, depending on your DM's preference, and probably have to manage it. Okay, no biggie. High-level wizards usually have multi-page character sheets for all their spells. So, if you're up for it, it's very rewarding. My brother played a bard w/a totemist (Magic of Incarnum) cohort in my previous campaign, and was very successful at handling it.
A player of mine--playing in STAP also--wants to take Leadership, himself. With such a diverse selection of characters to choose from, and fantastic locales, an appropriate cohort would add a wonderful role-playing element to the game.
Have fun with it, if you decide to go for the cohort. While I don't believe a cohort is necessary for the AP, they can help take the burden off of the PCs' shoulders when needed.
hmmm, ok, looking at hiero's post; I see there is a difference in the way cohorts are handled. My evaluation of cohorts being worth the cost of a feat (and being too much of a benefit if given freely ) rests mainly on our way of doing things.
Around here, we usually have the GM (me) and the player create the cohort in cooperation.
First off, the player announces to the GM, that he intends to attract a cohort one or more levels in advance of actually taking the feat. The player states what type of cohort he is looking for, the GM produces a draft and both then flesh out the details of background, spells known etc. I usually add a twist or two to the players wishes... The NPC/cohort-to-be is then introduced into the campaign,crossing paths (and possibly blades) with the group. A few times the cohort was even introduced under a false name, to throw the player and facilliate recruitment roleplaying.
The PC then attempts to attract the cohort through active role-playing, finding out if there is a shared agenda etc. - builds up a leader-follower relationship, or mentor-apprentice ( we even had a ex-lover/groupie cohort situation once, which was great fun ), establishing a rapport and a degree of commitment on both sides. Urol for example has become a cohort to my group, since his rescue in HtbM provided a deep-seated feeling of gratitude to the PCs.
For all of this time, the cohort is still being run as a fully fledged independent NPC. We had one or two cohorts accidentally killed or driven-off by the group in the recruitment phase over the years as well, so basically the "recruiting" is far from automatic.
Once the rapport is established, and the feat actually gets taken, the player gets full control over the cohort, subject to the GMs veto, who also has the privilege to "dictate" cohort actions when he judges the cohort gets played against personality,its own motives or abused ( same way we handle familliars and animal companions, too ). Or if he needs to initiate some campaign event etc. This makes the cohort potential sources of trouble.
As for the current STAP, we have a bard chronicler who is now the semi-combatant character, she doesn't tug along all that often anymore, mostly because we have a PC bard in the group since HtbM. Instead, she has grown into the groups administrative representative and liasion. The trigger for this was she got pregnant by one of the PCs... don't ask. I am planning to introduce a replacement cohort atm, but that will only happen after their exploration of the Lightless Depths.
The second (combatant) cohort is a bodyguard, who acts as his PCs shieldman and defender, using combat experise, allied defense and shield feats to protect his knightly liege (Dwarf Ranger/Fighter- angling for Devoted Defender) , and generally acts as the "straight man" in several social situations, and Urol (reworked some), who acts as the party's backup healer and GM-conduit for strange knowledgable insights being cohort number three. He replaced the initial cohort, a warmage who got eaten by the beachside T-Rex.
Given the impact and benefits the cohorts present to the party, I think they are definitely worth the expenditure of a feat, especially since each and every (combatant) cohort presents an extra set of actions/turn in every fight, as well as an extra target for the opposition to worry about. Of course, we run the cohorts with a greater degree of player control then Hierophanstasms group, thereby raising their worth.
This is of course balanced through a serious roleplaying effort to actually recruit one, and a lengthy re-recruitment process once a cohort dies or leaves, deriving the character of any benefits from the feat for perhaps a prolonged period of time.
Following a TPK in Taboo Temple, 3 of my 4 remade PCs decided to spend a feat on Leadership to each get a cohort.
My question is, what are the standard character creation rules for cohorts? I looked in the DMG section but only saw the part about giving xp and treasure. Each of my PCs was made with 32 point buy, so for the cohorts I let the players make their own with only 25 point buy and their starting gear value equal to what an NPC at that level would have (see DMG pg 127). Does that sound about right/fair? My rationale behind the 25 point buy and lower gear value was to really drive home that the cohort is there as support and should not be equal to a PC.
My question is, what are the standard character creation rules for cohorts? I looked in the DMG section but only saw the part about giving xp and treasure. Each of my PCs was made with 32 point buy, so for the cohorts I let the players make their own with only 25 point buy and their starting gear value equal to what an NPC at that level would have (see DMG pg 127). Does that sound about right/fair? My rationale behind the 25 point buy and lower gear value was to really drive home that the cohort is there as support and should not be equal to a PC.
I usually go with the "elite array" for NPCs w/class levels--that is: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, and put'em where you like. But, I guess it depends on preference, too. Some might roll, and some might do point buy. I'd say, ultimately, you get to make the call.
we use a 30 point buy - with a 33 buy for main characters.
In other campaigns, the cohorts have often become the replacement characters when a PC gets killed "in the field"
Wealth - app. 2/3rd - 3/3 of normal NPC wealth, usually picked by the GM.
Why not multiple PCs? If every player has two characters (without paying the feat) why not have two characters? I have played campaigns like this when the player numbers are small. It even lets me get twice the gaming goodness out of a single session.
Or have a party cohort, bring in a Jade Raven or two?
Why not multiple PCs? If every player has two characters (without paying the feat) why not have two characters? I have played campaigns like this when the player numbers are small. It even lets me get twice the gaming goodness out of a single session.
Two reasons, I'm thinking. First, they are still NPCs and the DM has at least some say in how the cohort will act. Second, most of them are NPCs that have been with us all along, and so they aren't just new additions to the group that just pop up. Third, they don't soak up XP, leaving the leveling up more in sync with what it should be.
...three, three reasons why it's a cohort. NPCs at heart, no new charcters, no XP loss...plus they're considerably less powerful than PCs....four! Four reasons you wouldn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!
:p
How about the "lesser" NPCs a hero with Leadership attracts? You know, all those 1 to 3 HD cronies to use as troops! Might be nice to defending Farshore...
How about the "lesser" NPCs a hero with Leadership attracts? You know, all those 1 to 3 HD cronies to use as troops! Might be nice to defending Farshore...
Vrocks like kibble too, preferably still alive and screaming.
careful about possible spoilers Turin - OP stated that he is a player
Something one might want to consider with the cohorts is giving out animal cohorts like Dragons and such. In larger groups these have the benifit of both being ultra cool as support for the main character but also comparatively easy to actually run (thus increasing the speed of those long complex high level fights).
This dramatically cuts back on the paper work aspect of things.
I'm playing a Changeling Psion/Rogue/Elocator/Avenger w/Human Ardent Elocator Cohort Lvl 15/13 in the Psionichamster's Savage tide - the infamous Z. It's a tough game. The baddies are truely bad-ass. Even still Cohorts are not necessary. I got to 12th level alone - at that time I took a cohort because with all the teleporting it's hard to be in 2 places at once and that was really what Z needed.
Cohorts have their downfalls too. For 1 They suck up your treasure, and if you take the proper interest in the poor sap who decided to follow you into this madness they become a money sink and nice low level target, they also focus a lot of attention on your leadership score - you need to keep that up in order to keep advancing your new buddy.
In my case I've sunk more than half my treasure every time we get to port on getting Escher's gear to match up with Z's and keep the crazy tattooed disintegrator/teleporter occupied.
Our cleric is a big fan of Holy word - he tried the Lawful version but that knocked out almost the entire party and nearly killed the 3 cohorts. Holy word still takes out the cohorts if they are unlucky enough to hear it.
In our party I'm really the only player who's cohort is in the thick of combat (yay bad ass flanking token!). The other 2 are mostly support/knowledge/crafting. I recommend using them that way. Supplement your cohort to take care of you after battle with healing, crafting or transport.
I'm starting to DM a second session of STAP with a new group - they're underpowered by the sheer fact they all wanted to be fighters :\ I've included in the game several npc's/would-be cohorts to flesh out the party but they're services are only available to the PC's if they take the feat. They're all pretty dumb so we'll see how long they last. The Fighter Warforged already died once - if he's smart enough to take the Artificer they know as a cohort maybe that won't happen again.
It should also be noted some players can't handle 2 full round actions in a round. We have at least 2 such players in our game who can barely manage to hold they're attention long enough to take care of their own character much less a second (to be clear, I have been this player at times). Some DM's disallow Leadership/Thrallherd/Mindbender all together, I've made it clear that they are allowed but subject to approval - if I don't think you can handle it I'm not going to put the entire group through your fumbling which serves to slow down the game and can embarrass the offending player horribly.
ALL THAT SAID: as a DM AND a player I'm offended that your's is giving you free cohorts. They're something you should work at, something that should cost you, they're basically secondary PC's and should take something away from your character in order to obtain. But if 1 player gets a free buddy, everyone should - or at least a free feat so they have a choice in the matter.