Leophin's page

I have to say, though--I'm not sure what the "manga" influence is....
What exactly does that mean?

What I meant to convey, but have done a poor job of explaining, is the oversized bodies with the big mouths and big eyes....isn't that manga? I guess I'm referring to Wayne Reynolds' art to some extent. Hell, I'm an "old" guy like Laeknir pointed out, so maybe it's better to ignore us old timers.... :)

Krue:

I should have been more clear. I am not suggesting everything has gone Manga-esque or that anything has declined. Indeed, your examples clearly defy that premise. Rather, what I did a poor job of explaining was that so much of the 3/3.5 materials (mod's, SOME of the Dragon/Dungeon covers) do appear to have a Manga influence, and I'm not a fan of that type of artwork. You are also correct that there were some pretty crappy covers in the past (remember the April Fool's issues--some of those were bad). Either way, there is good and bad with the old and new---it's just a question of to which "age" one feels more of a kinship. Mine simply happens to be with the "old school". I feel like I'm losing a long-time friend with the Dragon's passing....much like Gandalf and company, sailing off from the western shores of Middle-Earth, never to return.

Here's a link I found with the final cover

http://www.sutekh.info/forums/viewtopic.php?p=114010&sid=6a2adefae92c03 4a57aafea1fac8cd65

That being submitted for your review, I've been collecting the mighty Dragon since that late 70's. My treasured collection spans the original Strategic Reviews, some of the single digit Dragons, and most from 18 to current. For those of you who were still a twinkle in your daddy's eye when the magazine was born, us "old-schoolers" appreciate the nod to Dragon's origins and one of the genre's greatest artists. What is wonderful about these old school covers is that that they stand out from the current crop of artwork that has adorned the covers, and can be so easily recalled. Who can forget issue #62 and the paladin fighting the orcs while on horseback? Who can forget the famous Denis Beauvais chess-related covers? Or the graceful Robin Wood and Dean Morrisey covers that spoke to us without manga-esque posing and over-sized mouths and eyes?

I've nothing against Wayne Reynolds or the artwork of the 3/3.5 Generation, but the covers don't stand out in such singular fashion as do the works of old. Everything is relative and certainly, my observations bear no more weight than anyone else's POV. I'm simply an advocate of "understanding one's history allows one to comprehend the present". The significance of securing Larry Elmore's enduring legacy on the last issue of this venerable magazine, is not missed by me or those of us who witnessed the birth of he Dragon and watched it evolve over the decades........it will be sadly missed

As Mr. Mona states, good things come to those who wait. I just saw the cover of the recent Dungeon in my FLGS and it was credited to Mr. Erol Otus. I knew right away from where that famous green devil face had come. Brought back flashbacks of Acererak and foolish adventurers touching the skull...assuming they made it that far. It is our collective experiences, coupled with this artwork, that trigger such wonderful memories. For me, it brought a big grin to my face. Given that Mr. Mona states that Jeff Dee is around the corner, I think it a credit to all at Paizo who listened to these suggestions. I hope that some other gaming companies take stock of our "roots" and employ the services of the GAWDFATHERS of D & D artwork. Goodman has Erol Otus; Elmore is used by a multitude. I see great things coming to pass. By the way, where is my recent issue of the Dragon? I always receive my issue 2 weeks prior to the FLGS receiving theirs. I saw a post in another thread that someone in Germany had his?? This isn't right. I live right here in the midwest where the distributors are located and should have received it.
MAY ALL YOUR HITS BE CRITS

Sorry to have misdirected this thread. That certainly wasn't my goal. I took at look at the one link that has Issue 184 highlighted. That cover does indeed, tell a story. If you compare the current crop of art (which I'll call 3E style) to the "old school", then yes, it is vastly different. However, even some of the old covers were quite sylistic in their posing or were downright crappy. Again, my previous comments were simply that we've got a distinct difference between the generations. By possibly having a return of the "old school" artists for a year, that at least satisfies some of the current subscribers (like myself) and might encourage some of the younger generation to investigate the old-school artists and learn to appreciate the origins of fantasy gaming artwork. Unfortunately, we can't simply go back to the old school (as much as I'd like). When Brom first came out, I thought 2 things---wow, that's ugly, and two "this is really cool". After seeing more of his artwork, I came to appreciate it a lot more. It takes time. I'm not a Manga fan, so I can see how this new artwork draws unfavorable comarisons. Notwithstanding my dislike, the style will be here until the next wave of artists. Maybe what the Dragon/Dungeon cover editors need to consider is asking the new artists to consider incorporating a story with the picture, not just a pose as you have identified. I think your argument is that the style isn't bad, it's the substance. Maybe running a full year of "old-school" artists covers will shock the new artists into re-thinking how to paint a picture and tell a story at the same time. Again, my 2 cents only.

I wonder if Mr. Mona bid on that original DMGuide I had my eyes on?? That would've been a sweet piece of history, especially with the errors being noted by DCS. Anyway, it sounds as if this is at least a slowly germinating idea that may evolve into a future issue of Dragon/Dungeon. Any chances of selling that item you obtained?? Guess it pays to be the E-in-C of a big magazine. I'll have to quit my job as a 20th Level Assassin/Lawyer. Just doesn't pay like it used to.

It's me again. I got to thinking about some of the responses this topic has generated. Recently, David C. Sutherland's (DCS) family sold off a lot of his personal items fro m the early TSR days, back when this hobby was in its infancy. DCS did a lot of the interior and exterior artwork for the old books, especially the Old DM's Guide with the woman caught in the hands of the efreet. But I digress. My point is this. There are a lot of artists out there who contributed to the success of D & D in its early stages, many of whom we still hold near and dear to our hearts. Perhaps PAIZO needs to consider an homage to these artists of old and how they inspired the modern generation of artists who regularly paint for the fantasy genre. Maybe a single issue devoted to many of these artists or perhaps even a year-long celebration where select "old-school" artists can offer new covers for an entire year, Erol Otus one month, Jeff Dee the next, then Holloway, Elmore, Willingham, Caldwell, Morrisey, Wood, etc. By giving the modern generation of 3E players a glimpse of the passionate artwork and glory of these "old-timers", it allows them to connect with a still vibrant era and gain some perspective on why the game has progressed to where it is in 2004. Just some more ramblings, but I greatly think that Mr. Mona and others at Paizo would be doing a great service to these founding artists and help bridge a gap between new and old. My 2 cents.

Alright. Here's my first posting on any message board anywhere, and I'm drawn into the foray of new vs. old, classic vs. contemporary. Having been playing D & D in some form since 1978, I guess I qualify as an old fart, even though I'm only 35. I remember picking up my first issue of The Dragon (#65) at a bookstore. It was the last copy on the rack and was one of the classic Clyde Caldwell covers, showing a green dragon lurking overhead while a warrior and his stout dwarven companion walk through an archway into a room of treasure----mysteriously floating in the background, a wispy female character, possibly a sorceress, looks over their shoulders, sensing what is about to happen. I admit that I'm an old-schooler and grew up on those covers from Caldwell, Dean Morrisey, Robin Wood, Denis Beauvais and the venerable Larry Elmore. When the newer editions came to pass, it was a foregone conclusion that the Dragon would have to evolve and adapt, in order to remain competitive and draw in readers. While I yearn for those old schoolers and their wonderfully enchanting artwork, I believe that the time has come to let a new generation assume that mantle of leadership. I think it would be wonderful to have some of the "old-school" artists back every now and then to do those covers, simply because there are a lot of us out here who do remember and can appreciate, that style of art. Nothing is necessarily wrong or soulless about the new art, rather, it's a different style that appeals to a new generation, playing a newer edition, with newer rules, and younger faces. Let them have the newer covers. It won't hurt anyone and doesn't detract from what really matters, i.e., the content. I'm looking at #324 while here on my lunch break, and I like it. Solid articles, well laid out form, and very funny (Zogonia gets better each issue). The cover is simple and to the point, much in line with the Halloween/wintery theme associated with its contents. I say "kudos" to Mr. Glenn for developing new artists and great artwork. I would only ask that they consider getting some of those old-schoolers back on occasion. I know Erol Otus is enjoying his stint back at Goodman Games.