I don't know maybe it's just my group. But I can only recall 1 time where a anyone from group played a bard. And it was only for one session even.
Do any other groups have this kind of look for Bards?
I've tumbled across the thread about fixing Wizards. And was very interested in it. And I've decided to make a few homebrew changes to it that I think will work out pretty well.
But I also want to see if maybe there are some changes one could make to bard. I think that bards have a nice nitch that they could fill in this new world Paizo has created. Varisian Bards seem to have a new inspiring flavor that bring new life to Bards. I just figure it'd be nice to make them a bit more attractive for Players to use them.
I have some ideas, but I'm about to head off to start Burnt Offerings. But I will post them tomorrow, maybe some of you have been thinking the same thing! :)
Actually in our group Bard is one of the most played classes. There is one player who almost always plays either an elven sorcerer or bard and another who regularly plays bards. I play them sometimes myself. I don't feel that there's anything that needs fixing with the class. Using the Inspire Courage ability is extremely useful and bards can make fairly good melee or ranged combatants with the right feats and mabye a few levels of Swashbuckler or Rogue. Their spells are useful if you focus on Illsion/Enchantment and if used properly. Bardic Knowledge also comes in pretty handy.
I like bards, but I always multiclass them--sometimes with paladin, just to combine everyone's two least favorite classes. The SRD Prestige Bard variant is geat fun, too. But to run a straight bard? Meh.
Actually in our group Bard is one of the most played classes. There is one player who almost always plays either an elven sorcerer or bard and another who regularly plays bards. I play them sometimes myself. I don't feel that there's anything that needs fixing with the class. Using the Inspire Courage ability is extremely useful and bards can make fairly good melee or ranged combatants with the right feats and mabye a few levels of Swashbuckler or Rogue. Their spells are useful if you focus on Illsion/Enchantment and if used properly. Bardic Knowledge also comes in pretty handy.
I agree, it also helps if you use the Spell Compendium which added a lot to the Bard's spell list.
I never run a straight anything, I always multiclass it or add a PrC.
The spells from the Compendium are nice but I have to watch the spells, a few of them are overpowered or run contrary to the flavor of a class.
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I think that the only thing the bard class really needs is a few new songs. Here's a few that I'd like to see added:
- Song of Doom (Ex) - Available at level 3 and 6 Perform ranks: As inspire courage but applies a penalty instead of a bonus and affects all enemies within earshot. Does not allow a save. Cannot affect creatures immune to mind-affecting effects or creatures that are deaf. Increases along with inspire courage.
- Inspire Swiftness (Su) - Available at level 11 and 14 Perform ranks: All allies within earshot gain the effects of the haste spell. This effect does not persist after the bard ceases his performance like other bardic music effects.
- Song of Discord (Ex) - Available at level 14 and 17 Perform ranks: All enemies within earshot are considered flanked by your allies. Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 bard level + CHA mod) negates. Cannot affect creatures immune to mind-affecting effects or creatures that are deaf.
- Song of Terror (Su) - Available at level 16 and 19 Perform ranks: Must be used against a creature currently under the effect of your Song of Doom (much like the suggestion ability). A bard may activate this use of bardic music as a standard action while maintaining the Song of Doom effect. The targetted creature must be within close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) and is allowed a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 bard level + CHA mod.). If the save fails, the target is panicked for as long as he can hear your Song of Doom. If the save succeeds, the creature is still shaken while under the effects of your Song of Doom (the penalties for shaken stack with the penalties from Song of Doom). This is a mind-affecting fear effect.
Of course, that's just me. :)
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If you watch the dice rolls and track how many times a fighter would have missed if not for the bonuses provided by a bard and the overall extra damage from each PC hit, the bard does some decent damage. They can heal. I wouldn't mind seeing them fair a bit better in the combat department (maybe some ranged feat or something), but overall not a bad class.
FH
My current PC is an elven bard. With some cool tweaks she has turned out to be an amazing archer, a very decent healer, and all the benifits of bardic music.
After taking a couple of flaws (Elven Pride of Arms and Grudge Keeper) from the racial ones in Dragon (not sure which issue) I ended up with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot at 1st-level.
Stacking on Rapid Shot at 3rd-level with a 18 Dex (22 with Cat's Grace, my own spell) I manage to hit quiet often with two arrows a round.
At 6th-level I took the Lyric Spell feat so I can basically get up to 6 more Cure Light Wounds or 3 more Cure Moderate Wounds per day (or any other 1st or 2nd-level spell combo).
Mind you this is at the expense of my bardic music. However since you only get into an average of four fights a day it still leaves me with two uses of bardic music left for spell purposes and that will only increase as my spell use gets better.
So all in all I am pretty pleased with the character as it has evolved.
I have never seen a need to make the Bard more attractive.
Although, I do see it as a daunting class. The "Master of None" aspect of the class means a player would actually have to work to make them shine.
So, it really isn't for everyone.
Man I hate Bards. Stop playing the flute at the Orcs and get a sword you ninny.
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I've actually never quite understood why they have bards cast arcane spells. Bards are story tellers, jacks of all trades, lore keepers, musicians etc, not junior wizards.
I like that they have spell like powers based on their performing skills, but I don't think they should actually cast spells.
Of course, I am also very against Rangers casting spells...
I like that they have spell like powers based on their performing skills, but I don't think they should actually cast spells. Of course, I am also very against Rangers casting spells...
With Bo9S, fighters cast spells now, too!
Bards are one of my favourite classes. In my experience, they've always provided a deeper link to the campaign setting's culture and history, and been the centre of some of the liveliest RPing. Of course, any class can do that, but being the diplomats/entertainers, they have that extra edge. They're also great in the context of urban adventures/campaigns.
I think the bard spell lists in Monte Cook's Complete Book of Eldritch Might make much more sense than those presented in the Player's Handbook. If/when I multiclass, I lean towards Bard/Fighter (I really liked the Gallant kit from the 2nd ed. Complete Book of Bards), or Bard/Rogues.
I've actually never quite understood why they have bards cast arcane spells. Bards are story tellers, jacks of all trades, lore keepers, musicians etc, not junior wizards.
I like that they have spell like powers based on their performing skills, but I don't think they should actually cast spells.
Of course, I am also very against Rangers casting spells...
Coming from a culture where magic was strongly associated with words and songs (and most mythical wizards were actually bards), I have no problem with bards casting spells.
And as for roleplaying, I like to play bards. It might not be the strongest class out there but it is one of the more entertaining classes...but their usefulness depends a lot on style of campaign. Regular dungeoncrawling-wilderness adventures are not their strong point, but then again in more urban adventure most fighters are useful only for standing there and getting pointed at by the bard, "if you don't do things my way my friend Vito here will be unhappy and you don't want that."
Next to clerics, my favorite class.
The only problem I have ever seen with a bard is that they don't fill any one of the core roles fully (tanker, sneaker, nuker, healer) so they end up being a great 5th player class...
My group has four players when we are lucky
They are not really all that bad when you have less then four players since they somewhat fill multiple roles. They are a good class if their are 5 or more players or if there are less then 4 players. Mainly they just don't work if there are exactly 4 players.
I like that they have spell like powers based on their performing skills, but I don't think they should actually cast spells. Of course, I am also very against Rangers casting spells...With Bo9S, fighters cast spells now, too!
Yeah, I would kinda like to play in a Fantasy campaign where everyone does not cast spells.
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In combat bards are just there to aid others. It's in roleplaying situations where they really shine. My favorite character ever is a dwarven fighter/bard. Strange combo sure, but as a 200 year old dwarf he has seen a lot. So he has lots of stories, some which can inspire the party. But it wasn't the combat that makes him my favorite, its all the things I was able to do out of combat, in roleplaying situations. Diplomacy, bluff, disguise self, bardic knowledge, knowledge history, etc. The benefits of a wizard and a rogue rolled into one.
That said, we play a rp heavy game. If you’re playing a combat heavy game I can see where bards are being ignored.
In another train of thought, I think the beguiler might be a better "bard", though you're losing the musical flavor (which is not what draws me to the class).
Bards can be really fun, if the player that plays one gets into character...
A fun character I played was called 'The Great Ozaki'. He was a human bard with a knack for exageration. I was playing with a group in a new world created by the DM. So I actually made up places and events in my rantings wich the DM used later on when he drew up new maps.
..."Yes, The Great Ozaki has seen it all! He's brought joy to the inhabitants of the Swamp of Sorrow, climbed to the very peak of Mount Infinity (barefoot!), found a hidden cave on the 666th layer of the Abyss witch led to yet another layer, fought and killed the Giant Snarzle that terrorized the evil people of Bloodwitch Village (then killed the villagers), retrieved the lost artifact of Impalpabloth (wich happened to be invisible, incorporeal and undetectable by any magical means)..."
You get the point.
Ultradan
I think that the only thing the bard class really needs is a few new songs. Here's a few that I'd like to see added:
- Song of Doom (Ex) - Available at level 3 and 6 Perform ranks: As inspire courage but applies a penalty instead of a bonus and affects all enemies within earshot. Does not allow a save. Cannot affect creatures immune to mind-affecting effects or creatures that are deaf. Increases along with inspire courage.
- Inspire Swiftness (Su) - Available at level 11 and 14 Perform ranks: All allies within earshot gain the effects of the haste spell. This effect does not persist after the bard ceases his performance like other bardic music effects.
- Song of Discord (Ex) - Available at level 14 and 17 Perform ranks: All enemies within earshot are considered flanked by your allies. Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 bard level + CHA mod) negates. Cannot affect creatures immune to mind-affecting effects or creatures that are deaf.
- Song of Terror (Su) - Available at level 16 and 19 Perform ranks: Must be used against a creature currently under the effect of your Song of Doom (much like the suggestion ability). A bard may activate this use of bardic music as a standard action while maintaining the Song of Doom effect. The targetted creature must be within close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) and is allowed a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 bard level + CHA mod.). If the save fails, the target is panicked for as long as he can hear your Song of Doom. If the save succeeds, the creature is still shaken while under the effects of your Song of Doom (the penalties for shaken stack with the penalties from Song of Doom). This is a mind-affecting fear effect.
Of course, that's just me. :)
I really like this! Actually this was what I was going to suggest. Some more useful Songs for them to perform. The spells they have and the ones listed in the compendium are all well and good. But bards should be more about their performances. I really like yours Fatespinner, I think I will employ them if you don't mind me stealing your ideas :)
Here are a couple I was thinking of:
- Pathfinders March (Su) - Available at level 3 and Perform 6 ranks. All allies within earshot gain a +5 morale bonus to movement. This effect does not persist after the bard ceases his performance like other bardic music effects.
- Magical Finale (Su) - Available at level 14 with Perform 17 Ranks. 'Casting' Time: 5 minutes. 1 time per day. All allies within earshot recover 1 spell slot per half the bards level may be recovered. (Example: level 14 bard performs Magical Finale, a Wizard ally within range may recover a level 3 spell slot and a level 4 spell slot. A Cleric ally within range also choses to recover a level 2 spell slot and a level 5 spell slot.) A DC 30 Perform check may be used to increase the spell slot recover to 1 spell slot per bard level. If the DC check fails, the performance is used without any benefits being gained. The performance may not be interupted or the usage for the day is used.
Magical Finale (Su) - Available at level 14 with Perform 17 Ranks. 'Casting' Time: 5 minutes. 1 time per day. All allies within earshot recover 1 spell slot per half the bards level may be recovered. (Example: level 14 bard performs Magical Finale, a Wizard ally within range may recover a level 3 spell slot and a level 4 spell slot. A Cleric ally within range also choses to recover a level 2 spell slot and a level 5 spell slot.) A DC 30 Perform check may be used to increase the spell slot recover to 1 spell slot per bard level. If the DC check fails, the performance is used without any benefits being gained. The performance may not be interupted or the usage for the day is used.
I'd make this one cost 1 use of bardic music per spell level regained, per person, or something along those lines. That way you don't have a bard recharging an army of wizards, and you don't have the "1/day" mechanic that all other bardic music abilities lack. I'd also make it cost a feat to gain this ability. As is: guy with Cha 16, Perform 17 ranks takes 10 on the check, scores a 30, and everyone within earshot (potentially an entire military unit made up of casters) regains 14 levels of spells, and the bard still has 13 uses a day of bardic music left?
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I played a bard from level 1-10 or so and it was quite a good character. We had three (other two were a knight(phb2) and sorcerer) in the party for most of that, so I was on the hook for buffs, healing, and sneaking. It was great fun, and with a high int, a bard knows pretty much anything. Take the Jack of all Trades feat to be able to use *any* skill and you're set for good times. ;) Plus, he was decent in combat. Definitely a second fiddle in terms of damage, but every bit helps.
Anyway, bards have gotten a bad rap.
I only once played as a bard (one of the few times I've been a PC) during 2nd edition. It was fun from a roleplaying standpoint, since I loved playing him as a high society jerk. But by and large he was pretty useless in combat.
The only other time was a few years ago when a friend played a gnome bard with a one-man band set up. He would play "Iron Man" as inspire courage. Silly, stupid character but his greatest moment was getting Kazmojen in Life's Bazaar felled via Tasha's Hideous Laughter.
I and most of the people I've played with find it more than a little silly to go into a fight playing an instrument and it's just about impossible to keep them from mocking me when I put a bard villain into an encounter (at least, until I run "And Madness Followed"...). That being said, they're an effective class as long as you understand that you aren't going to be the big shot star in a fight. You CAN however be the big shot star in a diplomatic/role-playing situation with that high charisma and all those social skills. Bards can also be a DM's dream, simply because bardic knowledge allows a Dungeon Master to slip in all kinds of adventure/setting background info that the party wouldn't learn otherwise.
Magical Finale (Su) - Available at level 14 with Perform 17 Ranks. 'Casting' Time: 5 minutes. 1 time per day. All allies within earshot recover 1 spell slot per half the bards level may be recovered. (Example: level 14 bard performs Magical Finale, a Wizard ally within range may recover a level 3 spell slot and a level 4 spell slot. A Cleric ally within range also choses to recover a level 2 spell slot and a level 5 spell slot.) A DC 30 Perform check may be used to increase the spell slot recover to 1 spell slot per bard level. If the DC check fails, the performance is used without any benefits being gained. The performance may not be interupted or the usage for the day is used.I'd make this one cost 1 use of bardic music per spell level regained, per person, or something along those lines. That way you don't have a bard recharging an army of wizards, and you don't have the "1/day" mechanic that all other bardic music abilities lack. I'd also make it cost a feat to gain this ability. As is: guy with Cha 16, Perform 17 ranks takes 10 on the check, scores a 30, and everyone within earshot (potentially an entire military unit made up of casters) regains 14 levels of spells, and the bard still has 13 uses a day of bardic music left?
I can't seem to edit my post. Strange.
But I do agree. That really wouldn't come up in my game so I didn't think of it. But it's better to take care of the problem before it appears. lol
Changing the DC to 35 (even with a +6 Modifier and 17 Ranks, can't take 10)
And just making it 1 spell slot costs 1 use of bardic music per spell level regained, per person.
Don't like the costing a feat thing though. Don't like forcing them towards that. I want it to be like any of their other songs.
I like bards, but I always multiclass them--sometimes with paladin, just to combine everyone's two least favorite classes. The SRD Prestige Bard variant is geat fun, too. But to run a straight bard? Meh.
You know Bard's can't actually be Lawful, and Paladin's can't be anything but... Normally anyhow. Just thought I'd point that out.
You know Bards can't actually be Lawful, and Paladins can't be anything but... Normally anyhow. Just thought I'd point that out.
Yes, that's right... but if you're willing to allow some of the stuff from the Complete line, you can multiclass them IF you take the appropriate feat (Devoted Performer, I think) that allows an exception to the rule you've correctly cited. If you're doing core-only, you'd have to be an ex-bard turned paladin, for example.
I think that the only thing the bard class really needs is a few new songs. Here's a few that I'd like to see added:
- Song of Doom (Ex) - Available at level 3 and 6 Perform ranks: As inspire courage but applies a penalty instead of a bonus and affects all enemies within earshot. Does not allow a save. Cannot affect creatures immune to mind-affecting effects or creatures that are deaf. Increases along with inspire courage.
- Inspire Swiftness (Su) - Available at level 11 and 14 Perform ranks: All allies within earshot gain the effects of the haste spell. This effect does not persist after the bard ceases his performance like other bardic music effects.
- Song of Discord (Ex) - Available at level 14 and 17 Perform ranks: All enemies within earshot are considered flanked by your allies. Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 bard level + CHA mod) negates. Cannot affect creatures immune to mind-affecting effects or creatures that are deaf.
- Song of Terror (Su) - Available at level 16 and 19 Perform ranks: Must be used against a creature currently under the effect of your Song of Doom (much like the suggestion ability). A bard may activate this use of bardic music as a standard action while maintaining the Song of Doom effect. The targetted creature must be within close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) and is allowed a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 bard level + CHA mod.). If the save fails, the target is panicked for as long as he can hear your Song of Doom. If the save succeeds, the creature is still shaken while under the effects of your Song of Doom (the penalties for shaken stack with the penalties from Song of Doom). This is a mind-affecting fear effect.
Of course, that's just me. :)
Dude, these sound wonderful. I am currently playing a bard in my weekly and I am having the TIME OF MY LIFE playing him. He's neutral evil(well, he's supposed to be, but the DM does not allow evil alignments because of what someone at the table did last game ::angry glare to my left), and has almost been killed on three separate occasions. He's starting to work his way into the role of party spokesperson, and makes more intimidation checks than the barbarian ever did. I'm going to see if I can take that Song of Doom!
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Inspire Swiftness (Su) - Available at level 11 and 14 Perform ranks: All allies within earshot gain the effects of the haste spell. This effect does not persist after the bard ceases his performance like other bardic music effects.
I thought I should add a caveat here: A bard can maintain the inspire swiftness effect for up to 1 round per 2 bard levels he possesses. After the duration expires, the bard may use a standard action and expend another use of bardic music to reactivate the ability if he so chooses.
This prevents the ability from being used to gain a significant boost in overland travel speeds (not that it's usually much of an issue by level 11 anyway, with overland flight available).
A bard does have a role in the party. They are buffers and secondary healers. Heck they are more versatile than Defenders in City of Heroes, since they can engage in melee, or fight at range, they can buff the party or they can heal someone. And if you really want to they have some Controller-ish aspects too, if you take the enchantment/charm spells and make quite a bit of use of the fascination song.
Taking that into consideration they could be very good in outdoor missions. Although it would be best if the characters stayed at an inn, since the spell preparation is a little noisy.
About the only thing that is "wrong" with bards is all the choices that are available.
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Most people here seem to essentially be writing bards out in combat situations, but I've seen some pretty impressive displays from a few of the bards on the campaigns we run.
Having the whip as a weapon proficiency means that with just a couple of feats bards can quite effectively stand right behind the front line and disarm or trip opponents while the fighter(s) are going to town and doing their thing, all the while buffing the party with song, and likely with their songs making them better at it at the same time.
And if you guys are looking to add some power to a bard who focuses on music, look at the seeker of the song(Can't remember off hand which book, one of the completes. Probably the adventurer or the scoundrel). They get some frightening abilities, heavy damaging effects and such as they level that use bardic music to cast and generally have a perform check set the DC(so a charismatic bard in mid levels can be throwing out hard hitting effects with saves that are near or above 40). The bard loses any arcane advancement but the songs really take over for it at that point, sounds like something a few of you would be interested in.
-Tarlane