...that Elmore will be doing Dragons final cover?!
I can't remember where I've heard/read it, but...Hell, that would be awesome!!!
The preview for the cover looks pretty good! A female with a sword and a dragon, looking out beyond the pages atop a small hill. Kinda sad, actually.
Wow that looks great!
And to think that if this were at the time when I first joined the boards, I'd have no idea who Larry Elmore was.
"Elmore? Who's that. I bet he sucks. I think Wayne Reynolds should do the cover!"
I don't make a habit of criticizing artwork because I have the greatest of respects for artists and their individual visions. However, this picture does not speak to me. Not for a final cover of the true Dragon magazine. I hate to take an opposing point of view when it clearly pleases most of you, but there are no right or wrong answers when it comes to art.
This could have been a painting that bore all the wistful fantastic yearnings of our very own Zeitgeist. I would have preferred something sentimental, that spoke to us directly... something that, behind the backs of Wizards, said, "Yes, it is the end of an era. Yes, many of you grew up with us."
A boy sitting on a hill of wild grass, his back to us... staring out at a sunny cloud-filled sky, only the clouds bear the forms and pageantry of warriors charging on horseback, a giant throwing a cumulus boulder, a rearing red dragon breathing puffy white fire, and way up in the cirrus, a medusine sorceroress laying a Vrock low with a spell. Sitting on the boy's shoulder... a little dragon friend the size of an African Grey. Back to us, it gazes on in bittersweet solidarity.
To me, this cover painting looks like a Choctaw woman and her unpalatably aquamarine dragon posing stiffly for a portrait, looking off at the mini-golf castle they just built. Maybe it wasn't phoned in but it doesn't seem to have been carefully conceived, and careful planning was the very least that the final paper cover of Dragon deserved.
Don't worry about posting a link guys. Nobody likes to have a convenient link that takes them to the object of the conversation.
=P
ED: Thanks Amaril, I finally found it after moving my mouse over every word. Looking... weak, man. Weak. On the other hand, it does look they are leaving the castle, and it has a certain .... regret about it.
While I'm not blown away by the cover either....
A little boy, his dragon friend perched on his shoulder? Pass the sick bag, someone, that's a tad treacly for me.
Some of us never murdered our inner child. Here's your sick bag. For Aubrey let's make the shouldered dragon undead, and let's swap out the boy for the propped up corpse of an eight year old. The clouds are blood spatter red and form the face of an evil elder god come home to roost.
I suppose no one cover will please everyone, but I took the time and care to explain what I didn't like about the Elmore's cover (check that out, the woman isn't even looking at the castle) and then envision and detail one that might better ring my bell. Where's my damn cookie?
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OK, Jade, but the cookie can wait....
I actually agree largely with your critique of the cover. It is pretty typical Elmore - busty maid, bit of scenery, and cheesy dragon. Part of the problem is that it looks quite dated - the D&D "look" has moved on from slightly anodyne landscapes, Playboy model girls and Disney castle, and reminds of covers from about 20 years ago - I probably have a couple of those in my back collection of Dragon. And the dragon looks wrong - they have been reimagined for 3E and look very distinctive, whereas that again harks back to dragons of yesteryear.
That, of course, may be the intention of both commissioning Elmore and the cover itself. But I personally prefer the "action" covers. While we, in the real world, may be feeling a tad wistful, I don't play D&D for a mushy, "hug me" sort of feeling. Instead, it is a game of adventure and derring-do. Of course, the Dungeon covers are generally more action-packed than Dragon due to the nature of the product, perhaps. Certainly, I have got much more of a buzz from reading Dungeon lately than Dragon (I'm not sure that the demise of the latter mag is such a big tragedy for me personally, while I lament the loss of an icon of the hobby - losing Dungeon, on the other hand, really annoys me).
I probably would have preferred Dragon to go out with more of a bang. While I can see that more sentimental approach for the last issue might be appropiate in some ways, I personally would not want the "real world" to impose itself so heavily on the cover. A more defiant, "the show must go on" sort of affair - maybe a Wayne Reynolds type hero with giant phallic weapon, standing over his (or her) crushed and bloodied wizard foe by the shoreline. Or perhaps not....
I do understand how most covers convey the grittier side of modern role play. I was just thinking that this last cover, which for me, is certainly a loss, might be allowed to play by different rules and appeal directly to those of us who are smarting.
The show must go on mindset doesn't sink in with me. I think the show's over. I think fourth edition is close. I think D&D is ultimately in the hands of people who find us and our concept of fun a bit bizarre. Who would have thought a generation of weirdos would get bought out by Hasbro? This is like when half the surviving hippies donned blue ties and went to work for IBM. My thanks to Wizards for forcing Hasbro to keep D&D on back when it was bought out. My thanks to Paizo for staying creative, even after having dinner taken off their table. I will subscribe to Pathfinder this week or the next.
The idea that a warrior defeats a wizard with thinly veiled wang smashing probably wouldn't do much for future Paizo/Wizard relations. It's also the opposite of the truth. A wizard has pierced the heart of the warrior but only because a demon named Hasbrodicus made him do it. Taking it a step further, when you open magazine a greeting card song-chip could sound the dirge.
Now what could your rationale possibly be for depriving me my cookie, Iceman? My slot-like mouth was specifically designed to accept those sugary coins.
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We could throw open the thread for suitably allegorical covers for the final Dragon, but in the end we would probably be banned. I hear what you say, I just think I'd like a bit more violence.
As for the show must go on - well, I'm going to carry on playing, which is at the heart of the D&D experience. D&D's corporate travails have a long history, not just recently - but we are still playing.
I doubt we'd get banned. Paizo is pretty lenient when the obscene is well worded and civil. The rule seems to be, obey some measure of talent, would ya folks?
I wasn't suggesting that I was going to stop playing D&D. I even mentioned picking up Pathfinder subscription. I've been playing since 1974. Clearly I'm a long haul sort of guy. However, where go the corporations, so goes the game. They are bound at the throat. I think the changes to come are not like any other before. I think actions from the top could endanger this temple's stability. I hate being crushed under toppled temples. Time will tell. (Accidental alliterative riff there)
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I have some mixed feelings about this final cover... How could I not? That said, I think that there is a lot in this picture, and when I give it more than a cursory glance, it does speak to me.
First of all, the choice of subject matter? When I started playing D&D as a little kid, I certainly enjoyed the art of Larry Elmore. Even before pre-pubescent sexual longings I was always inspired by a 'save the princess' type mentality. In any case, the 'princess' image is a suitable stand in for the hobby in general. Is D&D a 'grizzled warrior', or a 'powerful wizard'? Those might make appropriate icons as well, but in this case, the 'feminine' is more appropriate because the focus is on the vulnerability - the 'princess' requires protection the way other symbols for the hobby might.
Now, where is she going? While we can see where she's been, we don't know what's next. Does the nearby forest lead to greater things, or to certain death? The valley? While we know the direction isn't where she came from, that sense of wonder about what's next is indicated. As for the Dragon - that is absolutely essential. While the hobby isn't looking back over the last 30 years - instead staring carefully between the past (the castle) and the future (the reader) the Dragon is looking wistfully back.
And what about the relation between the two? The dragon looks like it is staying put, while the hobby moves on without it. Notice that the two don't touch. It isn't uncommon for an Elmore cover to illustrate some point of contact between the two - a tail laid over a shoulder, or a hand upon the great beasts flank....
The strange 'relationship' is certainly appropriate for a final cover with so many questions left unanswered....
I don't make a habit of criticizing artwork because I have the greatest of respects for artists and their individual visions. However, this picture does not speak to me. Not for a final cover of the true Dragon magazine. I hate to take an opposing point of view when it clearly pleases most of you, but there are no right or wrong answers when it comes to art...
I have to agree with you. It doesn't do much for me either, and I think it should because of what it represents.
That said, it would be an awesome cover for a Dragonlance novel. It speaks to me more that way than for the last cover of Dragon.
For the last cover of Dragon, I would've maybe liked to see a bit of pathos: a huge gold or silver dragon in it's prime, cut down by someone clearly evil but poorly equipped (except for a Dragon Orb or something) - with a few heroes in the distance looking shocked and running toward them... but too late.
That, or maybe a young red dragon looking wistfully onto a draconic graveyard.
Elmore could've still done the cover, but neither would've really been his usual thing.
/cookie for The Jade
Oh I loves me my new cookie, thanks Laek. :)
/cookies for EVERYONE! =)
Wait... NO cookies for the WotC suits. They can have plain saltine crackers. Until they atone.
Contributor
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I've looked at it several times. The picture evokes a lot of emotion in me, but maybe that's just because I know it's the last cover. It certainly is dated in it's style, reminiscent of one of the high points of D&D for me, when production values were going up and adventures were starting to have real stories and real characters. Although I actually think D&D is a much better game on all fronts now than it was then, I feel a lot of nostalgia.
But I also think the picture itself creates a great sense of my feelings about Dundeon/Dragon/Pathfinder. I see a journey starting. Things are being left behind, but a new beginning is there too. Where are they looking? Ahead? Behind? Both? Personally, I think it captures one aspect of the change that is happenning perfectly.
By the way, just a point of interest. The dragon mage/busty maid/playboy model in this particular case is, unless I am mistaken, Larry Elmore's wife. She models for many of his pictures.
I like the dated feel of it. It reminds me of my childhood, I used to stare at Elmore's pictures for ages just going over the details. The Red Dragon on the Basic Set is burned into my memory forever. I don't know about the American Indian lady though, it seems a bit Dragonlance, as someone said.
I don't know, I think it's cool. It's sad, and when I see that thing on the newstand it's going to look like it came straight at me from 1985 in the middle of all those slick new millenium magazine covers.
It's like a reference that only the faithful will get, everyone else will look at it and think "wait, that's not the latest issue of Heavy Metal. What's with that wierd 80s picture? What magazine IS that anyway?" And then they'll never see it again.
Not the cover I had in mind for Dragon's last Paizo-published, paper issue, but we do get a vet artist in Elmore. My first reaction was, it reminds me of Elmore's Dragonlance DM Screen, which I have. So it's not a wrap-around then. What species of dragon is this, BTW?
I actually greatly enjoy the cover. The Dragon and his Mistress looking back on a kingdom they must leave and likely never return to.
My own two cents, I know it's too late, but it may have made more sense to have the Dragon flying away. You could have still had the princess/wizard woman standing by watching as the dragon flies metaphorically off to another place/medium.
FWIW, the late 80's is when I started to lose interest in the D&D art as, to me, it just became too tacky and gaudy. Everyone had feathers, rhinestones, etc. I liked the more streamlined minimalist look. I can live with an Elmore cover. Although I'm with Jade here. Maybe I just had too high/different expectations.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Aubrey noted:
" And the dragon looks wrong - they have been reimagined for 3E and look very distinctive, whereas that again harks back to dragons of yesteryear."
Y'know, if you look through D&D 3.5, there's a lot of nostalgia , from the map in the DMG that harkens back to 1st Edition, to WotC's current revisions of classic adventures like Tomb of Horrors or White Plume Mountain, to DUNGEON's own Maure Castle, and Isle of Dread.
A throwback illustration of a dragon seems perfectly in keeping with that philosophy. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing a Jeff Dee illustration somewhere.
...A throwback illustration of a dragon seems perfectly in keeping with that philosophy. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing a Jeff Dee illustration somewhere.
Oh man! Yes!! Jeff Dee's illustrations for many of the early modules were great! And who could forget his art of the 1st Edition Deities and Demigods of the Egyptian and Norse deities? I would love it if some of his style of art could come back too.
I love Lary Elmore's artwork, but I just wanted to point this out . . . look at the dragons in the 1st edition Monster Manual and then look at the 3rd edition versions of these guys . . . the current artwork for dragons is actually based off the original illustrations, but back in 1st and 2nd edition a lot of artists just basically made dragons look how they wanted them to. Many of them looked awesome, but it didn't follow the original artwork for them.
A throwback illustration of a dragon seems perfectly in keeping with that philosophy. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing a Jeff Dee illustration somewhere.
works for me! :) or Erol Otus.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Sadly, Jeff Dee's style has sort of degenerated in the last 20 years (if you ask me). Otus, on the other hand, still makes art that looks like his old stuff.
I contacted Jeff a while back to do art for Polyhedron. He said "sure, but don't make me draw dudes with goofy helmets and bell bottoms." Since that was exactly what I was looking for, I decided to go a different direction.
--Erik
/cookies for EVERYONE! =)
Wait... NO cookies for the WotC suits. They can have plain saltine crackers. Until they atone.
I vote for salt-free soda crackers.
Possibly soggy.But that's just my $.02
I like the drawing. I don't know if Larry Elmore has ever done anything I didn't like. But I agree with nearly everything that's been said above. I kind of expected something more sombre or more "in your face," but frankly, I don't know if anything drawn by mortal hands could capture what many of us feel about the end of this era. So we get a cool drawing by Elmore with a cool castle and dragon and sorceress, and the drawing kind of implies change. Well done, I'd say.
It's funny how cheesy old cliches sometimes explain things better than anything, and here I'd have to say there's one that holds true:
"You don't know what you've got until it's gone."
And as much as I'd like to criticize those seaside mages, the game is, in many ways, better now than it has ever been. My new resolution is to try to accept the changes by embracing Pathfinder and the Gamemastery products and savoring them and not taking them for granted like I did with these two great magazines for a number of years.
All of that being said, I do like the drawing and I'm super thrilled that Elmore got to do the final cover. He's the best in my book. But I'm sort of old-school like that. And I also loved the Dragon (and the glowing magic sword!) on the cover of the old red (Mentzer?) Basic set. That drawing was used as inspiration (and as a surprise) for my groom's cake at my wedding. (my wife secretly sent a copy of the drawing to the cake lady--and the cake was red velvet, of course). So, yeah, that drawing has special meaning for me.
Have I digressed enough?
/cookies for EVERYONE! =)
Wait... NO cookies for the WotC suits. They can have plain saltine crackers. Until they atone.
I vote for salt-free soda crackers.
Possibly soggy.But that's just my $.02
Or... or maybe... (becomes possessed by ultimate evil):
Salt-free, really stale matzoh crackers, purchased from a dollar store in New Jersey. Which are also slightly soggy for no apparent reason.
>:-)
Laeknir
Sadly, Jeff Dee's style has sort of degenerated in the last 20 years (if you ask me). Otus, on the other hand, still makes art that looks like his old stuff.
I contacted Jeff a while back to do art for Polyhedron. He said "sure, but don't make me draw dudes with goofy helmets and bell bottoms." Since that was exactly what I was looking for, I decided to go a different direction.
--Erik
Darn, that's too bad. Wait, I thought he was all into superhero stuff now (Dee, that is). Those usually have goofy helmets and bell bottoms.
The great thing about Erol Otis, at least to me anyway, was the way he could draw Blibdoolpoopy / Chtulhu-ish things that sorta looked like they should be on a Saturday morning cartoon in the 80s. =)
That's why I think Otis has to be the inspiration for all the little Lovecraftian plushie puppets that have come out.
the way he could draw BlibdoolpoopyI don't know why this made me laugh so hard. Sorry, back to the sad thread.
Heh, because scatalogical humor is almost always da shizzy! Even if it's buried in an adjective. =D
I don't post regularly, but I thought I would give my interpretation of this final piece of cover art. It is not my favorite piece, but I like it.
The browning leaves behind the dragon signals a change of the times. The position of the sun rising/setting symbolizing the rise of the new era and the fall of an old respectively. The fantasy background is just that, but I think these are places where all of us have been and we are still there. The dragon and it's mistress/dominatrix are looking at something. I think that the dragon is looking at the single window that has a light, knowing that it should be there in the room reassuring it's friends in the dark times to come. Or that it should be there at the end of an all-nighter with all of us. Regardless, the light will stay on should the dragon ever return. The mistress/dominatrix/Wizard is looking at the dragon trying to justify in her mind what she is doing to it. And the dragon handled electro-rod which she has a white-knuckle grip on represents the change to electronics. Or it could just be a fancy dragon prod and she is saying, "Time to go old girl." ZAP!
As above, I like it. It makes me reflect, but I also would rather like to have seen something more "in the face of Wizards". Someone had a similar view.
An evil Wizard in the throes of maniacal laughter. Prostrated before him/her a great dragon held helpless by ghostly chains of electricity. The dragons life force flowing into a crystal cube that glows with that familiar pale light which we are looking into this very moment. There in the background is a rusty cage trapping the masses of.... Normal people?
Over the top mellow-dramatic? I don't care, I had fun writing!
Both publications will be greatly missed. :( Through all the years everyone has done a great polishing job on a great product!
Here's a link I found with the final cover
http://www.sutekh.info/forums/viewtopic.php?p=114010&sid=6a2adefae92c03 4a57aafea1fac8cd65
That being submitted for your review, I've been collecting the mighty Dragon since that late 70's. My treasured collection spans the original Strategic Reviews, some of the single digit Dragons, and most from 18 to current. For those of you who were still a twinkle in your daddy's eye when the magazine was born, us "old-schoolers" appreciate the nod to Dragon's origins and one of the genre's greatest artists. What is wonderful about these old school covers is that that they stand out from the current crop of artwork that has adorned the covers, and can be so easily recalled. Who can forget issue #62 and the paladin fighting the orcs while on horseback? Who can forget the famous Denis Beauvais chess-related covers? Or the graceful Robin Wood and Dean Morrisey covers that spoke to us without manga-esque posing and over-sized mouths and eyes?
I've nothing against Wayne Reynolds or the artwork of the 3/3.5 Generation, but the covers don't stand out in such singular fashion as do the works of old. Everything is relative and certainly, my observations bear no more weight than anyone else's POV. I'm simply an advocate of "understanding one's history allows one to comprehend the present". The significance of securing Larry Elmore's enduring legacy on the last issue of this venerable magazine, is not missed by me or those of us who witnessed the birth of he Dragon and watched it evolve over the decades........it will be sadly missed
Who can forget issue #62 and the paladin fighting the orcs while on horseback? Who can forget the famous Denis Beauvais chess-related covers? Or the graceful Robin Wood and Dean Morrisey covers that spoke to us without manga-esque posing and over-sized mouths and eyes?
I started collecting at 68 (A Black is powerfully taking flight in winter, snow abounds, steam comes from his nostrils as is he is taking a stroll?!?!) and can understand your appreciation of the final cover. And yes it is good for all the reasons spoken of and more. It is also quite static, and I find it's "message" to be rather ambiguous, which may be intentional and is not necessarily bad.
What concerns me in this post is that I am having trouble finding the manga-esque covers you speak of--and your comments SEEM (and I may be mistaken here) to suggest that things have declined in recent years, which I totally disagree with. In fact, the covers I remember in the good old days were rarely as good as they have been lately. Although I agree that 62 was awesome. Now I did find a manga looking delver, which I like. She speaks to me about a TPK: "Well, I guess it's just me."
I don't think any of the old issues I remember stand out from these, that I have linked, at all--nor do I have any trouble recalling them (though I may be a little younger than you, hehe--j/k)
And all the same I can pull out covers that are very poor both from the early days and recent years.
Just my opinion. I shall so miss these magazines. Sigh.
Krue:
I should have been more clear. I am not suggesting everything has gone Manga-esque or that anything has declined. Indeed, your examples clearly defy that premise. Rather, what I did a poor job of explaining was that so much of the 3/3.5 materials (mod's, SOME of the Dragon/Dungeon covers) do appear to have a Manga influence, and I'm not a fan of that type of artwork. You are also correct that there were some pretty crappy covers in the past (remember the April Fool's issues--some of those were bad). Either way, there is good and bad with the old and new---it's just a question of to which "age" one feels more of a kinship. Mine simply happens to be with the "old school". I feel like I'm losing a long-time friend with the Dragon's passing....much like Gandalf and company, sailing off from the western shores of Middle-Earth, never to return.
...been collecting the mighty Dragon since that late 70's. My treasured collection spans the original Strategic Reviews, some of the single digit Dragons, and most from 18 to current. For those of you who were still a twinkle in your daddy's eye when the magazine was born, us "old-schoolers" appreciate the nod to Dragon's origins and one of the genre's greatest artists....
Being old, and owning old issues, doesn't make you a better judge of art.
I'm in your era of gamers, as I started playing Chainmail with my older brother and his friends, and I think many of the modern covers are just as good as some of the older ones. Quite a few modern covers are better. Here's a little art link. Look at the early art, issues 1-40 or so... those are fine, but not terrific.
And I'll agree, Elmore is terrific but I think his style is far more identified with Dragonlance than with his early (around issue 60+) Dragon covers. Robin Wood, also definitely an amazing artist. In fact, I think Robin could've done the nod to nostalgia better, if that's what the art director was aiming for.
I think it may come down to this: perhaps you just like a more Frazetta-style or realist style. =)
Edit: thinking back a little more, one thing I really didn't like about the issues in the 1980s - many, many covers were beautifully painted, but there was a period when artists focused on nymphs and butterfly dragons, magical frogs, and so on. Bleah. Way too syrupy, even though they were very pretty covers.
...you are also correct that there were some pretty crappy covers in the past (remember the April Fool's issues--some of those were bad).
Haha, too true! Ah, memories...
I feel like I'm losing a long-time friend with the Dragon's passing....much like Gandalf and company, sailing off from the western shores of Middle-Earth, never to return.
I think we all do, older and newer gamers alike.
I don't mind the cover; I've always been a fan of Elmore's work, and it has a wistful quality to it.... Reminiscent of a passing age/era, which this is. It's stylized, it's sappy, and yes, it's not Frazetta-real, but it's still very good.
That said, it's not my FAVORITE cover (maybe we need to start a thread of the favorite covers....) but it's certainly better than a lot of the covers from a few years past, I have to say. While Kruelaid is correct in the covers he pointed out (some of my favorites as well), these tell a story; that's the kind of cover I like, those that evoke a story--that you think "If I could just look a little further to the right, I'd get the whole story."
Yeah, they've gotten better these past couple years, even though I still hate the cluttered look with all the extra "business" on the cover about the articles (it's probably too much to hope that the last cover won't be cluttered.... and the clutter is a topic for a different thread (and yes, I understand the "need" for the clutter, so I don't need THAT lecture.)) I have to say, though--I'm not sure what the "manga" influence is....
What exactly does that mean?
I have to say, though--I'm not sure what the "manga" influence is....
What exactly does that mean?
What I meant to convey, but have done a poor job of explaining, is the oversized bodies with the big mouths and big eyes....isn't that manga? I guess I'm referring to Wayne Reynolds' art to some extent. Hell, I'm an "old" guy like Laeknir pointed out, so maybe it's better to ignore us old timers.... :)
the oversized bodies with the big mouths and big eyes....isn't that manga? I guess I'm referring to Wayne Reynolds' art to some extent. Hell, I'm an "old" guy like Laeknir pointed out, so maybe it's better to ignore us old timers.... :)
Ah....Yes....Wayne Reynolds...Not one of my favorites either. The "stretched" look--Yeah, I'm not sure I call it manga, but now I know what you mean (took a look at Wayne Reynolds' website for verification) and THIS is one of my least-favorite covers.
"But then, I'm an "old" guy too.... Where're mah teeth?!?!? Git them kids outta mah yard, with their fancy-shmancy ideas and garish colors! Gimme summa that Lockwood feller's pictures!"