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First off, I loved the St. Cuthbert Core Beliefs article in this month's Dragon. I have one point of disagreement, however. I'll admit up front that this may be due to my misunderstanding of 3.5's cosmology and the assumptions underlying deities' relationships with their worshipers, as it seems to be a prevalent theme in many discussions of gods and clerics.
How can there be sustained heresy in a world that posits activist deities? The article describes a heretical sect of LE worshippers and an entire arm of the church dedicated to wiping out heresy.
In a world where clerics receive their spells from the deity daily, how do the LE worshipers get their spells if St. C. doesn't like their alignment? Similarly, if a sect is espousing new doctrine that runs counter to orthodoxy, a schism is not necessary. Either their doctrine is acceptable to their god (and they get their daily spells)or it isn't. If a point of doctrine is unclear and is dividing the church, Contact other Plane or a similar spell is probably available at some level of the ecclesiastical hierarchy, and the issue can be decided in short order.
This might not be the case for a very chaotic-aligned deity who enjoys seeing his followers trying to figure out what he actually meant in his holy writings, but probably not for most deities and definitely not for the lawful, simple and straightforward Cuthbert.
I think that these ideas are carrying forward underlying assumptions from our world, in which most religions' gods would be described as quietist (vice activist) and deviations from orthodoxy do not receive immediate divine punishment and doctrinal questions have no independently verifiable divine answer.
Thanks for any thoughts.
I've been wondering how exactly a heresy could happen as well, but I think I have a good idea. In the past, several evil gods looking to undermine the faithful of their enemies have granted daily spells to the heretics without their knowledge so that the heretic cleric will destabilize the parent church.
It happened in the Forgotten Realms when Cyric killed the goddess of mysteries, Lyra I think, and Cyric secretly continued to grant them spells to preserve the illusion she was still alive.
It happened again in the Age of Worms adventure path with the Ebon Triad, who were obviously heretics of their evil gods, but continued to receive spells. I beleive they recieved them from Kyuss.
It makes sense that heretics of a good god would be supported by dark powers, be they demon princes or rival deities
I've been wondering how exactly a heresy could happen as well, but I think I have a good idea. In the past, several evil gods looking to undermine the faithful of their enemies have granted daily spells to the heretics without their knowledge so that the heretic cleric will destabilize the parent church.It happened in the Forgotten Realms when Cyric killed the goddess of mysteries, Lyra I think, and Cyric secretly continued to grant them spells to preserve the illusion she was still alive.
It happened again in the Age of Worms adventure path with the Ebon Triad, who were obviously heretics of their evil gods, but continued to receive spells. I beleive they recieved them from Kyuss.
It makes sense that heretics of a good god would be supported by dark powers, be they demon princes or rival deities
If I recall correctly in one of the novels, Cyric even supplies spells to a priest of Torm by pretending to be Torm, and thus leads the priest astray. This could explain heresy. They believe they follow St. Cuthbert but are really being led by . . .
I could see how the badguys could get the juice for their spells, but wouldn't the deity who was the victim of heresy get mad and send his disciples visions telling them to clean the mess up?
Maybe it is a "there is no such thing as bad press" kind of deal. Kind of like the "You're quite possibly the worst pirate I've ever heard of." / "So you've heard of me...?" arguement.
Creative Director
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Since the PHB allows clerics who don't worship gods to still function as clerics (see the second paragraph under "religion" on page 30), it's easy for there to be heretics in D&D. A heretic isn't recieving spells from his deity, but from the power of his heretical convictions. Which makes him all the more dangerous to that faith; he's living proof that you don't need to worship that god to function in many ways identically to those who do.
Which I kind of like, to be honest. It's more interesting to me if a cleric worships a deity because of faith, rather than just because he HAS to in order to cast spells. Puts worship of deities back into the faith category a bit...
I could see how the badguys could get the juice for their spells, but wouldn't the deity who was the victim of heresy get mad and send his disciples visions telling them to clean the mess up?
It would certainly make sense, yes, but when exactly did the gods of D&D every do what was sensible?
Perhaps the heretic doesn't receive the visions because he no longer believes in the deity correctly, or the dark power is blocking them while granting him spells, or even that since he no longer follows his original god 'properly' the heretic is no longer on his original god's radar and the deity is unaware of what is happening. Perhaps all three are true; it would depend on the DM's prerogative I think. It might even be a good idea to keep the truth from the players, especially if they are faithful clerics fighting against the heretics.
The basic problem is that heresy is a real world idea, and usually stems from the faithful having an argument about their beliefs and faith.
In the world of D&D, faith is not an issue. You don't have to have faith in a deity, they exist. Spells and the divine power granted by the various deities represent an obvious sign that the powers that be are there. Faith is a matter of choosing who is the right deity, as opposed to choosing to believe in the gods at all. That certainly makes heresy difficult to achieve, unless you reintroduce a bit of uncertainty into the situation again.
Leaving the particular reasons why a heretic continues to receive spells does that. A heretic in D&D needs to have the same certainty that a true believer would, and ironically would be able to point at his continued ability to cast spells as proof that his heresy is actually right.
I could see how the badguys could get the juice for their spells, but wouldn't the deity who was the victim of heresy get mad and send his disciples visions telling them to clean the mess up?
it sounds like maybe he did...
The article describes a heretical sect of LE worshippers and an entire arm of the church dedicated to wiping out heresy.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Since the PHB allows clerics who don't worship gods to still function as clerics (see the second paragraph under "religion" on page 30), it's easy for there to be heretics in D&D. A heretic isn't recieving spells from his deity, but from the power of his heretical convictions. Which makes him all the more dangerous to that faith; he's living proof that you don't need to worship that god to function in many ways identically to those who do.
Which I kind of like, to be honest. It's more interesting to me if a cleric worships a deity because of faith, rather than just because he HAS to in order to cast spells. Puts worship of deities back into the faith category a bit...
Ah, but if you're doing real Greyhawk (as opposed to mock-Hawk like the PH gods), that is in fact not possible. But Greyhawk lore is filled with clerics being granted spells by gods other than the ones the cleric thinks is granting the spells, and in many cases clerics have worshipped gods that don't exist at all.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Ah, but if you're doing real Greyhawk (as opposed to mock-Hawk like the PH gods), that is in fact not possible. But Greyhawk lore is filled with clerics being granted spells by gods other than the ones the cleric thinks is granting the spells, and in many cases clerics have worshipped gods that don't exist at all.Since the PHB allows clerics who don't worship gods to still function as clerics (see the second paragraph under "religion" on page 30), it's easy for there to be heretics in D&D. A heretic isn't recieving spells from his deity, but from the power of his heretical convictions. Which makes him all the more dangerous to that faith; he's living proof that you don't need to worship that god to function in many ways identically to those who do.
Which I kind of like, to be honest. It's more interesting to me if a cleric worships a deity because of faith, rather than just because he HAS to in order to cast spells. Puts worship of deities back into the faith category a bit...
So... 8-Bit Theater's atheist Cleric who works "freelance" IS feasible in Greyhawk...?
Interestingly even defiants can gain divine spells, although the source is arguable.
The same with a more extreme example, heretics in the Forgotten Realms receiving spells, look at the confusion concerning the silence of Lathander on the Risen Sun Heresy in Lost Empires of Faerûn - they might draw on lingering divine energy, continue to gain spells from other deities or still gain them because of some secret the deity is not willing to share. The strength of faith seems to fuel divine spellcasting even in such a deity-centred campaign as FR. There are even those who revere fallen gods and celestial paragons and they are apparently not punished in the Fugue Plane.
Let's assert that there is not a perfectly recognizable reasoning involved when it comes to faith in the game.
Edit: Reading over it again, the text suggests that clerics can effectively shape the divine landscape by altering the common perception of a deity. An example is made in the attempted resurrection of Amaunator. The interaction between faith and reality is crucial for the setting and what precipitates the other is hard to tell, as embodied by the fission of the elven pantheon and Lolth and the crown wars.