Hey, I'm currently planning on DMing this first adventure path and I had a few questions that I couldn't find in the Player's PDF or the actual PDF for the adventure that I was curious about. So if anyone could help me out, I would appreciate it!
First up, unless I can't read, I saw no mention of what deities the nonhumans worship. Is the deity list in the Player's Guide the standard "human list" and the individual races worship their own pantheon as in most settings? ie: Elves and Corellon, Dwarves and Moradin, etc etc.
For my second question, this is more a plea for advice with my upcoming game, but here it goes. My current party is interested in genning nonstandard races, and I'm cool with allowing them run them, but I was curious about letting them in seeing as this is a new world and with little info about the said races I had no idea if allowing, for instance, a Kobold PC into the game will turn into later that "Kobolds are all Chaotic Evil in this world and ... etc" as the races get revamped like the Goblins.
Basically, I was wondering how Kobolds work in this game, and if anyone wanted to help out, where I should place Raptorans (from Races of the Wild, which I don't think is OGL so I don't think will ever be in Golarion) in this setting.
Thanks for any information/help!
From my knowledge with talking to Paizo the 20 or so Gods found in the Players Guide to Rise of the Runelords are the "core" Gods, that everyone worships not just humans. Now while I do believe there is mention of racial Gods as well, they are not huge at this point in the campaign. SO I would say it is more then safe just to have your PCs use the core Gods. I mean come on, they're great.
As for using non-standard races, well that's up to the GM. Kobolds have been somewhat reimagined, and I recommend picking up Crown of the Kobold King by Nicolas Logue (A GameMaster product for sale here on Paizo) to get a better understanding of the kobold.
And even if it did state that all kobolds are chaotic evil, should not matter. In the years of gaming I would feel it has become obvious that there are always an exception to the rule. To draw from an over used example lets go with Wizard of the Coast's Forgotten Realms Iconic, Drizzt Do'Urden. A drow who are known to be evil, who is in reality Good aligned.
Now while I am not sure there are Raptorians in the world, as I believe they might be intellectual property of WoTC, I would say that you could use them whether or not they are acceptiable. It is your home campaign, and so long as you do not try to publish or sell anything of intellectual property, you cannot bue held liable.
Hope I helped answer your questions. Good luck, and enjoy Pathfinder Chronciles' Rise of the Runelords. I know I will.
-Potantsuem
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What Kevin said.
The deities presented are worshiped by all the PHB races. Each race might depict a particular deity in its own way, but at the end of the day it's the same uber-powerful being.
We might eventually talk about non-standard PC races down the road, so feel free to do whatever works for your campaign. James Jacobs has stated that kobolds are very rare in Varisia, so a kobold PC will stand out quite a bit.
James has also mentioned that raptorans in Varisia live in the coastal mountain range.
The deities presented are worshiped by all the PHB races. Each race might depict a particular deity in its own way, but at the end of the day it's the same uber-powerful being.
Just a bit of customer feedback...and that's all it is...so take it for what it's worth. But I would have preferred one of two different approaches to the deities for non-human races.
1. Keep with the old pre-existing deities like Corellon Larethian, Moradin, and so on. If those are part of WotC's IP...then I understand not including them. And, of course, there's nothing preventing me from injecting them into my own campaign...which I intend to do anyway. But, in general, I would have preferred to see you keep these mythological "staples" around for the non-human races and develop new material for the Pathfinder world around dwarven forges to Moradin and elven shrines to Corellon. Or, failing that...
2. Create all new deities that are predominantly worshipped by the non-human races. In other words, make up a new Corellon Larethian, Moradin, and so on. Give them their own origin stories and mythology. And make that a part of the Pathfinder campaign world just as much as all the other "core" gods you have now.
I prefer one of those two approaches, because, for me, the other races are completely different cultures. As such, I want them to have their own gods and separate religions. I don't want to say they're all fully integrated into a great melting pot with humanity when it comes to theological matters. Now, having said that, I don't mind having the occasional elf or dwarf who worships Erastil or Shelyn. But, for the majority of their species, I'd prefer they have their own unique gods...which could also be worshipped by the occasional human, as well.
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
I wouldn't be suprised to see something like that happen in the future. However you are correct in assuming that Moradin and Corellon Larethian are owned by WoTC and not able to be used.
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2. Create all new deities that are predominantly worshipped by the non-human races. In other words, make up a new Corellon Larethian, Moradin, and so on. Give them their own origin stories and mythology. And make that a part of the Pathfinder campaign world just as much as all the other "core" gods you have now.
Well, there are scores of deities in Golarion, so we've only just begun talking about them all. There might indeed be such gods somewhere in there. The world is very much a work in progress. :)
Well, there are scores of deities in Golarion, so we've only just begun talking about them all. There might indeed be such gods somewhere in there. The world is very much a work in progress. :)
Exactly. Thus, I'm still holding out hope that a full-spectrum dwarven and elven (and gnomish!) pantheon can still be developed that will represent the majority religions for those races. And that's why I felt compelled to at least offer that bit of customer feedback.
--Neil
P.S. If James is down on putting together the dwarven pantheon, I can volunteer for that assignment. ;-)
P.P.S. I'd volunteer for the gnomish pantheon, but I suspect you'll have that covered fairly well. ;-)
Creative Director
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Deities like Moradin and the like are WotC's IP. We can't use them. That said, we'll certainly have deities that are more identified with the races; D1 has Droskar as one of the minor dwarven deities, for example. Our 20 core deities detailed in the Player's Guide are considered "core" because they're so heavilly worshiped, across ALL races. Certain ones are absoluetly associated with specific races (Desna with elves, for example) but for the most part they're welcoming of all races.
There will be more specialized races in the months to come, though. Never fear.
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I like the 20 core gods, and I don't see any reason why they can't be owned and adapted by the various races and cultures throughout Golarion. I think the Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms settings have done a disservice with their casting-call interpretation of godhood ("she's human, Lawful God, has blonde hair, a red pony and carries her divinity in a lunch pail") and crippled their cultural malleability. Maybe it's a side effect of their demonstrable existence, but D&D godhood should be much more expansive and mysterious.
For example, the human Desna and elven Desna could have a different appearances, lore, relationships with other gods (to the elves, she's Lemashtu's sister?) and even domains -- but still be the same god. Heck, elven Desna could have a demigod child, whereas human Desna does not. Sounds like the foundation for a gool ol' fashioned religious war. It’s these paradoxes and interpretations that make religion interesting. For me, anyway.
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For example, the human Desna and elven Desna could have a different appearances, lore, relationships with other gods (to the elves, she's Lemashtu's sister?) and even domains -- but still be the same god. Heck, elven Desna could have a demigod child, whereas human Desna does not. Sounds like the foundation for a gool ol' fashioned religious war. It’s these paradoxes and interpretations that make religion interesting. For me, anyway.
See, personally, I feel that this is the way to go.
The one thing that I dislike about Greyhawk (and this is applicable with the Forgotten Realms, as well) is the amount of deities and the different pantheons for each culture and race (with several miscellaneous gods to boot).
Compare with the real world.... The Greek, Vedic, Norse, Celtic, Slavic, etc. pantheons are essentially variations on the original pantheon worshiped by the Proto-Indo-European speakers (almost unrecognizably different from each other and the original because of the different paths of cultural and linguistic evolution, as well as the assimilation of ideas from other cultures). Even across linguistic/cultural boundaries, analogues between gods were usually sought (for instance, between the Greeks and the Egyptians, Hermes and Thoth were viewed as the same god). So, sticking with a core group of deities is actually rather intelligent and segues well with real world expectations. Besides, with deities that are provably real in D&D it becomes even more unnecessary to have separate gods for each culture/race. It kinda gets a bit crowded (and quite silly) when there are 15 different solar deities, 15 fertility deities, 12 war deities, etc.
Each culture should have its own name for each of the deities, may view the deity as a different gender than does another cultures, and may not even recognize some deities (as it isn’t present in their pantheon) or have deities that other cultures may not recognize, and even have different mythologies surrounding them. So while Jorag, for example, may be worshiped by dwarves as a masculine deity called Džolak, another culture may view Jorag as a feminine deity and call her Zhorah.
The way I see it, the “Core 20" should be the most commonly worshiped deities (regardless of cultural boundaries), with their most broadly known names (and gender representations).
The one thing that I dislike about Greyhawk (and this is applicable with the Forgotten Realms, as well) is the amount of deities and the different pantheons for each culture and race (with several miscellaneous gods to boot).
Actually, I don't mind that so much. I like a lot of variety. So more pantheons and deities are fine for me.
Compare with the real world.... The Greek, Vedic, Norse, Celtic, Slavic, etc. pantheons are essentially variations on the original pantheon worshiped by the Proto-Indo-European speakers....Each culture should have its own name for each of the deities, may view the deity as a different gender than does another cultures, and may not even recognize some deities (as it isn’t present in their pantheon) or have deities that other cultures may not recognize, and even have different mythologies surrounding them.
It's definitely more of a preference thing for me, but I do understand what you're saying. I just think you can still have a Greek, Vedic, Norse, Celtic, Slavic analogue of humans somewhere in Golarion that have different interpretations of Sarenrae, for example. I'm cool with that and totally behind the variant interpretations thing. Sects and divisions within a religious hierarchy are very cool things to replicate in a gaming world.
But, you can still have all that within just the human pantheons. You don't have to extend that outward so that elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc. -- which are different species, and not just different cultures -- all worship the same underlying deity as humans as part of their pantheon. In a nutshell, I think you can have cultural diversity when it comes to interpreting a single deity in different ways. And you can also have separate pantheons with entirely different underlying gods when it comes to cultures that are so radically different from mankind (e.g., elves, dwarves, etc.). And, on top of all of that, you can also have crossovers...meaning that, yes, you may definitely have a dwarven follower of Iomedae, or an elven priest dedicated to Desna, and a human worshipper of a predominantly elvish deity. I'm cool with all of that. Because that gives the greatest amount of diversity possible.
So, sticking with a core group of deities is actually rather intelligent and segues well with real world expectations. Besides, with deities that are provably real in D&D it becomes even more unnecessary to have separate gods for each culture/race....It kinda gets a bit crowded (and quite silly) when there are 15 different solar deities, 15 fertility deities, 12 war deities, etc.
I wouldn't suggest that the separate pantheons for non-human races seek to duplicate the full spectrum of portfolios. Just give me an iconic elven god/goddess and an iconic dwarven god, etc. Or maybe a very small handful. And that would be enough for me.
Essentially, I like to think that humans, dwarves, elves, and so on all developed culturally in their own way. And, with radically-different species like the dwarves and elves having special connections to the land in ways that humans do not, I like to think of those cultures as almost "alien" or "otherworldly" in comparison to mankind. Thus, I envision them developing culturally in different ways.
Some of it is based on their long lifespans. Some of it is based on their different way of viewing the world. As a result, I like to imagine that when they developed their religions, they did so with an eye towards an entirely different divine being in the universe...and not simply the same one that's answering the prayers of humans down the road. Also, given that you can have racial divisions within humanity, I would expect to see racial divisions within the elves, dwarves, and so on. Often these racial divisions will split off into their own cultures...not always along racial lines, but sometimes geographic, and so on...but basically, I'd expect a forest elf and a desert elf to probably have different cultural interpretations of their iconic elven god, just like I'd expect human cultures to do the same.
I just think something like that gives you a better mix. And, from a game design standpoint, I think it gives players who already expect that kind of thing (from Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and their own homebrew campaign worlds) to be able to find a definitive elven god in Golarion somewhere. And so on. But that's just my opinion. And I recognize there are quite easily several players (and therefore, Paizo customers) out there that don't want completely separate pantheons for the demihuman races. There's likely an equal amount (if not greater) who would, though. And I guess I'm attempting to speak from that segment of the gaming community who's looking for the ability to create a dwarven or elven cleric in the world of Golarion who worships an iconic deity associated with the elves...and something powerful rather than a minor power like Droskar.
Hopefully, my words make sense without coming across as argumentative.
Respectfully,
--Neil
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Creative Director
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Remember... the core 20 deities are just that: The core.
Golarion is very human-oriented at this point. Eventually, we'll be revealing the more obscure and minor deities of the world, many of whom are associated entirely with specific races. For now, though, we just don't have the time or room to detail all of these deities.
Have patience! We'll get there eventually!
Have patience! We'll get there eventually!
I know. :-)
Don't take my commentary here as strongly negative or anything. My primary point is that I (and I think at least a few others) would really like to see a major deity for each of the non-human races, rather than more minor ones. Basically, I'm looking for an iconic, deific progenitor of the elves, dwarves, and so on. Something along the lines of Corellon Larethian, Moradin, etc. And nothing more than that. I don't need a complete elven and dwarven pantheon that rehashes every portfolio already covered by the "core 20" you've introduced.
What I do need is one major deity that serves as the iconic divine power associated with each non-human race. That way, players can create an elven or dwarven priest of their people's primary deity...and not just have it be a reinterpretation of the same deity that humans also happen to worship. I think that's what's missing right now from the all-encompassing "core deities" of Golarion.
You've still got plenty of time to introduce something like that. And I'm a patient...if not hopeful...person. ;-)
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
According to the SRD, any god of at least rank 1 (ie at least 300 worshippers) could take the ability (namely Alter Form) to look like pretty much any race they choose. It strikes me as fairly likely to have happened by now. :)
PLEASE, don't ad any more gods to Golarion. If you need obscure cults or racial "minor" powers just use demon lords or powerful angels or something else that works for the core deities. If you start adding gods to the different races or whenever you need something different it wil quickly get out of hand.
Surely, the gods have proxies and powerful beings that work for them. Couldn't some of these beings be seen as minor gods by some groups without expanding the pantheon?
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NSpicer, I see where you're coming from, but you're presenting your case like the gods are somehow hand-me-downs from humans to the other races. There's no reason it couldn't work the other way. Half of the gods on the list could be the original patron deities of non-human races whose worship has trickled down to humans and morphed with regular contact.
They could have been non-human gods first :)
PLEASE, don't ad any more gods to Golarion. If you need obscure cults or racial "minor" powers just use demon lords or powerful angels or something else that works for the core deities. If you start adding gods to the different races or whenever you need something different it wil quickly get out of hand.
Surely, the gods have proxies and powerful beings that work for them. Couldn't some of these beings be seen as minor gods by some groups without expanding the pantheon?
Why do you see this as a good thing, Bavix? The SRD gives a lot of scope for relatively powerful and weak deities, and suggests that powerful beings working for gods who get seen as minor gods by some groups eventually acquire divine ranks of their own. It looks like what you're suggesting would be a break from the core rules that the Paizo folks have said that they're using.
Not that changing the rules in inherently a bad thing, but I'm curious to know why you think that it's desirable in this case.