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Amen!Y'know, model railroading is still out there and still has its devotees.
When I was a kid, gaming was an even more obscure and nerds-only activity than it is now.
These days, model railroading is considerably more obscure than roleplaying games. But somehow, model railroading still has print magazines.
-The Gneech
... and model railroading is a dying hobby...
What was the point of the argument? ;-)Greetings,
Günther
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Actually, the edition neutral thing referred to a lack of crunch in favor of fluff. It has been explicitly stated that they believe conversions between editions will be difficult if not impossible. One of the designers (sorry, I don't have the link) blogged that they do not even plan to offer conversion rules at this time.Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing remains to be seen.
You are both right and wrong (if it comes to what was revealed at GenCon):
Right: It is difficult if not impossible to convert everything from 3.5 to 4.0. How should you achieve this? In may to july 2008 the core rules will be published. How are you to model five years worth of supplementary rules with just the core rules?
Wrong: This doesn't mean that you can't convert core rule characters. The complexity of the rule set is surveillable, and WotC stresses that 4e is still a d20 product. Right now I am still optimistic that this is not just a marketing trick.
Epic levels (i.e. level 21 to 30) will be integrated, racial feats will grow part of a character, magic will see a refurbishing, encounters are supposed to grow more dynamic, and fighers will grow more specialized. It only depends on how much tinkering is done on stat blocks (both for npcs and monsters).
Greetings,
Günther
The problem is, where will the line finally be drawn? Are we just going to hear this again come 5E? Seriously. If I dive into 4E for the "Great Cause" as Sebastian has elegantly put it, how will that apply when 3 to 4 years into 4E, WotC is just going to start working on 5E.How does it apply then?
If 4E is going to be so awesome, then I'd like to see it stick around for more than 5 years...more than 10 years...maybe even more than 15 years. If I'm going to end up seeing 5E after five years of 4E, what's the point?
I want the hobby to corrode. Because then Hasbro might actually sell off D&D. And then someone who cares about the fundamentals of the game will finally take over.
...and the new company will release a new edition of the game to commemorate their taking over ... and because the trade mark is pretty much worthless if you can't sell stuff with it and the core books are the big sellers.
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A wise man once showed me the error in my ways (Thank you, F2K, for the perspective WAY back when).
Compare D&D to any other hobby you may have.
Golf, going to the movies 2 times a month, etc.
In golf you need to buy some clubs, balls, bag, you need to pay to play on a course, etc. You have an on-going expense (usually more of one than D&D) in order to play 2 times a month for 1/2 a day. With the lesser investment of D&D, most people get once a week or more at around 4+ hours each session. Much more time for less expense than golfing.
Same with movies, anyone going to the movies and not dropping $20-30 is sneaking in food and drink and hitting a cheap time. Do that 2 times a month. 4-5 hours of movie viewing in a theatre is costing $40. I can spend that on D&D and get 1 four hour session a week for the month and play for 16-20 hours a month.
People complaining about buying the books again would still be buying more books, just different like the Complete Knife-Chucker or the Grimlock Compendium.
The point for me is not the continued expense of D&D, it is the way the game will change.
I am still gonna spend what I spend on the hobby.
However my concern is that the hobby is going to become a parody of World of Warcraft in play style with all the power-ups, quick leveling, etc. Still not liking that leveling up is so fast now, the lower levels become a blur. This is where I am voicing concern.
I love what I saw in regards to the Digital aspect of D&D 4E. The character creater is sweet, the virtual table is awesome. I won't use it if I don't own the program though so if this stuff is a subscription, then it is less than useless to me. I have 2 kids, a wife with a great salary and I can't justify renting a program. If I don't pay I lose access to my program? What's next? Microsoft makes us pay monthly for Windows? Quickens wants a monthly fee? Sorry, couldn't pay my Adobe bill so I can't view any PDFs this month. This is an increasing problem that WILL get to this stage if people don't wake up and stop paying to rent programs. I won't play MMORPGs because of the fee involved. I don't want to pay $XX for a game then pay $XX dollars a month to play it. That just sounds like blatant money-grubbing to me. Offer me a home version that I can use offline and I will buy it. BUY IT. Not rent it.
FH
I once calculated how much money I spent on D&D over the past 27 years and how much time I've spent playing it and it ended up being about a $1 an hour or so. I'll buy 4th edition books....if it never grabs me and I play 3.5 until I'm in the old folks home, then my investment dollars will be stretched even farther. Bill makes an excellent point about the the value of the RPG hobby to him and I agree.
EDIT: Posted this while Fakey was posting his reply.....just goes to show you that FH and I think very much alike, and at the same time...scary isn't it?
Hi everyone,
When my son turned 13 I started looking around for a game we could play together. We'd really enjoyed Heroscape (Hasbro again!) so I thought D&D would be a great step up.
He took to the game immediately. What I found interesting was that his school friends had never heard of D&D and really weren't interested, especially because of the reading involved. We resorted to explaining things rather than making them read the parts of the PHB that were relevant to their characters. We have a good campaign going now, but it's still really hard to compete with video games.
Video games rule the entertainment world of children these days. If D&D is to survive it must adjust to this new paradigm. If we expect 14 year olds to get interested in the game and keep it alive, D&D must become a game you can play on the computer. Eventually, these children will adapt to the more sophisticated role-playing, table-top format we know and love, but right now the best way to attract new players is through the internet and computers.
Eventually, these children will adapt to the more sophisticated role-playing, table-top format we know and love.
I hope so, but to be honest....I doubt it. I think Wizards if off the mark with hoping that the DI will deliver the same "instant gratification" that video games delivers.
The DI interests me only for the fact that I can potentially play D&D again with some of my long time gaming buddies who have moved away.....or finally get to play with folks like FH....or play in Steve Greer's game more than once a year....or get a chance to stomp about Eberron with Koldoon and his gaming group....the only regret I would have then is that I might still not ever see Ultradan's gaming garage or drink beers with him and his gaming group.
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EDIT: Posted this while Fakey was posting his reply.....just goes to show you that FH and I think very much alike, and at the same time...scary isn't it?
Funny, huh? It's weird I was reading the other posts and that just came to me and I had to respond with the eye-opening you gave me a couple years back. I still use that analogy on all my gaming buddies to tell them to quit b*&^hing about the cost of D&D.
It is one of the cheapest hobbies to be in. I spend about $50 a month($600 a year), I get about 200 hours of play a year(4 hours a week, roughly) not counting the prep time for DMing and playing with my PC(s). So my D&D costs me around $3 an hour to play. If I gamed more my cost goes down. I am not counting other time like planning, making scenery, scouring books, time spent here, but if I did then I would be have 1000hrs+ a year.
Compare that value to any other hobby. Betcha they don't even compare.
FH
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I think that WotC are probably a bit more savvy than some people are giving them credit. Superficially, the DI looks a bit like a MMORPG. But it still requires a DM, which is the massive difference. In my view, they are "simply" trying to leverage the gaming table using PC and internet technology. And this has some nice side-effects:
- I really dug the lighting thing. Now the PCs really can only see as far as their light sources permit;
- bespoke "minis"
- you can play at a distance. Let's face it, a lot of people have problems finding a game unless they live in a big urban area. PbP is great..... But this is actually playing in real time.
I'm not up on what is out there particularly, but it strikes me that if WotC did not do this, someone else would fairly soon (assuming they haven't already). Might as well get the big IT budget that a large firm like Hasbro can conjure up and get it to work properly and look nice. While I appreciate that some people don't like the idea of paying for this stuff much, very little in life is free.
But I emphatically don't see this as an attempt to grab market share from the MMORPGs. This is more a case of adapting similar technology to enhance the D&D experience, or at least move it out of the 1970s (the core game is still a bunch of guys sitting around a table with books and scrappy bits of paper, like it was when I was a kid). The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, of course - none of us have used it yet. But I don't see this as dumbing down to a WoW-style sort of game. The IT won't do that - that will depend on what 4E comes up with.
Amen!Y'know, model railroading is still out there and still has its devotees.
When I was a kid, gaming was an even more obscure and nerds-only activity than it is now.
These days, model railroading is considerably more obscure than roleplaying games. But somehow, model railroading still has print magazines.
-The Gneech
... and model railroading is a dying hobby...
What was the point of the argument? ;-)Greetings,
Günther
Actually, I have several friends who would dispute that. But if we accept at face value the assertion that model railroading is a dying hobby, that makes me even MORE annoyed that they still manage to have a print magazine and we don't.
-The Gneech
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I think that WotC are probably a bit more savvy than some people are giving them credit....
But I emphatically don't see this as an attempt to grab market share from the MMORPGs.
I wanted to just address the two sentences quoted from your post as you, I, and several others have been covering this from thread to thread. Wotc is very savvy. They know that Magic is their cash cow, and that minis are profitable. Why? They both have short shelf lives and recurring costs.
1- Magic editions go out of circulation (at least in tournament rules) very fast, essentially invalidating past purchases. Both Magic and the Mini line use small, frequest expansions and random booster packs to drive higher sales than otherwise would be seen. Traditionally D&D didn't have this feature.
2- The DI is NOT an attempt to grab market share from MMOs. That's simply Wizards obfuscating their real motive. The real goal is to create a monthly, recurring revenue stream with very little production overhead. Very few people would pay 10 bucks a month for the DI without Dungeon or Dragon content. By grabbing those products and packing them in with the Online tools, they create an item attractive enough that they can convince many people to sign onto the monthly fee wagon. And now that they no longer have to pay for printing, postage, or warehouse space for the magazines, their margins are substantially hihger...
D&D has always avoided the nickel and dime effect on its fan's wallet. Wotc (or Hasbro - lets be honest here) has finally found a way to have their cake and eat it too. We still buy all the books we did before AND we now pay a monthly fee.
D&D ala WoW may draw a new generation to the game but will most likely alienate those who have loved the game for many years... especially if 4th edition doesn't resemble the D&D they're intimately familiar with.
The question is, will the MMORPG-culled initiates remain loyal customers as the old-timers have (until now, perhaps)? Will their short-attention spans and need for instant gratification be properly fed by D&D on steroids with all sorts of bells and whistles?
I think not. The cost of books + costs of D&D Insider will outstrip the cost of a typical MMORPG and playing via Insider's interface will never be a match for the quick action and graphical superiority of a true video game. D&D is about shared storytelling, about gathering friends to the table to game together and unwind. If that is lost, a BIG part of D&D is lost with it.
I really think this battle is being fought in an ass-backwards manner. Make a fun, quality game that builds on the strengths of D&D's previous incarnations. Include logical innovations that simplify and streamline what is cludgy and/or unbalanced in 3.x and the game would be improved while retaining those elements that make the game D&D. If that fails to keep people playing the game, then let the game die with dignity.
This isn't about D&D surviving... because it will ALWAYS be around, it's about Hasbro milking D&D for all that it's worth.
D&D has always avoided the nickel and dime effect on its fan's wallet. Wotc (or Hasbro - lets be honest here) has finally found a way to have their cake and eat it too. We still buy all the books we did before AND we now pay a monthly fee.
Not me... I steadfastly refuse to EVER pay for D&D Insider. The relegation of Dungeon & Dragon to purely digital formats (that are effectively rented material) is what made me sign up for Pathfinder and what killed my enthusiasm to purchase future WotC products.
That's why I hope that Paizo and 3rd party publishers shun 4th edition. There is room for improvement in 3rd edition... but the solutions that 4th edition have come up with aren't the answer.
If d20 publishers teamed up to build a better, OGL d20 fantasy game I'm fairly certain they could collectively come up with a far better alternative than 4th edition.
2- The DI is NOT an attempt to grab market share from MMOs. That's simply Wizards obfuscating their real motive. The real goal is to create a monthly, recurring revenue stream with very little production overhead. Very few people would pay 10 bucks a month for the DI without Dungeon or Dragon content. By grabbing those products and packing them in with the Online tools, they create an item attractive enough that they can convince many people to sign onto the monthly fee wagon. And now that they no longer have to pay for printing, postage, or warehouse space for the magazines, their margins are substantially hihger...
Exactly. Dragon/Dungeon (and Dungeon particularly) were lauded for so long as "the best value in gaming" that they basically decided it was time to make up the difference -- while chopping production costs as much as they could.
One of the dirty little secrets of the dot-com era: "Electronic publishing" = "hand over printing costs and headaches directly to the consumer so we can charge almost-as-much as we would before, look like we're lowering prices, and don't have to deal with the annoyances."
WotC's just gone a step further and actually RAISED the price instead of lowering it. :-`
-The Gneech
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My official position is meh. I think the DI is cool. The hardest thing about playing DnD has always been finding enough people to play DnD.
The first rule of D&D Club is;
you don't talk about D&D Club.
Especially while in earshot of that pretty girl you want to impress, or the clique of 'cool' people (you know; the ones who never seem to actually DO anything, but stand around being, well, coooool). Or in front of the football team (unless you want your head flushed down the john, and your rulebooks in a tree...).
Keep yourself safe, keep it secret.
Or at least that's the way it used to be for a lot of gamers, especially in the bad old days of 'satanism' scares, suicide profiling, the D&D cartoon ("Oooh, So yooou're the Dungeon Master, then? Where's your uuunicorn...?")and tedious urban legends about bands of D&D players getting lost in the sewers (probably eaten by the hundreds of giant albino alligators that undoubtedly hunt down there...).
The kids of today have a real advantage over us veterans, in that fantasy and sci-fi is far more mainstream than it ever was for us.
There are whole TV channels dedicated to this stuff; I grew up with 3 TV channels, until I was 12, and they used to go off the air at midnight.
Multiplex cinemas can afford to screen independent, foreign, underground, or experimental films on a dedicated screen, instead of having to squeeze them in, apologetically, between mainstream brain-rot.
DVDs can be ordered from worldwide vendors, over the internet, so exciting, deserving series can attract followers via word of mouth, without having to rely on the whims of a fly-by-night TV exec, or suffer the capricious wrath of a censoring politician in election year.
No-one bats a eye at a LotR poster, or a Star Wars backpack, yet items such as those would have been an invitation to a kicking at my school or in my neighborhood.
If any of that strikes a chord with you, then you're probably an old-school gamer, who had to put up with a lot of crap, from concerned parents, church groups, and teachers, plus ignorant shitheads looking for a punchbag.
Old habits die hard, and it's all too easy to assume that the same old rules apply, when they don't. The world is far more accomodating and forgiving of alternative hobbies and lifestyles. There are far more avenues to finding new players, and you have to explore them. Use your gaming shop, scout the wargames/military modelling clubs. Use messageboards such as this. Even if it means carrying a d20 in your pocket as a 'secret membership badge', to break the ice when fishing for change (they'll either recognise it, and say "Wahey! Fellow Gamer!", or they'll go "What the **** is that!?" Either way, your foot's in the door...).
If WOTC having an on-line community helps gamers get together, then that in itself is worth commending. Such a site could be far more comprehensive than any site run by an individual publishing or distributing company, since everyone who buys into the next incarnation of the D&D game will be invited to register, with the incentive of extra rules, scenarios and digital tools.
Don't let's go back to the bad old days, when 2 or more gaming groups could inhabit the same academic year, and never even know of the other's existence (not as unlikely as it sounds...).
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Actually, I have several friends who would dispute that. But if we accept at face value the assertion that model railroading is a dying hobby, that makes me even MORE annoyed that they still manage to have a print magazine and we don't.
-The Gneech
Hello John,
actually my father and my uncle are model railroaders to different extents. Besides there are about half a dozen monthly model railroading magazines available in Germany, one of them even some kind of brand exclusive (-> Maerklin company).
There is one difference, though.
During my father's generation next to every boy had a model railroad.
Even during its boom time (at least here in Germany) rpgs were less popular. Then there is the minor fact that model railroading is today a very strange hobby, but was by then supposed to be "educational" ("the boys learn something about electricity"), whereas D&D was slightly more disputed.
Longevity and compatibility is another subject:
Companies introduced new track systems, created ever new locomotives, but you can still use fifty year old HO locomotives today. The only major change was digitilization during the early 90ies. But if you expend some euros, your old locomotives are fit for the digital age.
Compare the rpg industry to this: You'd need one ruleset which is ever improved upon and which is always backwards compatible (I know the comparision is wrong in several ways). D20 could have been something like this with 3.x as a steady improvement. We will see how dramatic changes to 4.0 will be.
One thing is obvious in both industries, though: Customers are aging and dying. The number of railroading magazines decreased, the number of model railroading companies here shrunk even more dramatically - a lot of companies shut down during the last ten years. The hobby was introduced some twenty years before D&D, so you can guess, for how much longer D&D would prevail, if no new customers are attracted to it (-> above discussions).
Sorry for rambling. You see, I got somewhat in touch with that other hobby, too. ;-)
Greetings,
Günther
Edit:
Maybe it is an advantage of D&D fans, that they/ we are able to adapt more easily to new technological chances. Most model railroaders even scorn computer usage, although it does facilitate things a lot. Have a guess how many children still play with model railroads by now: zero.
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Hi everyone,
When my son turned 13 I started looking around for a game we could play together. We'd really enjoyed Heroscape (Hasbro again!) so I thought D&D would be a great step up.
He took to the game immediately. What I found interesting was that his school friends had never heard of D&D and really weren't interested, especially because of the reading involved. We resorted to explaining things rather than making them read the parts of the PHB that were relevant to their characters. We have a good campaign going now, but it's still really hard to compete with video games.
Video games rule the entertainment world of children these days. If D&D is to survive it must adjust to this new paradigm. If we expect 14 year olds to get interested in the game and keep it alive, D&D must become a game you can play on the computer. Eventually, these children will adapt to the more sophisticated role-playing, table-top format we know and love, but right now the best way to attract new players is through the internet and computers.
This is a good point.
And I start to think, that we don't talk about a generation problem: My current group consists of people age 28 to 45. None of them ever read all of the PH rules. None of them. Have a guess how willing they were to buy any supplements during the last five years.As long as I explain things to them and provide entertaining adventures they are happy. Now or then they will do some web research, approach me and say "What do you think about this PrC". But that's it.
All of them are in relationships, some of them have family and some jobs with quite some responsibility. I think, it is not just a matter of age. There aren't that many people who are willing/ able to spend as much time for the hobby as most people here do. Hey, just measure the time all of you spend on these messageboards! ;-)
In this regard WotC seems to have a good instinct: The new core rules are supposed to be less heavy on text, less heavy on special rules, and therefore maybe more easily accessible for players without as much D&D time as we have.
There are precedences. Even old time D&D players sometimes long for simplicity. Castles & Crusades is one example, I read about another one which is based on d20 but dispenses with most of the special rules. So let's see how well they do their job. As long as my ("more complicated") 3.5 material stays usable without too much reworking needed, I am with 4e.
I have to be realistic. I just moved to a different country and any new group I join after may 2008 is likely to use the new rule set.
Greetings,
Günther
These days, model railroading is considerably more obscure than roleplaying games. But somehow, model railroading still has print magazines.-The Gneech
Hey, maybe someone should make a print magazine about dnd?
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(...)
I think not. The cost of books + costs of D&D Insider will outstrip the cost of a typical MMORPG and playing via Insider's interface will never be a match for the quick action and graphical superiority of a true video game. D&D is about shared storytelling, about gathering friends to the table to game together and unwind. If that is lost, a BIG part of D&D is lost with it.
As I mentioned above: At least for my group so far all of the descriptions of today's teenagers fit, too - and they are age 28 to about age 45. Not everyone plays D&D with as much intensity as the readers of these boards do (even my gf just keeps wondering about the amount of time I spend on this hobby!).
(...)
I really think this battle is being fought in an ass-backwards manner. Make a fun, quality game that builds on the strengths of D&D's previous incarnations. Include logical innovations that simplify and streamline what is cludgy and/or unbalanced in 3.x and the game would be improved while retaining those elements that make the game D&D. If that fails to keep people playing the game, then let the game die with dignity.
As far as I understand, WotC does exactly what you want them to do. But by now I sound like Sebastian (and I hate to admit that).
1. The rules are streamlined (high level play being facilitated, grappling rules being taken care of, increased attractiveness of low level characters to name a few).2. DnDInsider isn't mandatory. Online play isn't mandatory.
And of course you are right: Offering information via DnDInsider is cheaper for them, gives them a reliable monthly source of income, and gives them direct control over the contents (r.i.p., analogue Dungeon and Dragon).
Whether this means the death of classical supplement rule books stays to be seen.
Greetings,
Günther
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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WotC's just gone a step further and actually RAISED the price instead of lowering it. :-`
-The Gneech
Have they given pricing, or do you mean that the price is increased because the cost of printing is now on the side of the subscriber?
I will likely subscribe to the DI if it is less than $20 per month and will be doing so mostly due to the online table top and other tools (assuming they work). There's very little chance that I will subscribe to Dragon/Dungeon by themselves, particularly if their price range is similar to that of the printed magazines. That being said, they've got a few months to change my mind with regards to the new format.
Me, the reason I play D&D is for the gathering of friends at my house and the interaction the game creates. So, in truth, any version of the game would probably give the same result. I probably (I always say probably, cause we never know) won't get into the fourth edition, because the third gives us everything we want already.
Others play for the full experience and the game mechanics, so I would understand why some would decide to get the fourth edition as soon as it comes out. New rules, new combat system, new experience.
I guess what it all comes down to is why we play the game in the first place...
Ultradan
I take the Dan's point - but I have quite nice little community feel with the guys I PbP with. Never met them, but would call them friends.
Oh, don't get me wrong... Online play is quite exciting (I play online games too), playing with half a dozen other people from all over the globe is something incredible, the way I look at it. It just fills a different need (for me, anyway).
Ultradan
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I want the hobby to corrode. Because then Hasbro might actually sell off D&D. And then someone who cares about the fundamentals of the game will finally take over.Precisely!
Everyone go buy a bunch of Paizo stuff they can start saving their money!
I couldn't think of any better hands. But then again, I'm too afraid they'd get bought up by some predatory corporate beast (as did WotC by Hasbro). Bad things happen to good companies when that happens.
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Except without the colorful commentary and insults. But that can come with time. Admitting that I am right is the first step.
As far as I understand, WotC does exactly what you want them to do. But by now I sound like Sebastian (and I hate to admit that).
It's not that you are right but the way you make others know it.
Respect is seldom wrong. So don't wait for insults of mine.Greetings,
Günther
Me, the reason I play D&D is for the gathering of friends at my house and the interaction the game creates. So, in truth, any version of the game would probably give the same result. I probably (I always say probably, cause we never know) won't get into the fourth edition, because the third gives us everything we want already.
I guess what it all comes down to is why we play the game in the first place...
Ultradan
that is exactly my (and my friends cup o' tea).
We started playing again for fun after a very long pause (AD&D vets).probably some 8 years or so.
we play again for a period of 2 years now.
We even have some new gamers added to our group.
1 player who tried 3rd ed. a long time ago but wasn't in the 'right group' then.
And two all new (fairly) young players.
(the goups ages range from 16 to 32)
to come to the point I quess we stay playing 3.5 for a long time cause it still has not revealed all it secrets in my opinion.
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I'll echo Sebastian here: I got into gaming on my own, based on browsing the books at mall bookstores, before I knew anyone else who played. However, that was 25 years ago, and things are probably quite different today.
My mum bought me the basic (pre-Mentzer) set when I was younger. But I never played the game until much later, when I was in middle school and met some fellow geeks who played. So, really I was brought into the game by friends, but had a prior familiarity with the game.
WotC's just gone a step further and actually RAISED the price instead of lowering it. :-`
-The Gneech
Have they given pricing, or do you mean that the price is increased because the cost of printing is now on the side of the subscriber?
I will likely subscribe to the DI if it is less than $20 per month and will be doing so mostly due to the online table top and other tools (assuming they work). There's very little chance that I will subscribe to Dragon/Dungeon by themselves, particularly if their price range is similar to that of the printed magazines. That being said, they've got a few months to change my mind with regards to the new format.
Here's what I posted in the 4dventure thread (sneakily yoinked from the 4th edition FAQ on the Wizard boards):
What will the cost be of D&D Inside, what will the benefits be?
D&D Insider will cost more than a magazine subsciption but less than an MMO. The precise figure hasn't been announced (or decided). For this monthly fee you get:
- Online Dragon and Dungeon magazine content (3 updates per week which then get fodled together into monthly issues as well)
- DM Tools
- Character Generator with all the rules from all the books wired in plus the visual aspects from the video we posted
- D&D Game Table unlimited access for using the 'Net to connect players to play D&DIn addition, there will be ways to "pay as you go" and access these features without being a monthly subscriber, paying a small amount for one session at the game table for example.
In addition, all books will come with a code that you can type in to get an e-version of the book (searchable, readable on your laptop, etc). D&D Insider subscribers will also see all the content from that book unlocked in the various Insider databases once they type in that code as well.
There will still be some free web content on the D&D site.
As far as monthly subscriptions to Gleemax goes, there will be several subscriptions available that gain access to premium content just like the way D&D Insider works, but all the community support / social networking functionality will be free. Another example is a monthly subscription to gain access to play all the games in our Board Game Portal.
Have they given pricing, or do you mean that the price is increased because the cost of printing is now on the side of the subscriber?
I will likely subscribe to the DI if it is less than $20 per month and will be doing so mostly due to the online table top and other tools (assuming they work). There's very little chance that I will subscribe to Dragon/Dungeon by themselves, particularly if their price range is similar to that of the printed magazines. That being said, they've got a few months to change my mind with regards to the new format.
The price I've seen bandied about was $9.95/mo plus a "nominal fee" (exact amount as yet TBA) for each book you unlock, but I don't have a direct link handy. That's for the whole shebang, not just the Dragon/Dungeon piece.
Thus, $120/yr to rent unprinted Dragon/Dungeon, DM software (which I gather is dungeon maps made of placeables), the virtual table, and 10-character chargen, all online via the WotC servers.
Compared to (IIRC) $60/yr for print versions of Dragon/Dungeon, $30 one-time outlay for E-Tools (permanently installed on my hard drive) + one-time $6 per data module (also permanently installed on my hard drive), and $3 for a pad of graph paper at the grocery store, for me at least is way more than I'm interested in spending.
I would -almost- be tempted if the Dragon/Dungeon content were print AND online. Then I'd feel like I was actually getting something for my money. As it is, the D.I. feels to me like WotC is trying to charge me for air at a premium price.
-The Gneech
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thanks GG.
The price I've seen bandied about was $9.95/mo plus a "nominal fee" (exact amount as yet TBA) for each book you unlock, but I don't have a direct link handy. That's for the whole shebang, not just the Dragon/Dungeon piece.
Ah. For some reason I was mentally comparing the price of an annual subscription to Dragon/Dungeon to the $9.95 per month.
I guess what it comes down to is whether the $9.95 per month is worth it for the features offered. The value of the content of Dragon/Dungeon is definitely lower for me if not in print.
Compared to (IIRC) $60/yr for print versions of Dragon/Dungeon, $30 one-time outlay for E-Tools (permanently installed on my hard drive) + one-time $6 per data module (also permanently installed on my hard drive), and $3 for a pad of graph paper at the grocery store, for me at least is way more than I'm interested in spending.
I think Dragon/Dungeon is more like $70/yr, and, to be fair, you should probably also include the cost of something like Fantasy Grounds, but that's just being picky on my part. The base analysis of renting vs. buying is still spot on.
I guess for me, it still boils down to the services I am purchasing. $10/month for a useable database of my D&D books, the virtual tabletop, and the character generator strikes me as reasonable. The content is gravy - though I can't say that I would buy it on its own.
But then again, I do have a subscription to Pathfinder/Game Mastery becasue I want the pdfs...
Anyway, I'll almost certainly convert to 4e (barring something really wacky and unexpected), and I'll probably pony up to the DI on the basis of the non-content elements.
I think Dragon/Dungeon is more like $70/yr, and, to be fair, you should probably also include the cost of something like Fantasy Grounds, but that's just being picky on my part. The base analysis of renting vs. buying is still spot on.
This is true. To be honest, I didn't know a comparable product to put in there 'cos I've never been interested in the virtual tabletop model. So yes, that should be included.
I wasn't sure about the Dragon/Dungeon price, and of course it's not listed on the website any more. When I first subscribed, it was something like $24/year for each magazine -- but that was some years ago now so I guesstimated upwards.
-The Gneech
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That's why I hope that Paizo and 3rd party publishers shun 4th edition. There is room for improvement in 3rd edition... but the solutions that 4th edition have come up with aren't the answer.
If d20 publishers teamed up to build a better, OGL d20 fantasy game I'm fairly certain they could collectively come up with a far better alternative than 4th edition.
You mean you've already seen 4e and made that determination?
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The price I've seen bandied about was $9.95/mo plus a "nominal fee" (exact amount as yet TBA) for each book you unlock, but I don't have a direct link handy. That's for the whole shebang, not just the Dragon/Dungeon piece.
Thus, $120/yr to rent unprinted Dragon/Dungeon, DM software (which I gather is dungeon maps made of placeables), the virtual table, and 10-character chargen, all online via the WotC servers.
Compared to (IIRC) $60/yr for print versions of Dragon/Dungeon, $30 one-time outlay for E-Tools (permanently installed on my hard drive) + one-time $6 per data module (also permanently installed on my hard drive), and $3 for a pad of graph paper at the grocery store, for me at least is way more than I'm interested in spending.
The $9.95/month price for D&DI that's going around is complete supposition; WotC hasn't given any numbers yet, so we have yet to be able to make price comparisons. Also, the 10-character limit is apparently a myth.
As for the rent vs. own issue, we still don't know how that's going to work for D&DI. From what I've read so far, it seems like you probably will be able to retain most of your resources (magazine issues, characters, etc.) if your membership lapses, in some form (printouts, PDFs, etc.). Clarification on this matter will have a big impact on the perceived value of D&DI membership.
Dragon and Dungeon subscriptions were close to $40/year each, say $75-$80/year for both (plus sales tax (in WA at least) and shipping).
You mean you've already seen 4e and made that determination?That's why I hope that Paizo and 3rd party publishers shun 4th edition. There is room for improvement in 3rd edition... but the solutions that 4th edition have come up with aren't the answer.
If d20 publishers teamed up to build a better, OGL d20 fantasy game I'm fairly certain they could collectively come up with a far better alternative than 4th edition.
Go to Wizard's site and read about some of the innovations. Listen to the interviews posted on YouTube with 4th edition developer Andy Collins.
There is A LOT that WotC isn't saying about 4th edition but, at the same time, there has been a lot of information released.
Others have thoughtfully taken the time to compile the information that has been released about 4th edition and, based on everything I've read and heard I'm not at all impressed with the direction the game is taking.
Why do I think that 3rd party publishers like Paizo, Green Ronin, Malhavoc, and Goodman Games could do a decent, OGL 3rd edition upgrade? Because they have good track records both in terms of the products they have released and in their customer support.
Don't knock me and adopt a sarcastic tone because I'm not skipping for joy at the thought of WotC drastically changing a game that I've enjoying for over 25 years, especially when my reaction is based on the information that WotC is releasing.
I don't even know who I'm replying to since this thread is so long, but I think there are a few things that are obvious to anyone who's gone through the previous conversions (to 2nd, 3.0, 3.5, etc).
LOTS of people complain about having to buy new books and changing over. People fear and resent change and extra costs. Most of those people are now playing 3.5. Some quit. I did for a few years, but when I wanted to get back in, everyone was already on 3.5, so I learned. And, on the whole, the changes have improved the game.
I'm not going to rush out and buy 4.0. But if they fixed the grappling or item creation rules, I'll adopt them. Why wouldn't I? While the laptop tools are cool, I don't think it really makes the DM's job easier or the game more efficient. My group probably won't have as much fun playing with computers on the table, period. I've played by WebCam when I was out of town and it's a much less fulfilling experience.
If 4.0 sucks and no one buys it, they'll either release 5.0 or stop supporting d&d. If it's good (which I would say is likely, based on history), people will buy it and the game will thrive. It's completely pointless to say you will buy a bad product or boycott a good one. If you are desperate to support the game, send WotC a check. Or start a game in your community. If you have kids, teach them. Use whatever version you like. If you can't afford the new books, or don't want to spend more money, don't. Use your old ones. You can still support the game without shelling for every new product that hits the shelves. At some point you'll probably want to replace torn or battered books anyway, and will likely buy the newest version.
This is not a decision that has to made in May, 2008.
I don't even know who I'm replying to
Pobably cause of your high wisdom score ;)
And now serious. Your post contains a lott of wise words, I think most people can find truth in there.
Specially now the dust has settled somewhat......
Director of Narrative
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Howdy folks. I just got home from a Con-tastic time and had been thinking about one thing in particular since this whole 4e hubbub infected these message boards and the community as a whole.
I didn't grow up with the shiniest life. Saying money was tight would have been an understatement in my house, and the first few years of my gaming experience I was the kid that borrowed everything from his fellow gamers. Half of the 1e and 2e books I had, I shoplifted. I'm not proud.
Although now, having used my head to get ahead, I can afford to have a fair portion of my monthly budget go towards gaming, I can't help but think of the little smart kids that just so happened to be born into a screwed-up tax bracket. I know that as soon as I mention that not everyone has computers and internet access some of you will already be hitting "reply" to inform me of libraries and other public portals. I'm just saying that this new move furthers this separation between haves and have-nots, marginalizes a demographic of gamers that already have a hard time keeping up with the Joneses and feeds some sort of techno-elitism that quite frankly makes me queasy.
I'm probably wrong and [sarcasm] I shiver with anticipation for all of you to shove that in my face. [/sarcasm]
*F2K, is 19 years long enough that I can't be tried for my crimes in Texas? ;)*
Thus, $120/yr to rent unprinted Dragon/Dungeon, DM software (which I gather is dungeon maps made of placeables), the virtual table, and 10-character chargen, all online via the WotC servers.
-The Gneech
I'll pay that. That's not even one round of golf at a resort golf course.
Half of the 1e and 2e books I had, I shoplifted. I'm not proud.
*F2K, is 19 years long enough that I can't be tried for my crimes in Texas? ;)*
Misdemeanor theft has a 2 year statute of limitations. Felony theft is generally 5 years unless it's from an estate, then it's 10 years, I believe. The only crime that carries no statute of limitation is murder and some selected aggravated offenses, plus treason in some states.
I was on a tight budget when I grew up too. I spent every Saturday in high school doing yard work, cutting grass, cleaning pools and doing basic maintenance in the apartment complex where I lived so I could raise money for recreational activities, including D&D. Plus I had to give my mom money to pay the electric bill or we'd be in the dark every month.
Last year I spent about $700 on D&D, including a hefty chunk of miniatures. This year it'll probably be the same, as I'm cutting back on source books to budget for Pathfinder and GameMastery modules. It's worth it to me.
How many bullets for your assault rifle is that?
Right now, about 500, since the war is gobbling them all up and the prices are up. I used to be able to get about 1000 rounds of surplus ammo for about $150.
Mr. Bush, please stop the war, so your gun nuts back home can go back to spraying the countryside without breaking the bank. Thank you
:)
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Director of Narrative
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I was on a tight budget when I grew up too. I spent every Saturday in high school doing yard work, cutting grass, cleaning pools and doing basic maintenance in the apartment complex where I lived so I could raise money for recreational activities, including D&D. Plus I had to give my mom money to pay the electric bill or we'd be in the dark every month.
I feel you. I have had a steady job since I was 12. Most of it was odd-jobs, but from late 13-early 14 I had illegal jobs where I either lied about my age to work, or worked for unscrupulous folks who didn't mind paying an underage kid far less than minimum wage to do the work their older employees were doing. I lived without electricity week-on week-off for a little while too. Once again, I'm not proud.
Off topic: You were missed this week. Your name came up plenty of times and I want to let you know that I represented Texas for you, Heathy and myself!
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You mean you've already seen 4e and made that determination?
No, we haven't seen 4e yet. But neither have you. All we can base our opinions off of is what has been released so far. That info has given some people (like you) cause for optimism, and other cause (like me) for pessimism. Both positions are valid.
The $9.95/month price for D&DI that's going around is complete supposition; WotC hasn't given any numbers yet, so we have yet to be able to make price comparisons. Also, the 10-character limit is apparently a myth.
both the $10 and the 10 character limit were mentioned by Wizards in their meetings. Neither is set in stone, but this is where they are currently leaning. Watch the videos and read the recaps on EnWorld for confirmation.
As for the rent vs. own issue, we still don't know how that's going to work for D&DI. From what I've read so far, it seems like you probably will be able to retain most of your resources (magazine issues, characters, etc.) if your membership lapses, in some form (printouts, PDFs, etc.). Clarification on this matter will have a big impact on the perceived value of D&DI membership.
Actually, there is no such thing as confidence about keeping your info. When explicitly asked this at the secrets of D&D seminar, the answer was something close to "We haven't really thought about what would happen in a lapsed membership. We'll get back to you." There is NO guarantee that you could keep your material if your membership lapsed.
Dragon and Dungeon subscriptions were close to $40/year each, say $75-$80/year for both (plus sales tax (in WA at least) and shipping).
So the DI is estimated by Wotc as about 40 to 50 more each year and I have to trade print magazines for virtual product and some online tools. Some people are excited about that change. Others aren't. Try to remember that there are two sides to this issue and many folks are unhappy. How about the Greyhawk fans, who likely will see their favorite world retreat into oblivion for the next three or more years?
Thanks, Daigle. I have been unusually busy lately.
I started sacking groceries at 15 and joined the Army Reserve at 17 so I could go to college. I've been working non-stop since the age of 13 and will continue to do so until I die. I don't see that there will be any other choice in the matter.
The most fun dollar I ever made was getting published by Paizo in Dragon and Dungeon, though :)
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As for the rent vs. own issue, we still don't know how that's going to work for D&DI. From what I've read so far, it seems like you probably will be able to retain most of your resources (magazine issues, characters, etc.) if your membership lapses, in some form (printouts, PDFs, etc.). Clarification on this matter will have a big impact on the perceived value of D&DI membership.Actually, there is no such thing as confidence about keeping your info. When explicitly asked this at the secrets of D&D seminar, the answer was something close to "We haven't really thought about what would happen in a lapsed membership. We'll get back to you." There is NO guarantee that you could keep your material if your membership lapsed.
I'd find it hard to believe you couldn't at least make printouts of your character sheets, and if you can print it out, you can turn it into a PDF (at least on a Mac). And they've stated that their "goal" is to allow for offline use of electronic versions of books. But yeah, there's a very large set of unknowns here.
Try to remember that there are two sides to this issue and many folks are unhappy.
As I've said, being unhappy about facts is one thing, and there is some of that (like my unhappiness over the fact that they're currrently planning for Windows-only support of some of the D&DI tools, a decision I hope they reverse, alhtough I don't hold out much hope for that). But so much (not all) of the heartache is based on wild extrapolation and sheer speculation, and that, I think, is unnecessarily distracting and unhelpful.
How about the Greyhawk fans, who likely will see their favorite world retreat into oblivion for the next three or more years?
Yeah, sucks for them. Seriously. With Living Greyhawk concluding and Dungeon and Dragon out of Paizo's hands, it seems like avenues for Greyhawk material are scarce. But WotC have said they'd be publishing about one campaign setting per year, and they did just come out with Expedition to Castle Greyhawk, so maybe all hope is not lost.
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Don't knock me and adopt a sarcastic tone because I'm not skipping for joy at the thought of WotC drastically changing a game that I've enjoying for over 25 years, especially when my reaction is based on the information that WotC is releasing.
Disinterest in 4e because you're opposed to further changes to the game you play actually makes sense, if you're happy with the current state of your game. (Although if you're playing some form of 3e, that's not the same game you or I have been enjoying for over 25 years, so you've already weathered drastic changes in the past.) But unless you're philosophically averse to 30-level class descriptions or shorter statblocks or something (both of which, actually, would be returns to earlier editions), vehement opposition to 4e as a rules set seems premature when we know almost nothing about it at this point. What do we know so far, in terms of changes?
- 30-level classes
- shorter statblocks
- weapon-based abilities for fighters
- spellcasters won't run out of some kind of magical ability
- rogues use skills in ways others can't
- simpler grappling rules
- simpler AoOs or equivalent
- more flexible magic item creation
- race effects beyond 1st level
Not much, and practically no details. For instance, in terms of the combat system, I think all we've heard is that they plan on simplifying a couple of things that most people find problematic (grappling and AoOs); otherwise, do we know anything at all? It just seems like we don't have enough to go on yet, as far as making value comparisons with the current rules.
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I'm just saying that this new move furthers this separation between haves and have-nots, marginalizes a demographic of gamers that already have a hard time keeping up with the Joneses and feeds some sort of techno-elitism that quite frankly makes me queasy.
I'm sensitive to that as well, and it would be stupid of WotC to make online access essential to playing D&D (which they've clearly stated it's not). OTOH, you're not suggesting that WotC should avoid utilizing technology that much (most?) of their customer base could employ, should they choose to do so? This is a far more general problem, way beyond what WotC is doing.