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Did a random encounter for my group (they're kind of lost in the vale at the moment). And it came up Manticore, I started the combat not realizing the CR of the Manticore and quickly had to retcon it so I didn't get a TPK with my level 2/3 party.
That's definately not good for the party going out to the dungeon (maybe coming back, but who is really gonna do the random encounters on the trip back?). Maybe in the future put the EL next to the random encounter description so newer DMs won't make that sort of mistake? The sidebar was good for the giants and stuff, but there was no suggestions or ideas for dealing with the manticore in a non-TPK way.
Did a random encounter for my group (they're kind of lost in the vale at the moment). And it came up Manticore, I started the combat not realizing the CR of the Manticore and quickly had to retcon it so I didn't get a TPK with my level 2/3 party.
That's definately not good for the party going out to the dungeon (maybe coming back, but who is really gonna do the random encounters on the trip back?). Maybe in the future put the EL next to the random encounter description so newer DMs won't make that sort of mistake? The sidebar was good for the giants and stuff, but there was no suggestions or ideas for dealing with the manticore in a non-TPK way.
Gah! Thought I mentioned the manticore too! I prolly forgot! I would make the manticore already wounded from an encounter with some hunters. Some arrow-shafts sprouting from its ribs, and a crazed pained look in its feral eyes. Maybe a few more shots drives it off. Sorry, I wish I'd gotten this to you sooner Coridan! Good call not waxing the party...no fun...that's why I put that sidebar in there in the first place...so many of my adventures have seen the PCs death-i-macated by a random encounter...no fun at all!
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I rolled the damage from a volley of spikes and I realized it would drop all of them in the first hit so I just changed it up to the harpy one which worked out a lot better. They're in the dungeon now and just found the listening room (took them a few to figure it out) I was glad for the allip, gave the Spirit Shaman some real good use out of that chastise spirits ability.
The shocker lizards were rough on 'em too but at least they had the brains to retreat lol.
The shocker lizards were rough on 'em too but at least they had the brains to retreat lol.
Discretion is the better part of valor I always say...especially at 2nd level!
The Manticore-encounter could serve as a reminder that not every creature that a DM puts in an adventure is fightable. I had a group once who went by the meta-theory that if it's in the adventure, they can beat it.
That being said, having the manticore kill the PCs outright is a bad idea. Maybe the PCs can come across the beast as he's devouring a meal, and then decide whether to fight or to run. Include some options for hiding, as a small cave or something where the manticore won't fit.
Just because a DM rolls the manticore as a wandering monster doesn't mean the players have to fight it. There are plenty of ways to make it a non-lethal encounter that's still interesting for the players. Here are at least a couple of ideas off the top of my head:
You can simply make the encounter a manticore sighting. Perhaps they just see the beast flying over them. Unless the players attack the beast, it just flys on.
Or perhaps they find manticore tracks near one of his latest kills. The tracks (and a few tail spikes) are all around the corpse of a deer, elk or other large animal. The tracks lead away from the mostly-finished meal and then just jump and disapear (the maticore took off and headed home).
Seeing him eating a kill has alreay been mentioned, but what about making it an audible encounter. The players hear a mighty roar, followed by a few corse curses in broken common. If they follow the noise, they might see the manticore already in combat with anther monster from the WM chart.
They might also stumble upon the manticores cave. It could be a sighting in the distance ("about a quarter mile to the NE, you see a large winged feline creature entering a cave in the hillside").
It could also be the cave itself. The manticore is out hunting at the moment, so all they find is a cave with a nest of torn colthing and many half-chewed bones and gristle. A heavy feline odor is present, and anyone who makes a Knowledge:Nature check of DC10 can determine that this is aactivly used lair.
The encounter can also be a warning that a manticore lairs in the area. Perhaps the PC's come across a wounded hunter who was attacked by the beast. Or, perhaps they find a tree with deep claw marks streching up 10 feet or more form the ground. Again, a heavy feline musk is present (assumably, the manticore marks his territory like any other lion).
All of these non-lethal encounters still provide information to the players, and most of them can be turned into adventure hooks once the PC's have a bit more experience under their belts. They also make the game world seem more "real" by letting the PC's know that a dangerous monster is about.
Hopefully, the players show a little smarts and realize that not everything in the game world is meant to be fought at the present moment.
These are really cool ideas... I however like the manticore as is. Just because the PCs are second level does not mean they are in a second level world.
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I was doing it as written is what the worry is about though, and I wasn't very familiar with manticores (first time encountering one in D&D actually) and it was written as ambushing the players. A less experienced DM might've just said "oh well that's what happens" thankfully I doublechecked the CR before going into damage and stuff, so all they did was find a dead wolf with spines in its neck.
I think in D0 there is a blue wyvern flying around too... Falcons Hollow is TUFF.
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Just because a DM rolls the manticore as a wandering monster doesn't mean the players have to fight it. There are plenty of ways to make it a non-lethal encounter that's still interesting for the players.
Agreed. One thing that's often forgotten is that the specific conditions of any 'encounter' rely on the terrain, or the dungeon architecture.
Far too many DMs roll up a wandering monster,and just have it leap out from behind a (previously non-existent) bush, with the cry "Roll for initiative!". This is incredibly irritating to the players, especially those whose PCs have high Spot/Listen/Know.(nature)/Track, who could be forgiven for thinking "That creature would never have got that close!".
Check out DMs Guide, pages 87-95, for the descriptions of various terrain and weather. Take note of the sub-headings "Stealth and Detection in....", and the reduced visibilty for rain and storms.
I'm sure there's a rule for 'encounter distance', but I may be wrong; the idea that two groups could potentially meet, but both fail to notice the other. I may be recalling 2nd Edition, though...
In a heavy wood, visibility is very poor, and it's likely a creature would be heard before it was spotted. In a flat desert, the opposite is true. And of course, the converse is also true; that if you can see them, there's a chance they can see you...very bad if the creature is a powerful flyer...alternatively, one or both sides may not wish to fight, and may slope off to avoid the other, maybe with a 'Mexican Stand-off', or a barrage of insults.
Ask the players to decide on an order of march, and if they are to keep together, or have scouts taking point. You can then assume this is the norm, unless told otherwise (for injury, etc). Keep a record behind your screen, of all the PC's 'secret' skills (Hide, Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, Knowledge (nature), etc), and roll (secretly) against these whenever appropriate (plus a few dummy rolls, to keep players guessing). This is much better than announcing the encounter, placing miniatures, and having to wait while all players abuse their hindsight, to retroactively decide where they 'would have' been.
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These are really cool ideas... I however like the manticore as is. Just because the PCs are second level does not mean they are in a second level world.
Basically right, but... I just read D1 and noticed that there are three CR 5 encounters on the first dungeon level, and three CR 5 at lower level, AND two CR 6 and THREE CR 7 encounters on the lower level as well. Isn´t that a bit much for a 2nd level party? I can see them winning the upper level if they play clever, and even gain a level if they take every encounter, but still...
It is not for novice players the way it is written, that much is sure.Stefan
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These are really cool ideas... I however like the manticore as is. Just because the PCs are second level does not mean they are in a second level world.Basically right, but... I just read D1 and noticed that there are three CR 5 encounters on the first dungeon level, and three CR 5 at lower level, AND two CR 6 and THREE CR 7 encounters on the lower level as well. Isn´t that a bit much for a 2nd level party? I can see them winning the upper level if they play clever, and even gain a level if they take every encounter, but still...
It is not for novice players the way it is written, that much is sure.Stefan
My group is just about to get to the second dungeon (they managed to rescue Jurin but had to run from the forge spurned. Right now they're hiding in the room with the suicide machine and resting for the night.
I've been giving them exp as they go and they're mostly 4th level right now. They definitely oughtn't be second level on the second level. So far they're just about right, they've only missed about 2 rooms I think.
Coridan, thanks for your report on the actual gameplay in D1.
Nick, was it written with the idea that the PCs gain several levels? W1 indicates which level the PCs can be expected to have at the end, but for D1, this info is not given.
Overall, I like D1 very much. It has a nice story, some interesting encounters and showcases just how flexible the magic items can be.
Stefan
Coridan, thanks for your report on the actual gameplay in D1.
Nick, was it written with the idea that the PCs gain several levels? W1 indicates which level the PCs can be expected to have at the end, but for D1, this info is not given.Overall, I like D1 very much. It has a nice story, some interesting encounters and showcases just how flexible the magic items can be.
Stefan
well essentially the plot is to rescue the children. done in just the right way, the PC's can skip a lot of the encounters, nab the kids and run (and i mean REALLY run!)!
but i think the answer is in the question. yes the players are expected to gain levels, but the number isnt specified, because they arent expected to take on every single monster or encounter. and ultimately, its up to each individual GM when and how XP is dealt out.
Just because a DM rolls the manticore as a wandering monster doesn't mean the players have to fight it. There are plenty of ways to make it a non-lethal encounter that's still interesting for the players.
i like all of those ideas Halidan. and just as the hill giant is an attempt to make a tough encounter bearable, so is the maticore a way to get across the idea that the world wasnt created with the PC's in mind, the world is a harsh place where heroes often fall meeting challenges that they were foolish enough to take on.
else, where would the Ballad of the Glintaxe come from? the dwarf was foolish enough to go it alone and get drunk the night before entering the ruins. just because he slept didnt mean the Gel Cube did!
Yay for over-cautious and paranoid players!