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I have a player that always plays a ninja.
It seems to me that the Ghost Step ability is way too powerful. The little bugger just turns invisible, attacks for tremendous amounts of damage, and steps 5' away. He drastically overpowers the party's strong arm, and has more kills than everyone else combined (including the trigger-happy, lightning bolt flinging, flying wizard ;).
I am seriously considering changing the Ghost Step ability from invisibility to Hide in Plain Sight - probably wont change much since his Hide skill is maxed out anyway.
Thoughts, comments, concerns?
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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It seems to me that the Ghost Step ability is way too powerful. The little bugger just turns invisible, attacks for tremendous amounts of damage, and steps 5' away. He drastically overpowers the party's strong arm, and has more kills than everyone else combined (including the trigger-happy, lightning bolt flinging, flying wizard ;).
There are numerous ways to mitigate the ninja's ability to use Ghost Step effectively. Sure, he's almost always going to get a few shots in, but is it really any worse than a rogue?
First, your opponents should seek to grapple the weasely bastard. Ninjas become much less effective when being manhandled by strong opponents. Second, Ghost Step is very potent in the early levels. Once things like see invisibility start coming into play, it loses a lot of its versatility and usefulness. Concealment is also your friend. If an opponent has any concealment at all, whether it be from darkness, a blur spell, or any number of other things, Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike will not work on them. Their vital areas are too obscured to be attacked properly.
Also, I'm curious as to what level the ninja in question is if he is out-damaging a wizard capable of casting lightning bolt. Lightning bolt deals 1d6 damage per caster level. Sudden Strike deals 1d6 per two ninja levels (assuming he's not multiclassed at all). If the characters are the same level, unless your ninja is making multiple attacks, your wizard should easily beat him on the damage scale.
Regarding your ninja's strategy: You said he Ghost Steps, attacks, and takes a 5 ft. step away. How does he keep this up for more than one round? Unless the enemy steps forward to attack him after the fact, next round the ninja will need to use his 5 ft. step to get back INTO melee in order to make his attack and then he will be subject to the enemy's counterattack (since he's used his 5 ft. step and can't move back out). Also, have you considered creatures with reach or reach weapons? The 5 ft. step tactic won't help him much in those situations.
Finally, unless he's got some insane CON score, your ninja should have pretty weak Fortitude saves. Use his own tricks against him. Have foes attack him with poisons. Or better yet: Necromancies! Nothing will ruin a ninja's day like a ghoul touch.
Hope this helps!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I only have experience with a low level ninja, but ghost step is what makes their sneak attack variation work. Without that ability, setting up their extra damage requires a lot of work. I would actually go so far as to say that it helps the wizard - a rogue of equivalent level will want the wizard to cast improved invisibility on him. Ghost step lets the ninja gain that ability without pestering the wizard for it.
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I only have experience with a low level ninja, but ghost step is what makes their sneak attack variation work. Without that ability, setting up their extra damage requires a lot of work. I would actually go so far as to say that it helps the wizard - a rogue of equivalent level will want the wizard to cast improved invisibility on him. Ghost step lets the ninja gain that ability without pestering the wizard for it.
I agree, that's why I would assume Hide in Plain Sight would be almost as good - if you make your Hide check you get to sudden strike, otherwise take you move action! This at least gives low-level opponents a chance.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I agree, that's why I would assume Hide in Plain Sight would be almost as good - if you make your Hide check you get to sudden strike, otherwise take you move action! This at least gives low-level opponents a chance.
I guess the issue I would have is that I don't see why the ninja getting to use sudden strike is all that different from a rogue getting to use sneak attack while flanking. If the latter is not unbalanced, then why is the former? Plus, the rogue gets iterative sneak attacks while flanking, whereas the invisibility is gone after a single attack.
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thanks!
There are numerous ways to mitigate the ninja's ability to use Ghost Step effectively. Sure, he's almost always going to get a few shots in, but is it really any worse than a rogue?
It seems like it is better to be able to go invisible at key moments, controling the flatfootedness of your opponent.
First, your opponents should seek to grapple the weasely bastard. Ninjas become much less effective when being manhandled by strong opponents. Second, Ghost Step is very potent in the early levels. Once things like see invisibility start coming into play, it loses a lot of its versatility and usefulness. Concealment is also your friend. If an opponent has any concealment at all, whether it be from darkness, a blur spell, or any number of other things, Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike will not work on them. Their vital areas are too obscured to be attacked properly.?
I'm in the process of experimenting with different encounters. I plan on incorporating more undead, perceptive critters (scent, see invisible, ect), and even a run in with a monsterous ninja (from Red Hand of Doom)! We'll see how it plays out...
Also, I'm curious as to what level the ninja in question is if he is out-damaging a wizard capable of casting lightning bolt. Lightning bolt deals 1d6 damage per caster level. Sudden Strike deals 1d6 per two ninja levels (assuming he's not multiclassed at all). If the characters are the same level, unless your ninja is making multiple attacks, your wizard should easily beat him on the damage scale.?
The wizard does his fair share of damage to be sure! He even usually wounds the silly ninja since he's invisible all the time and gets caught up in area effects. My players are all 6th level. So far the ninja is the primary source of monster hurting.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Plus, the rogue gets iterative sneak attacks while flanking, whereas the invisibility is gone after a single attack.
This is true, but bear in mind that an opponent is treated as flat-footed against a given foe until the opponent's next action after the invisibility ends. Therefore, if you've got a dual-wielding ninja with a high BAB and Improved or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, you could very well land 6 Sudden Strike attacks on an opponent in a given round.
This is no different from a rogue with the same build in a flanking situation, however. Plus, the rogue doesn't have a limited number of times per day he is able to flank. The ninja's Ghost Step is limited (though not much). I don't really see an imbalance here, I just thought I would illustrate the fact that you CAN get more than one Sudden Strike attack per round.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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This is true, but bear in mind that an opponent is treated as flat-footed against a given foe until the opponent's next action after the invisibility ends. Therefore, if you've got a dual-wielding ninja with a high BAB and Improved or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, you could very well land 6 Sudden Strike attacks on an opponent in a given round.
Do you have a source for that? I'm pretty sure I've seen sage advice on the topic of iterative attacks, invisibility, and sneak attacks and that the conclusion was you only get the sneak attack on the first iterative attack. After that point, your foe is no longer flat-footed because he can see you. I don't remember seeing anything about having to wait until the beginning of your turn.
From the Rules of the Game Article on Sneak Attack (Part II):
Perhaps the most common form of total concealment is the invisibility spell. A regular invisibility effect is broken when you attack. If you begin your turn under such an effect and you're making multiple attacks, you'll be invisible only for the first attack and your opponent will be denied Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) against that first attack.
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I agree, that's why I would assume Hide in Plain Sight would be almost as good - if you make your Hide check you get to sudden strike, otherwise take you move action! This at least gives low-level opponents a chance.I guess the issue I would have is that I don't see why the ninja getting to use sudden strike is all that different from a rogue getting to use sneak attack while flanking. If the latter is not unbalanced, then why is the former? Plus, the rogue gets iterative sneak attacks while flanking, whereas the invisibility is gone after a single attack.
Your point is well taken - I do not have as much experience with rogues to compare...
As for the invisibility, according to the official errata, Ghost Step is more like greater invisibility. It doesn't go away until the beginning of the next turn (when he usually opts to stay invisible).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As for the invisibility, according to the official errata, Ghost Step is more like greater invisibility. It doesn't go away until the beginning of the next turn (when he usually opts to stay invisible).
Can you provide a link to the errata? I pulled the Complete Adventurer Errata off wizards and don't see that.
Also, keep in mind there's a difference between the duration being extended until the beginning of the next turn and continuing after an attack is made. The invisibility spell has a duration of (I think) 1 min per level. However, if you attack in the first round of the first minute, it is dispelled. Similarly, even if the ghost step ability grans invisibility for an entire round, attacking will dispel it earlier.
Edit: Huh. That's totally unexpected. Disregard the above.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Do you have a source for that?It's in official FAQ found here.
I did find the part about ninja invisibility being like greater invisibility, but don't see anything about being flat-footed for an entire round against an invisible opponent even after they become visible (which, I believe, was Fatespinner's point).
Great thread though. I learned a lot.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I did find the part about ninja invisibility being like greater invisibility, but don't see anything about being flat-footed for an entire round against an invisible opponent even after they become visible (which, I believe, was Fatespinner's point).
Yeah, I was under the impression that invisibility basically created a new 'surprise round' for the invisible attacker and that, thusly, opponents were treated as flat-footed until their next action. I may have been wrong, though, after re-reading the rules just now. Hmmm.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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As for the invisibility, according to the official errata, Ghost Step is more like greater invisibility. It doesn't go away until the beginning of the next turn (when he usually opts to stay invisible).
Yeeeeesh. Greater Invisibility for 1 round as a swift action granted by an ability that the class gets at level TWO??? That's harsh. I don't know if it falls into 'overpowered' or not yet, though. It definitely changes the way I THOUGHT they worked, though, as evidenced by the fight about 16 posts down on this page of my PbP game.
To my PbP players: If you hadn't figured it out yet, yes, Kaja had ninja levels.
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Yeah the Ghost step is actually pretty nifty acting like Improved INvis... but it's still not that big a whoop at low levels. Use a dog or any other beastie with Scent against the pesky ninja. If nothing else they can help pinpoint the Ninja for real characters to bash.
I'm playing a Ninja in a game. I've worked that with an exotic weapon the Kusari-gama.
What book is the Kusari-gama in? I believe I know what one is, but in OA it is 1d6/1d4 19-20x2 double weapon with reach. How do you get 3d6 is that with ghost step and sudden strike?
Fizz
Could you answer some questions. Is your character using ghost step, moving into combat, attacking and then moving 5 ft away? How fast is the character moving. this affects spot and listen checks to find him. A DC 20 listen or spot will allow victims to locate your character's square even moving 5 ft away. The 5ft of movement does not prevent the victim from using his 5ft move to step up for a full attack action, even though he has a 50% miss chance. Invisibility is available as early as 3rd level, so is see invisibility. So neither is incredibly uncommon. A well organized unit will be aware of the strengths and weakness of such an attack. Consider we use guard dogs; in the days of castles geese were used, to prevent anyone from sneaking in easily.
I suggest checking out "There not there" under Articles and Rules of the Game on the wizards site for dealing with invisibility.
I've got a ninja in my campaign and I really can't say I think the class is overpowered. Underpowered if anything. OK the class gets Ghost Step - we all agree that this is a cool ability and if you can attack (and hit) multiple times its really pretty nasty. Still the rogue can do more or less the same thing with flanking - still the ninja gets to be invisible so lets say that the Ghost Step ability is better then flanking in this regard. OK all of this is true and then we have the other cool ninja abilities like ... umm .... err ... I'm sure there are other cool abilities. Uhh could some one help me out here I need to find these other cool ninja abilities.
The next ability that the ninja gets thats worth talking about is the one where he can go ethereal and this does not show up until some pretty freaken high level. Ghost step rocks but you can only use it for one round per level. Thats a pretty significant restriction even if it is a bit better then flanking and after that the ninja just does not have much going for it. Rogues get some other rocking abilities - evasion, uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge alone make them comparable to the ninja in my opinion.
I would really think twice before nerfing the one cool ability that the ninja has before 12th level or whatever. Until the highest levels the ninja can't even do this very often and when those high levels come about there will be all sorts of creatures that can nerf his ability in all sorts of ways.
Uggghhhhhh, I wish the ninja was overpowered, then maybe mine would still be alive.... Anyways, there are very easy ways to balance out the ghost step/sudden strike ability or even nullify it if you would like. They are called constructs, elementals, undead, and oozes as well as anything else that is immune to critical hits. A huge earth and a large air elemental pretty much ruined my day when I couldn't use my sudden strike and my MAX damage was right around their DR, which meant that I was pretty much useless for the battle and died trying to save one of the other players. Futhermore, a ninja doesn't get an endless number of ghost steps a day, it is limited to their wis modifier plus 1/2 their class level times per day. Furthermore, by using their focus only for ghost step it greatly reduces the players effectiveness in the long run because they can't do any of their other tricks. If one of your players is using ghost step on every round you should start keeping track of how many they have used in a day. I pretty much guarantee that they can't use it every round unless you are only putting them through one combat per day. Also, if you want to be a really evil DM, then design encounters where they fight really easy masses of guys before the big baddies to try and get him to waste ghost steps on them :)
I have to agree with those people who have said that ninjas are somewhat underpowered in the right circumstances. Frankly, they need the ghost step ability to set up their sudden strike attacks. Otherwise, once combat is joined the ninja must resort to normal attacks. The ghost step ability has to be added to the class to let the ninja keep up with the rogue and the scout (with its brutal skirmish ability).
There are so many ways of cancelling or neutering invisibility that they are not even worth mentioning. Spells like faerie fire and invisibility purge can ruin a ninja's day. Plus people have already mentioned all the creatures with immunity to the sudden strike ability. I'm really flogging a dead horse here, but the ninja is certainly not overpowered.