The latest STAP segment makes me start wondering about James Jacob's comments about CR and how it starts breaking down at higher levels. The stats for Vanthus brings his comments back into focus.
Vanthus is a wuss. We have a CR 20 villain with less than 100 hit points, DR 15/magic and an SR of 25?!? Even with his tactics (specifically designed so he doesn't have to fight toe to toe with all the PCs), his armor class, and his death knight and half-fiend abilities he should be a pushover for four determined 17th-level PCs. Particularly if they have rested and prepared beforehand.
Now this is not a problem of the DUNGEON staff, but is a problem with way high-level monsters are designed. I'll give you a few examples:
1. By the time characters are 10th-level even the wizard should have a couple of magic weapons, so having DR magic for monsters past CR 10-12 is stupid. A death knight should have the same DR as a lich, since in many ways they are supposed to be the liches fighting equivalent.
2. The 2 templates Vanthus is saddled with give him +6 to his CR. Now the templates have been added to make him more fearsome and terrifying, but by the time the PCs are this high-level the templates are more disadvantageous to Vanthus than helpful. Stripping the 2 templates gives Vanthus 6 more levels! Even stripping him of one of the templates would give him 3 more levels. This equates to a lot of combat effective abilities, more hit points, skill points, feats, and ability score increases. I'm not saying the templates shouldn't have been added, but what did Vanthus lose out on in return?
3. Undead hit points. Hit points are the most important currency in the game. That's why WotC have recently given a lot of undead unholy toughness as an ability (Necromancer Games have done the same thing with a feat). Since this was used to make Dragotha more than he was, why not do the same for Vanthus? Heck, give him the unholy grace ability as well. It's my belief that corporeal undead (at least) should be given bonus hit points in the same way that constructs get bonus hit points and that when the transition is made Paizo should make use of that feat I was talking about as well.
There are a few other things I could mention, but I don't want to sound like a massive whiner. Perhaps I am, but I think I'll leave if up for you to decide. ;-)
I noticed that about Vanthus, as well, upon looking at his stat block. Personally, I'm inclined to give him some kind of unholy toughness--just so he can at least use some iconic ability, so that it doesn't come down to initiative being the end-all for all "solo baddie vs. party" encounters.
Heck, maybe I'll just give him some big initiative boost to make this for sure. In fact...that's probably gonna be slated for the encounter with him. An extra 100hp, and a +20 to initiative. :-) Just right...
Death's Blessing from Necromancer Games has become a staple feat for almost every one of my undead.
I plan on tweaking Vanthus with a homebrewed sword & sickle tactical feat (long before he changes), since the sickle by itself is not so hot. An intelligent sickle might be a cool reason as to why Vanthus keeps the thing around, too. Also, I think my PCs would be "sad" to see that Vanthus isn't slinging Power Word Kill, so the Krynnish death knight template may be in order.
How about DR something/good and cold iron? Then you need a weapon along the lines of a holy avenger to deal with him, which seems appropriate.
Creative Director
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The main problem with Vanthus there is that the Death Knight template is Vastly Underpowered. Frankly, it sucks. It's a terrible template, but at the same time, it's a classic monster, so it's too bad that it sucks. Why does it suck? Because undead melee monsters suck for their hit dice.
Although I suppose we could have arbitrarilly fixed the template and Vanthus... I tend to try to avoid doing that too much. But as far as the Monster Manual II is concerned, I've more or less decided that it's not worth sticking to the rules, really. There's too many cool monsters in there that just don't work as designed. In Dungeon #149, we've got arcanaloths and linnorms, both of which I tinkered with to either bring them up to the right CR or lowering their MM2 CR to something more realistic.
As for Vanthus... I think that giving him a fighter BAB and bonus hit points equal to his Charisma modifier x HD is a good start, and I'd heartily recommend that to anyone looking for ways to toughen him up. He's got a pretty good AC if I remember right, he just needs to be able to take some hits in melee so he'll be able to get in some of his own.
Ugh... so many cool monsters in MM2... and so many of them just don't work! If I had 3 D&D wishes at this point, the 2nd one would be to have a 3.5 revised Monster Manual 2.
This is good to know. Since I'm running my campaign with the gestalt rules, I've had to modify every major opponent my PCs have encountered. It sounds like DK Vanthus will need some special attention to make him more robust.
I'm only in the middle of ToD now, so I haven't had a chance to test out that gestalt version of Vanthus yet - I'm hoping he's good enough to give my party grief for more than one round now, but we'll see... :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
Ugh... so many cool monsters in MM2... and so many of them just don't work! If I had 3 D&D wishes at this point, the 2nd one would be to have a 3.5 revised Monster Manual 2.
I might be able to guess but what would the first and third be?
Elcian
Just out of curiosity I took a look at the changes between the Krynn Deathknight in DL versus the Deathknight in the MM II, with the changes in the conversion manual.
While he would gain a few cool abilities like the symbol and power word and the spell like abilities, these kind of fall back into the, "he has to survive long enough to use them" category. Plus, at his hit dice, ironically the problem is compounded because the Krynn death knight template goes up a tick, making him CR +4 instead of +3.
First off, I have to throw in that I think the "old, never implemented" idea of classed individuals being CR (level -2) and NPC classes being (level -3) is likely a good idea that should have been retained.
Anyway, the point is that, dealing with what we have, he is underpowered (and the CR from his half fiend template doesn't help, since some of the abilities don't matter much now that he is undead, and some of them overlap with his death knight abilities).
If you use the Krynn version of the Death Knight, Vanthus could raise a few of his fallen crew members as skeletal warriors, and while this doesn't make HIM any tougher, it might add a few bodyguards to slow down the PCs.
Moreso than adding in the Krynn abilities (yes, they are based on the original Death Knight, but looking over the list again, I'm starting to see why some were dropped. Its like a laundry list of random but nasty abilities, and most of them won't even come into play), I think Death Knights are a good candidate for Unholy Toughness. I know its kind of a "catch all," but honestly, Death Knights are definately a "front line" combatant form of undead, being martial characters when they were alive. It also dovetails with their charisma boost.
In Vanthus' case, this would throw another 70 hit points with his charisma, bringing him to 167 hp, and probably giving him long enough to fire off his abyssal blast and pull some PCs off the offensive and back into "repair" mode.
I'm not too worried about the increased CR, since we are looking to make Vanthus more dangerous after all. To me a death knight feels empty without the ability to point at someone and command them to die with a simple word. >: )
Also, give each of the shadow demons of Socothbenoth a level in crusader of Socothbenoth, and make sure they all take White Raven Tactics. Worried about Vanthus not having enough actions? >: ) x3
As I've said elsewhere, one of the main lessons I learned while running AoW was that if your party is running roughshod over most encounters, you should never let them go up against a BBEG in single combat. No matter how tough he is, they'll likely take him out quickly.
So I'll probably wind up bolstering the encounter with Vanthus by giving him a bunch of minions for the PCs to shoot at, rather than beefing up his stat block.
Don't forget that if PCs get splatbooks, BBEGs should get them too.
And I'm gone in a flash!
So, beef him up. Add an amulet to his gear that radiates negative energy, turning him into a super death knight (Use the words elite or advanced, this seems to equal higher hit points for any monster.) ALso use it to give him a high regeneration (20 or 30 HT PTs per round). WHen my players fought Vanthus, I added a thousand hit points to him cause at 100 HT pts, he wouldn't have lasted one round with one of my players (Nevermind that my dice hate Vanthus, and rolled for him like he was trying to jump on his enemie's sword!)
My group is about to encounter him; as a quick fix if I run it before I have time to do more thorough research, I've given him unholy toughness (of course), a BAB equal to his total HD, and increased his sickle's crit multiplier to x4 (like a pick or scythe would have). N1NJ4, I like your recommendation on DR and will probably adopt that, too.
I'm debating other possibilities... has anyone tried out the Dicefreaks death knight templates? They seem pretty cool at first glance, but I'm not sure how they'd play.
Hiya.
Vanthus was definitly "less impressive that I expected". We encountered him two sessions ago. I'm a 10th level paladin...and I basically kicked his ass pretty much by my self. Toe to toe. Mind you, I do have a longsword +1 with Holy and Axiomatic on it, blessed as well...that *definitly* hurt him. He eventually took out the peral and dropped it. I cought it. He tried to sunder it in my hand and missed...so I put it in my mouth. :) He died quickly thereafter.
lol yes, the "inital" Vanthus is a pushover, for sure ( Hereabouts, he went down with a single blow in our STAP, warblade 10th level moved in with the holy greatsword from the Jaguar temple, "bladebane" enhanced versus evil ousiders, struck with Elder Mountain Strike, critted (he has Imp. Crit), rolled 16D6 (weapon and strike) + 4d6 (holy + bane)+ 24 slightly above average and scored 108 points ignoring all DR...... Vanthus did not even get time to gloat =( ), and basically, looking at Vanthus' "CR 20" Stats, he is going to be one again, given how damage for PCs scales. I actually plan to exchange some of his equip so he picks up a 'cloak of displacement' or similar bauble to have him survive the initial volley of arrows, orbs (no SR, no save... 15D6+ empower/maximize...) and strikes.
And even with a HP boost, looking at the raw irresistble damage output a warmage can generate these days.....
lol yes, the "inital" Vanthus is a pushover, for sure ( Hereabouts, he went down with a single blow in our STAP, warblade 10th level moved in with the holy greatsword from the Jaguar temple, "bladebane" enhanced versus evil ousiders, struck with Elder Mountain Strike, critted (he has Imp. Crit), rolled 16D6 (weapon and strike) + 4d6 (holy + bane)+ 24 slightly above average and scored 108 points ignoring all DR...... Vanthus did not even get time to gloat =( ), and basically, looking at Vanthus' "CR 20" Stats, he is going to be one again, given how damage for PCs scales. I actually plan to exchange some of his equip so he picks up a 'cloak of displacement' or similar bauble to have him survive the initial volley of arrows, orbs (no SR, no save... 15D6+ empower/maximize...) and strikes.
And even with a HP boost, looking at the raw irresistble damage output a warmage can generate these days.....
And there is the reason why Book of Nine Swords has been banned from my campaign. Don't mean to threadjack, but talk about broken!
And there is the reason why Book of Nine Swords has been banned from my campaign. Don't mean to threadjack, but talk about broken!
#1 It was a crit. Crits are supposed to hurt. If Vanthus could survive a lucky crit and be unhindered, how on earth would groups not lucky enough to get that lucky crit ever beat him?
#2 108 points of damage is comparable to a 10th-level fighter's expected output on a full Power Attack Leap Attack. And the fighter doesn't need to recover maneuvers.
#3 The damage calculation is wrong. Elder Mountain Hammer deals +6d6 damage, and as extra damage dice, these are not multiplied in a crit. Strike damage is also explicitly never multiplied on a crit(p43). The damage should have been 4d6(weapon crit) + 10d6(strike, holy, bane) + 24(bonuses crit). The damage should be about 21 less from this alone.
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And there is the reason why Book of Nine Swords has been banned from my campaign. Don't mean to threadjack, but talk about broken!lol yes, the "inital" Vanthus is a pushover, for sure ( Hereabouts, he went down with a single blow in our STAP, warblade 10th level moved in with the holy greatsword from the Jaguar temple, "bladebane" enhanced versus evil ousiders, struck with Elder Mountain Strike, critted (he has Imp. Crit), rolled 16D6 (weapon and strike) + 4d6 (holy + bane)+ 24 slightly above average and scored 108 points ignoring all DR...... Vanthus did not even get time to gloat =( ), and basically, looking at Vanthus' "CR 20" Stats, he is going to be one again, given how damage for PCs scales. I actually plan to exchange some of his equip so he picks up a 'cloak of displacement' or similar bauble to have him survive the initial volley of arrows, orbs (no SR, no save... 15D6+ empower/maximize...) and strikes.
And even with a HP boost, looking at the raw irresistble damage output a warmage can generate these days.....
Not broken as the lil' kobold above mentioned. Most of the book just re-flavors fighter-types with interesting options. Have you banned Clerics and Wizards also? They are way overpowered compared to any class in the BoNS.
I hate knee-jerk reactions.FH
I'm hoping to replace his undead minions thing (come on, it's not needed here!), and replace it with bonus HP equal to Cha modifier/2HD (or per HD, if I'm that cruel :P). That'll challenge them, hopefully...
My initial point was that the CR system is broken at higher levels and that corporeal undead need to be tougher, particularly if they are front-rank fighters. i'd even go so far as to say that corporeal and incorporeal undead should have different rules regarding their BAB, hit points, and other factors. Incorporeal undead are nasty, while corporeal undead (except for classed undead such as vampires and liches) are too weak.
As for the Book of Nine Swords. I just say what's good for the goose is just as good for the gander. If my players can play warblades (considered the most broken of the BoNS 20-level classes) then so can my monsters.
I was under the impression that undead could not be critted???
I was under the impression that undead could not be critted???
Yep, of course Vanthus is a wuss when someone crits an undead, and damage that isn't supposed to be doubled is doubled. Sometimes, the CR-system isn't flawed, but the GM is.
Hmm.. maybe the one who critted him critted him before he became a death knight? As in, Vantus Ver 2.0 (The Lemorian version)?
And there is the reason why Book of Nine Swords has been banned from my campaign. Don't mean to threadjack, but talk about broken!#1 It was a crit. Crits are supposed to hurt. If Vanthus could survive a lucky crit and be unhindered, how on earth would groups not lucky enough to get that lucky crit ever beat him?
#2 108 points of damage is comparable to a 10th-level fighter's expected output on a full Power Attack Leap Attack. And the fighter doesn't need to recover maneuvers.
#3 The damage calculation is wrong. Elder Mountain Hammer deals +6d6 damage, and as extra damage dice, these are not multiplied in a crit. Strike damage is also explicitly never multiplied on a crit(p43). The damage should have been 4d6(weapon crit) + 10d6(strike, holy, bane) + 24(bonuses crit). The damage should be about 21 less from this alone.
Not to threadjack myself, but the damage done to Vanthus by that PC should have been even less. Vanthus is considered a Native Outsider; a "baneblade" enhancement versus Evil Outsiders shouldn't have affected him in the least. They're considered two different types.
I know the DMG doesn't list Native Outsiders under the Bane weapon ability, but since everything else from the Ranger's favored enemy list is there, it was probably just a bit of errata, and should be included.
Just my two humble coppers - YMMV :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
I ran the fight with Vanthus today; I gave him DR 15/cold iron and good, BAB = HD, unholy toughness for 171 hp, and sickle crit 19-20/x4. In hindsight, I should also have given him Dark Blessing (+ Cha mod to saves) and an aura of despair, as a blackguard. His tactics are badly flawed as written; his spell-like abilities are largely useless (save DCs too low). Instead, I'd have him call his nightmare and melee, using the steed to get flanking bonuses (and in the enclosed space he'll benefit greatly from the concealment from the smoke, to which he should be immune). Have the shadow demons flank invaders as well. The only advantage to having him run outside is that you can make the body (and all the gear) fall into the lava when he gets knocked off.
Not to threadjack myself, but the damage done to Vanthus by that PC should have been even less. Vanthus is considered a Native Outsider; a "baneblade" enhancement versus Evil Outsiders shouldn't have affected him in the least. They're considered two different types.I know the DMG doesn't list Native Outsiders under the Bane weapon ability, but since everything else from the Ranger's favored enemy list is there, it was probably just a bit of errata, and should be included.
Just my two humble coppers - YMMV :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
Disagree. By RAW it works, It would seem they decided to roll native and non-native into a single package in this case - which is probably a good thing.
Allowing Rangers to target native outsiders as a favoured enemy is so worthless as to simply be irrelivent. Basically it just makes the outsider favoured enemy option less useful. Not to mention being really rather bizzare - what kind of a ranger specializes in slicing up half-celestians as well as half-fiends? What the heck; Is this some kind of planar racism? (Planism?). A class that hunts down the off spring of outsiders no matter what their alighnment.
I mean conceptually the idea is kind of cool but I don't really think it was the best idea all in all. Still it is there and Rangers are so restricted but not bane weapons.
I mean conceptually the idea is kind of cool but I don't really think it was the best idea all in all. Still it is there and Rangers are so restricted but not bane weapons.
Maybe you could house rule that the Ranger's favoured enemy in this case applies to only good/evil (the opposite of the ranger's alignment). Neutral allows you to pick which.
Not to threadjack myself, but the damage done to Vanthus by that PC should have been even less. Vanthus is considered a Native Outsider; a "baneblade" enhancement versus Evil Outsiders shouldn't have affected him in the least. They're considered two different types.I know the DMG doesn't list Native Outsiders under the Bane weapon ability, but since everything else from the Ranger's favored enemy list is there, it was probably just a bit of errata, and should be included.
Just my two humble coppers - YMMV :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"Disagree. By RAW it works, It would seem they decided to roll native and non-native into a single package in this case - which is probably a good thing.
Allowing Rangers to target native outsiders as a favoured enemy is so worthless as to simply be irrelivent. Basically it just makes the outsider favoured enemy option less useful. Not to mention being really rather bizzare - what kind of a ranger specializes in slicing up half-celestians as well as half-fiends? What the heck; Is this some kind of planar racism? (Planism?). A class that hunts down the off spring of outsiders no matter what their alighnment.
I mean conceptually the idea is kind of cool but I don't really think it was the best idea all in all. Still it is there and Rangers are so restricted but not bane weapons.
Hi Jeremy!
I agree with you that Native Outsiders do throw a heck of a curveball into the Favored Enemy concept. I started thinking about all the permutations of this little issue, and here's where it led me...
The problem is that, as written, Vanthus doesn't have the Evil subtype, which means he couldn't be rolled into the Evil Oustider category. (In fact, I'm not sure that any Native Outsider has an alignment subtype, since it is only supposed to apply to natives of an evil-aligned outer plane, and Native Outsiders are tied to the Material).
The question then becomes: Which is a more potent ability?
1) Being essentially immune to Bane Weapons; or
2) Gaining an alignment subtype, and the ability to overcome DR as such
Now as far as the planar racism issue, let's not forget that a Ranger can select Humanoid (Human) as a favored enemy. Humans can be of any alignment, and yet there is a Humanoid (Human) Bane weapon listing. It stands to reason that if you can have one, you can legitimately have the other; we have an established precedent here.
This issue may need to get its own thread - methinks it has taken on a life of its own :)
Apologies to the OP, though I hope this information provides some food for thought. James, Steve - I'd love to hear your opinions on this issue, especially since there will be some more encounters with Native Outsiders after ToD. Thanks all and debate on!! :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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The D&D FAQ actually defines what constitutes an "evil outsider", and Vanthus the half-fiend certainly qualifies while he is still alive. Evil outsider bane weapons would work just dandy on him at the time in question.
From the FAQ:
An outsider is "evil" if it has any evil alignment (chaotic evil, netural evil, or lawful evil). For the purpose of resolving any effect whose results depend on subject's alignment, an outsider is also "evil" if it has the evil subtype, no matter what its alignment actually is (see the evil subtype description in the Glossary of the Monster Manual.
Holy water deals damage to undead and to evil outsiders that it strikes. An evil outsider bane weapon is more potent against evil outsiders. Since a tiefling is an outsider with the native subtype, it is susceptible to holy water or the incrased effects from an evil outsider bane weapon only if it has an evil alignment.
The D&D FAQ actually defines what constitutes an "evil outsider", and Vanthus the half-fiend certainly qualifies while he is still alive. Evil outsider bane weapons would work just dandy on him at the time in question.
From the FAQ:
An outsider is "evil" if it has any evil alignment (chaotic evil, netural evil, or lawful evil). For the purpose of resolving any effect whose results depend on subject's alignment, an outsider is also "evil" if it has the evil subtype, no matter what its alignment actually is (see the evil subtype description in the Glossary of the Monster Manual.Holy water deals damage to undead and to evil outsiders that it strikes. An evil outsider bane weapon is more potent against evil outsiders. Since a tiefling is an outsider with the native subtype, it is susceptible to holy water or the incrased effects from an evil outsider bane weapon only if it has an evil alignment.
Aha - I was trolling around the SRD for the type and subtype definitions to make sure I was thinking straight, but I missed that little bit of text. That would indeed make the 'Native Outsider' as a favored enemy seem a bit silly, and would make its removal the easier of the two solutions mechanics-wise. Thanks for that info Russ!
This is (unfortunately) going to make my party's Ranger/Totemic Demonslayer a very happy camper. Time to go trick out my Vanthus a wee bit more...
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"