I've been trying to decide what class to play as in the upcoming Savage Tides campaign my gaming group is about to play. It has come down between the Spell Thief in the Complete Adventurer, and some form of an up close, melee Gish(I believe that is the correct term) caster. I already know if I do that, then Abjurant Champion is a pretty sure must have PrC. But then what?
I've never played a gish before so I'm not sure what the best combination is, should I try the Rage Mage, the Spell Sword, or some other combination? I would like to be an actual able bodied melee character with some helpful spells on the side. I will probably start out as a barbarian or a fighter, and I will be a human...but aside from that, and the Abjurant Champion I am lost in a sea of possibilities. Oh, and is it just me or does the Spell sword seem a little underpowered, or has anyone played it and knows it isn't?
Basically I need to know:
Who has played a Spell Thief and what do you think about it.
How I can best combine melee with casting spells.
Is the Spell Sword underpowered.
And everyones experiences with gishes and the above classes.
Thanks ahead of time everyone.
Sir Smashes Alot
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Duskblade. PHB2.
Limited spell selection, channel spells through melee attacks, decent blaster capabilities, ability to wear medium armor without ASF, decent HD, the only real drawback is that your role in the group is to do damage. Lots of damage.
Not much in the way of utility spells but a great "let me slice you with my sword charged up with shocking grasp for god-awful amounts of pain" type of guy or "let me hang back and slam you with ray spells until you collapse" type of guy.
They are fun to play and, contrary to popular belief, not overpowered.
FH
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Duskblade. PHB2.
Limited spell selection, channel spells through melee attacks, decent blaster capabilities, ability to wear medium armor without ASF, decent HD, the only real drawback is that your role in the group is to do damage. Lots of damage.
Not much in the way of utility spells but a great "let me slice you with my sword charged up with shocking grasp for god-awful amounts of pain" type of guy or "let me hang back and slam you with ray spells until you collapse" type of guy.
They are fun to play and, contrary to popular belief, not overpowered.FH
BTW- stay with the class 1-20 or throw in a couple levels of wizard.
FH
I agree with Fake Healer. Duskblade is the way to go. I still like Eldritch Knights because of their versatility, and it is because of this that the PrC remains viable. Most other fighter/mage PrCs are negated by the duskblade.
Yes, spellsword is just a tad underpowered, and completely obsolete with the duskblade. If you were looking into this class, that just seals the deal. As previously mentioned, having some utility and versatility is the Eldritch Knight's domain, but if the spellsword is what was appealing to you, then the course is set. You won't have much utility stuff (uhm, actually, NO utility stuff), but the damage potential is excellent. Plus, no burning feats on Practised Spellcaster or arcane spell failure reduction. How does mithril full plate with no chance of a fizzle sound?
As for weapon style, I can't really recommend TWF for a fighter/mage. Too feat intensive, and depending on the build, too low of a BAB. No, what you want is a Big Honking Sword. Greatsword, greataxe, falchion, etc. Something like that. Then make it spell storing and combine it with the duskblade's channeling ability and what enemies splode. Combining a channeled and stored vampiric touch is a particularly brutal combination. >:)
I've decided my class/PrC selections(Eric the Cleric posted this above, and I thought it was a really great build):
Wizard 6, Fighter 1, Spell Sword 1, Abjurant Champion 5, Eldritch Knight 7
With a full set of attacks, and 9th lvl spells, you really can't go wrong. Now I just need to know what kind of spells I should get to enhance my parties(and my) abilities in melee. Bulls Strength Mass and what'not are a must, but what others can really improve my group. I'm also trying to be a little protective against spells and other creatures because, as usual, there will be no healer in the group. Battle control spells are also a must(especially time stop), and I will be getting a few feats like Craft Magic Weapons so I can create that +5 kick @$$ Great Sword. So, what spells/feats do you guys have in mind for a caster like that?
P.S: Thanks for the correction on the Gish problem Eric, and I don't have the PHBII so I don't know what the dusk blade is a whole, but it sounds like a damage dealing fighter.
Sir Smashes Alot
I know you have already made a decision but I wanted to comment on the Spell Theif. It's a neat class, but is made to fill the role of the Theif not arcane spellcaster. Also I have a player in my STAP game who plays a kobold Spell Theif and we are on the fifth adventure. There has only been a couple of opportunities to steal something so he feels that the stealing part is just ok.
As for weapon style, I can't really recommend TWF for a fighter/mage. Too feat intensive, and depending on the build, too low of a BAB. No, what you want is a Big Honking Sword. Greatsword, greataxe, falchion, etc. Something like that. Then make it spell storing and combine it with the duskblade's channeling ability and what enemies splode. Combining a channeled and stored vampiric touch is a particularly brutal combination. >:)
Also if you have two weapons in your hands what happens when you want to cast a spell that does not go through your sword? Drop the weapon?
Jeremy brings up a good point, and in many cases, I think Quick Draw is a very good feat for caster/warriors (including many clerics and druids) to take. Luckily, you're going to be using the good ole' reliabel, simple greatsword.
So, let's see. Uhm.... POWER ATTACK, mayhaps? Yes, I think that's a good idea. :)
Also, Craft Magic Arms and Armor is a really good one that I hadn't thought of before. Having to combine the costs of both a wizard and a fighter, getting at least the fighter stuff at half price is awesome.
I'd also suggest Extend Spell to double the duration of your buffs. Heavily consider using many scrolls for buffs. Typically, the party choose the fail the save (I have yet to encounter the fighter who said, "No! I don't want your stinking bull's strength!), and if extended, the lower caster level of scrolls typically doesn't matter, at least for 1 round/level jobs like greater invisibility). And, as a wizard, you get Scribe Scroll for free!
Speaking of buff spells, fox's cunning may help you out. If you don't plan on being an attack caster (i.e., fireballs out the wazoo), you can get by with a lower Int (are you rolling or using point buy?), but in case you do need a good save DC, fox's cunning is great and is much cheaper than a headband of intellect +4! False life is also highly recommended.
Fly, invisibility, and later improved invisibility are also good ones. (Is there a mass fly, too?)
While were not on the subject, get a spell-storing weapon, as well.
Improved Toughness may be a good feat to take (+1hp/level and it's retroactive, too).
You can use your magic primarily for buffing, but don't forget a little offense, too. Mainly focus on debuffs and battlefield control for this. Slow, ray of enfeeblement, ghoul touch, Evard's black tentacles, ice wall, etc. You're not going to be as effective a fighter as, well, the fighter, but you can still lend the combat control and support of a wizard, and use that to separate out foes and force single combats and other encounters more favorable to yourself.
Oh, and don't forget to pick up Practised Spellcaster to regain CL lost from multiclassing. With that, you should be at CL 20 at the end of the build, though you won't have quite as many spells per day.
Also, don't neglect illusions, summonings, and out-of-combat utility spells. The illusions, as well as things like knock, will give you something to do outside of combat (as well as the illusions being useful in battles as well), and summonings can be applied to a variety of situations.
Now I'm itching to try a fighter/mage as well!
I'm sorry about your decision to go wizard with your gish- unless you REALLY REALLY want utilitarian spells and HATE wearing armor.
But more so I find it sad that you have so many levels of so many different things. Sure, do the crazy "I've got special abilities" build, but combat isn't going to get much better. Still, I understand the 9th level spells being a factor. I never really thought about taking more than one PrC, but hey- if it works for you and you get higher caster level- maybe I should look at a similar build. I'm not much of a spell caster player though. Now I'm wondering if I can get 9th level spells and combat abilities in a Bard build though...(I made a roguish bard that I never got to play...sniff. Knowledge is power dammit)
Not familiar with some of the PrCs mentioned, but they're easier to take than regular classes and I've never actually played Spellthief (though I took a good look at it) I wouldn't go spellthief unless I planned to do exactly that- Thieve spells. Doesn't look like a great combat build- not much better than a rogue with a few magic devices.
I have gone ftr/warmage with an Elf build of mine (I don't recall if I went Grey or not- but that is an option) and with really decent rolls- obscenely high int with decently high cha, str and dex without dumping con too much either...Warmage edge man. I think I tanked my wisdom, but hey- you get saves for that as a caster. (for Skill points, you might consider going Warmage first on a similar build, but then you wouldn't get the automatic 10 hp base)
Seriously, for middle levels and human a dual class fighter/warmage style you can't go wrong. 6th level, I started Ftr2/Warmage4 with 18 Int and I was saving the party like every session, doing the most damage spell wise often enough- but I also did my skills and equipment pretty good, picked up the druid in bird form and her animal companion and climbed out of a sticky situation between two Oozes in a corridor on a mod (16 str I think?). But again, I had very good rolls- perfect for a versatile character that is almost dreadfully overpowered. Still Int added skills and I had a climber's kit- that's how it was possible. (plus it was mega heroic, tumbling past one Ooze to save the unconscious druid).
You also get to wear armor. Elven Chain the hell out of it until you get Medium proficiency (or keep it)- you can wear a buckler from the start if I'm correct. Otherwise, go caster without armor and bump up your AC in other ways.
Elven dex kept the build viable too I might add. (Though Human or Half-elf is possibly the better option due to Multi-classing.)
Advanced Learning allows some tactical and semi-utilitarian Evocation spells (there aren't really any truely utilitarian Evocation spells).
But until you get fireball or lightening especially, for fire vulnerable critters- flaming sphere and fireburst for the ones who try to engage you in combat (5ft radius, larger if you enlarge it).
Precise shot for orbs (ranged touch), disrupt undead and keep a distance from slaughter wights. Keep Quick Draw, it keeps you out of trouble, as a fighter feat (use your fighter feats to your advantage) and go combat casting or metamagic for the rest. With buckler you keep one hand sort of free for casting. Also- combat reflexes is an option- as it keeps you out of trouble, but then so could the Dodge track and Mobility.
Complete Arcane makes it all possible, and has other options.
I agree with some of the above, Duskblade is a good choice. Colorspray, smack the blind suckers. Still that works best at low levels.
Still, if I wanted a caster in combat- and armor, and utilitarian spells- I'd just go cleric with good domains. St. Cuthbert maybe.
But if you're stuck on Arcane, sorcerer builds can work. With decent stats with Sorcerer or Wizard, you can go Elf and never really have to dip into fighter or martial proficiencies if you don't want to wear armor anyway- just fight with a rapier or longsword and a bow. Dex it up and keep the spells coming. No HD, but you can take toad, not dump your con, take wizard as elf and multiclass later.
Another alternative, Dragonchess Player suggested one good build, which is something like (please correct me if I'm wrong, DP!): Wizard6/Fighter1/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/Eldritch Knight7, which ends up with BAB +17, and spells as a Wizard 18.
The build I use is Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 8/Archmage 4, but then I didn't envision the character as a main-line combatant. Battle Sorcerer 15/Abjurant Champion 5 might be a better option in this case. +16 BAB, medium armor (with the Battle Caster feat at 3rd level), and full spell progression (at one less spell known and spell slot at each spell level).
One nasty option is to have the character take Wandstrike at 6th level and invest in a couple of wands as melee AND ranged weapons. Arcane Strike is a good feat to take when you get multiple attacks (at 9th level). Quick Draw is a feat I usually do without (utilizing glove(s) of storing when possible).
Now I'm wondering if I can get 9th level spells and combat abilities in a Bard build though......(I made a roguish bard that I never got to play...sniff. Knowledge is power dammit)
Sublime Chord from Complete Arcane gets you 9th level spells at the cost of some skills (4+Int) and poor BAB progression. Bladesinger from Complete Warrior gives full BAB progression at the cost of poor skills (2+Int), no bardic music or lore increases, and slow spellcasting progression. Warchanter from Complete Warrior gives you full BAB progression at the cost of some skills (4+Int) and all spellcasting progression.
You could also go Rogue 2/Bard 8/Daggerspell Mage 10 if you want a sneaky bard who doesn't mind trading bardic music and lore for sneak attacks and other special abilities.