I honestly haven't run many dragons in my lifetime as a DM, the second one I ever got to run was Illthane a few weeks back and I am unsure how well I did with her?.
So I would like to solicit tactical suggestions from my fellow gamemasters as to how to make the combats really interesting and challenging. While the party did almost die to her, that was mainly brought out of surprize on her part. As I am reading through the future adventures (such as Kings of the Rift) I can see some rather complex battles coming up.
Running dragons, like running all intelligent, high-level opponents, is very difficult. They have an impressive array of tactics and powers to choose from. In my own campaign, dragons are intended to be awesome foes, and I always play them tough. You have to realize that dragons are very smart and very cunning fighters. Older dragons in particular are extraordinarily experienced at combat, and will pull out every trick in the book. You can expect that they will not plunge into any combat in which they don't already have a plan for how to defeat their enemies. They generally have the speed to be able to retreat from any battle they aren't ready for and come back later. So in most cases, they will have cast appropriate buffs before joining combat. In all cases, they will have assessed ahead of time whether they want to fight at range using breath weapon and spells or close for physical combat. The older dragons also have an impressive number of feats and special attacks, and you should take advantage of them. Some of my favorites are Fly-By Attack, Quickened Breath Weapon, Snatch, Crush, Tail Sweep and Alternate Breath Weapon. They also have truly awesome strength, which gives them great grapple check scores, and you can count on them to take advantage of it. Once a dragon grabs a PC, they've generally got them until they choose to let go.
Right now, my AOW campaign is at the end of KOTR, halfway through what is shaping up to be an epic battle with Brazzemal. In the first round after making his appearance, surprising about half the party, he breathed, sending the sorcerer into unconsciousness and wounding just about everybody else. In the next round the party wizard tried to seal Brazzemal off behind a wall of force while the monk grabbed the phylactery and made a run for it. Brazzemal responded with his own Wall of Force blocking the door. Meanwhile the cleric cast mass heal, getting the sorcerer back up. She cast Mordenkainen's Magnificant Mansion, hoping to take refuge in it until the dragon gave up. Brazzemal teleported past the wall of force and landed on the cleric, using Crush to pin him helplessly to the ground, and blocking one side of the gateway to the mansion. Several party members darted into the mansion through the other side of the portal, but the dragon let them go and saved his attack of opportunity for the monk with the phylactery, grabbing him as he tried to get by. The monk then used dimension door to get out of the dragon's grasp, but stayed in the room, hoping to get past him to the mansion to join the rest of the party (except the poor unfortunate cleric). When the monk made another run at it, however, the dragon grabbed him again. This time, the wizard darted out of the mansion, grabbed the monk and cast greater teleport - destination Magepoint. And that is where we left it this week. The monk and the wizard are in Magepoint with the phylactery, the sorcerer, fighter, paladin and scout are sitting in the mansion hoping Brazzemal goes away, and the poor cleric has been rendered unconscious and is Brazzemal's prisoner/hostage. Meanwhile, Brazzemal has detected where the monk fled with the phylactery and is considering whether he wants to risk a run-in with Tenser/Manzorian by teleporting in after them. He has assigned Vermirox and two other blue dragons to keep a guard on the cleric and the room, knowing that the spell will expire and the rest of the party must come out sooner or later. I'm not sure how this is all going to come out, but it will be interesting.
Dragons are a created creature. They come in a large number of configurations and power level. Here I'm mainly interested in ones that are large or larger.
Dragons have a number of major strengths, high AC, high saves, high hps, massive numbers of skill points, a phenomenal suite of physical attacks and a good breath weapon. Dragons also usually come with spells. Dragons face two major vulnerabilities. Range attacks and vulnerability to battlefield control spells. Dragons usually concentrate on one of two main combat types. Either the more common breath and melee version or the hit and run version.
I'll address hit and run dragons at the end of this. Lets start with breath and melee dragons. A dragon wins a fight by essentially forcing the players into a situation where they don't have enough actions (as in move and standard actions) to deal with the threats and damage that they are receiving and still effectively hurt the dragon enough to kill it. A dragon essentially wants to lay into the players with such damage so fast that they loose control of the flow of battle and are always on the defensive. The dragon only has a few actions in a round while the players have many. If all the players are hurting the dragon then it will die in only a few rounds – the dragon must force as many players as possible to take actions that don't hurt it every round if it wants to win.
So lets start with the dragons main manoeuvre and then go back and look at things it does to support this. The dragons main combat manoeuvre goes like this.
- The dragon is not engaged with any player character when its turn comes up.
- The dragon takes a move action and brings itself into contact with the players.
- It then uses its standard action to breath on them catching as many of them as possible in its breath weapon.
- On the dragons next round it does a full round action and uses all its physical attacks to lay into a PC. Preferably the most vulnerable PC.
It keeps up with the physical attacks until it starts its turn and there are no enemies in full attack range. - It then, hopefully, has gotten its breath weapon back so it starts from the beginning moving to a good location and breathing on as many PCs as possible.
When the dragon moves into contact it should try and put itself next to as many PCs as possible - especially vulnerable PCs. This will force weaker PCs to use their actions to try and disengage from the dragon. If they are doing that they have less actions to use healing comrades or attacking the dragon. The mere threat of the dragons attacks can be used to force PCs to waste actions. This is why it concentrates on vulnerable PCs. The Dragon wants the rogue using a withdraw action to get away – not helping with a flank attack, hence, the rogue should be convinced that if he is in contact with the dragon he will be the target of the dragon full round attack not the fighter. This simple sequence keeps the players doing things other then harming the dragon. It's breath weapon, hopefully, causes all the players to consider healing and also forces some of them to try and move away from the dangerous dragon. The massive damage potential of its full attack rapidly removes hps from the target and its mere threat causes PCs to take actions moving away. Every action a PC spends that does not harm the dragon is essentially a small win for the dragon. If the dragon can do enough damage fast enough the players moral will break and they will scatter and flee. At that point the dragon has won (until the PCs come back better prepared).
OK lets consider how the dragon supports this manoeuvre. First off dragons are ambush predators. The dragon would like to engage the PCs having had some preparation time before hand. The reason for this comes, pretty much, down to its spells and its vulnerabilities. Dragons have spells but, by and large, their spells really are not up to snuff compared to the CR of the encounter that is about to go off. This means that the dragon rarely has a spell that is better for it to use in combat then its breath weapon+move or its full round attack. Essentially the opportunity cost for dragons spell casting is too high for them to use their spells in combat in most cases. It has spells but its enemies have more casters (usually both an arcane and a divine caster) and they have more powerful spells (because their usually higher level casters then the dragon). What this means is that the dragon would generally like to use its spells as buffs before combat begins.
Now there are a couple of exceptions to this. One is that a dragon with a battlefield control spell that will actually work on the PCs (note that the low level of the spells means that PCs often have high saves vs. the dragons spells making them weaker in general) can be very effective. Also the dragon can end up in a situation where it is not able to make a full attack and yet does not have its breath weapon back from the last time it used it. In this unusual circumstance the dragon would like to modify its main manoeuvre so that it casts a spell on the players with a standard action and then it uses its move action to close with them.
However if the dragon is to use its spells as pre-combat buffs it needs to be warned of the PCs before combat begins, have enough time to cast its spells, and still be able to move and engage the PCs. Furthermore the dragon would like to initiate an ambush because the dragon has few good range abilities. It does not want the PCs seeing it coming. Also if the PCs know what they are up against they will take actions to buff themselves against the dragons various abilities. Usually they will cast energy resistance versus the type of breath weapon the dragon has (therefore things that allow the dragon to change its breath weapons energy type are really potent). A dragons lair should be set up to accommodate this. This is further helped by the dragons massive number of skill points. Dragons can get their hide and move silently skill into the stratosphere and should also have unbelievable spot and listen checks. At best a dragon would like to cast its buff spells on itself then move to a nearby cavern with a ledge that the PCs are in or approaching. The dragon initiates combat by hoping down from the ledge with a move action and then laying into the PCs with its breath weapon. There are a couple of issues here. The dragon has a time problem, it has cast buff spells, but it now needs to fight with the PCs soon or the buff spells will run out. On the other hand the dragon needs the players be distracted enough to give it time to cast these buff spells. Forcing players to 'take 20' looking for traps after the dragon has become aware of the party but before they become aware of it is a really good tactic. Taking 20 is usually thought of as taking a couple of minutes. This can be more then enough time for the dragon to cast all its buff spells, approach the party from an unexpected angle and initiate an attack.
Finally when considering buffs very strongly consider the danger posed to the dragon by battlefield control spells. Spells that stop the dragon from doing what it wants to do each round will nerf a dragon almost instantly. A dragon effected by slow is just about dead right there. One caught in solid fog probably won't even manage to get out of the fog before the players have substantially killed it. Now the dragons high saves means that its pretty good against most spells. Its invulnerable to paralysis and sleep as well – and that helps. Loss of manoeuvrability is the dragons biggest weakness. If at all possible a dragon should get freedom of movement cast on itself before combat starts. Note that dragons have use magic device as a class skill and lots of skill points. A smart dragon would keep some scrolls of this extremely potent spell in its hoard so it can cast this on itself before it heads off for the big fight.
I mentioned range attacks. A dragon can't compete with the party if it can't close with them. Its spells are usually not as good. Its breath weapon is fairly short range and can't be used every round. Basically a dragon really needs to get at the players. The dragon should choose the terrain for combat with this in mind. Players that can duck into bolt holes, heal up, and then come back out will kill it. Dragons rarely have much in the way of real healing and, with no pockets, they can't carry heal scrolls with them. Even if they could this type of combat benefits the PCs and not the dragon as the dragon can't overwhelm the PCs. If all the players take an attack action against the dragon for a couple of turns in a row the dragon will die. Even just taking really significant damage weakens the dragon. Players that think that 'the next attack will kill it'. Won't waste actions running away but will just keep laying into it until it dies.
OK finally the hit and run dragon. This dragon wants to close with the players, snatch one of their number, fly away and kill that PC. I use this style dragon much more rarely then the melee and breath dragon above. Its major problem is that this tactic is either too good or it is really not very good at all depending on the circumstances. If it works effectively then the player that is snatched has no chance all alone against a dragon and is effectively dead. That is usually not very much fun. If the PCs are of high enough level that this tactic is not a sure kill then the dragon is actually in trouble. It can't breath on more then one of them if they are all over the sky. In the air it can't get full attacks, most of the combat will probably be ranged. Basically nothing here works in the dragons favour if the PCs are competent in this environment. If you know your dragon will fight in this environment then careful picking of feats and spells will help the dragon out. If it can attack the players vulnerabilities or concentrate on the mage it might still manage to beat the PCs.
Dont be afraid to give your dragons magic items or make up special magic items for dragons to use.
I haven't actually done this, but it seems like giving a dragon a plethora of swift action spells would be good. As noted, the dragon really shouldn't be using targeted offensive spells (CL, saves too low vs. comparable party) and sometimes doesn't have enough time to buff.
Seems like a good plan to me but not at the expense of critical buff spells. The individual that benifits most from swift action spells are higher level sorcerers as they can afford to burn through spell slots at an insane pace. Problem is that dragons really don't have that many slots. A CR 15 blue is a 5th level sorcerer - in a world of 12th-14th level casters!. The real danger is not the dragon casting swift spells on te players but the players casting swift spells on the dragon (fortunatly good saves should help).
Alternatively, the dragon can turn the PCs propensity for massive buffage against them: a dragon's flight speed will usually be much greater than any PCs', so it can appear, breathe or charge once, then run away while the PCs' buffs wear off. The party presumably only has so many copies of resist energy or protection from energy prepared, but the dragon has an unlimited supply of breath weapon and melee attacks.The downside to this is if the party is better at hit-and-run than the dragon. One hopes that an intelligent dragon will figure this out and adjust accordingly.
Breathing on the party is possible here - don't just charge, thats mere bite damage. The problem is that the dragon has to approach the party and then pull back again. Essentially its spending two rounds to attack once. The players will attack it twice in that time. Consider also that the players are likely really good at healing but the dragon is generally bad at it. Your asking for trouble here - your dragon will have to flee to somewhere - potentially with players in hot pursuit where it must have healing available. Furthermore the dragon really should buff itself up with its rather meagre spell list - the players, being casters of more then twice its level, should have far more ability to redo buffs. The dragon gives away any form of surprise here as well. Beyond all that the dragon needs to get its hands on freedom of movement for every encounter otherwise the party is going to cast solid fog on it when it tries to leave and it will be trapped (no save no and SR on solid fog) and dispatched with ease by the players. No worse fate can I think of for a majestic dragon. I don't really see how this tactic can come out as a net gain for the dragon. Maybe with fly by attack and a ton of feats used to up its breath weapon? In some kind of cavernous lair maybe that would work but I think its a pretty special case dragon.
Finally, for the best dragon optimization you need Draconomicon. Metabreath feats and the spells that transform a dragon's breath weapon (some of which are now in Spell Compendium) are outstanding.
Oh yes, definitely - sweet, sweet, enhancements for the DMs precious pretty pet.
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Having just run the battle with Brazzamel, I thought I could contribute a bit: Grappling, especially with the Snatch feat.
Grappling does damage on a successful grapple check. That means, a Grappling bite does bite damage, and a grappling claw does claw damage. Snatch lets the dragon take a -20 penalty (it's not like it's grapple check is dangerously low) to not be considered grappled. And, a creature grappled in the dragon's mouth doesn't get a save vs the breath weapon.
Of course, spells like (or abilities that duplicate) Dimension Hop can get around that, but it's that rather than attacking or healing. Plus, next round anyone still grappled can be pinned with another successful grapple check.
If the party is flying (which is very likely) then using the tactic of breath and full attacks becomes minimized, right? Perhaps the flyby snatch and grapple, then breathe on them one at a time tactic would be effective against the group of flyers?
If the party is flying (which is very likely) then using the tactic of breath and full attacks becomes minimized, right? Perhaps the flyby snatch and grapple, then breathe on them one at a time tactic would be effective against the group of flyers?
Yeah - very difficult for a dragon to pull off this sort of thing if everyone is flying. With hover the Dragon coul move up and remain in position to hit a player but unless the player could also hover they would have no choice but to take AoO and continue on.
If the party is flying (which is very likely) then using the tactic of breath and full attacks becomes minimized, right? Perhaps the flyby snatch and grapple, then breathe on them one at a time tactic would be effective against the group of flyers?
Flying PCs and ones with really great manoeuvrability are going to be a really tough encounter for the dragon to handle. Its best abilities are minimized. It can't easily bring its awesome full attack suite to bear and its unlikely that it can catch more then one player in the breath weapon. Certainly in this case snatching PCs and trying to kill them is maybe the dragons best bet. However, unless it can catch on of the low hp players it stands a good chance of dying before it can kill the player it grabbed. Players will also often be able to heal their comrade with spells and such even at range.
That said - as far as I can tell size does not matter when determining who is hit by a ranged attack into a grapple. That means a dragon that does initiate a grapple grants itself some protection from range attacks because there is a 50% chance that they hit whoever is being grappled.
Still the chances of the dragon actually winning this fight under these circumstances seem woefully low. Maybe they can kill a character by snatching it and concentrating on it every round but the creature is likely to have taken such damage by the time that is finished that its probably going to die before it can kill a 2nd.
Another problem for the dragon here is that its really not that manoeuvrable in the air. Improving that means taking feats on just flying better and such feats don't otherwise help it win the fight. The problem here is the dragon could end up playing monkey in the middle to more manoeuvrable PCs or could simply be kept at a distance by ones that are quick enough to stay out of its range. Both situations are really bad for the dragon.
Now the ones the PCs dance with in the Kings of the Rift might be better at this sort of thing ... no not really as far as I can tell having just spent 15 minutes or so looking at these dragons.
All of these dragons would probably rather fight on the ground and use their breath weapons on multiple targets and their full attacks. Even the most powerful of them - that ancient red wyrm has access only to 7th level spells while the players have 9th level ones by this point. SRs are just too low to really deter 18th level characters. Fear will almost certainly have been negated by a spell. Now in some cases there are packs of dragons. If a pack of them exists one could have each dragon go after a different PC. That might be pretty effective really. Dragons are better in a grapple then the PCs in all likely hood but I have a feeling that the players of this level will simply have freedom of movement up - I certainly would. That spell makes it completely impossible for the dragons to snatch since they automatically fail their attempt to initiate a grapple.
I've not run this but my gut feeling is that the dragons at this level of play are going to have a hard time against the PCs. I'm not so fond of some of the feat choices either for most of these dragons. Quicken Breath Weapon is not a feat I think is very good for a dragon most of the time. Anything that results in a dragon not getting its breath weapon back for an extra 4 rounds pretty much means that it will get to use that breath weapon one less time in combat. For flying dragons particularly this is their one good damage dealing ability left if they can't snatch. Certainly something like flyby bites are just not going to really scare 18th level characters. A lot of these dragons have poor and clumsy manoeuvrability as well. I can barely see how they plan to catch the players.
The Tempest breath feat might be nice here - flying players knocked prone fall - its a long way down. Recover Breath Weapon is good - it could well result in the dragon being able to use its breath weapon an extra time in the combat. I'm sceptical about a lot of the spell choices for the dragons. I suspect there are usually better options. If nothing else these dragons are initiating combat with the PCs. They should be able to cast some buffs on themselves before closing.
There are some feats in Draconomicon that result in sticky breath weapons. These might be quite good. Forcing the players to deal with constant damage - especially the spell casting players might help a lot. There is a feat that allows the dragon to exchange the energy type of its breath weapon. I'd think that is a virtual must for the more powerful dragons here. There are energy resitance spells that absorb obscene sums of damage and if the players can get these up they make the dragons best weapon in this situation nothing more then a minor irritant.
I think the dragons have to concentrate on the mage if at all possible. Otherwise their going to go down to barrages of range touch attacks. This tactic has one other benefit as well - it might force the players to try and get melee types in front of the dragon allowing them to use their physical attacks.
Anyway I'd love to here from DMs who ran this thing. Were the dragons effective? Why or why not?
Having just run the battle with Brazzamel, I thought I could contribute a bit: Grappling, especially with the Snatch feat.
Grappling does damage on a successful grapple check. That means, a Grappling bite does bite damage, and a grappling claw does claw damage.
They can use a 'damage your opponent action' with a successful grapple check but that would just do non-lethal damage equal to ... hmm well I don't see what it is equal to in the SRD but I'm pretty sure its their size modifier. D3 for medium so what's that? d4 for large, d6 for huge, d8 for gargantuan and finally 2d6 for colossal. To an 18th level character this is just chump change they could take this damage all day. Though the dragon can do this move once per 6 points of its BAB so adding it all up might be notable.
A better option, I suspect, is for the dragon to use its natural weapons in the grapple. It gets a -4 to hit doing that (no grapple check required) but the damage is lethal and it sure has a lot of good natural weapons.
Snatch lets the dragon take a -20 penalty (it's not like it's grapple check is dangerously low) to not be considered grappled. And, a creature grappled in the dragon's mouth doesn't get a save vs the breath weapon.
Of course, spells like (or abilities that duplicate) Dimension Hop can get around that, but it's that rather than attacking or healing. Plus, next round anyone still grappled can be pinned with another successful grapple check.
I mentioned this already but I suspect most players will simply nerf this through the use of freedom of movement.
I've mentioned above that Dragons are, ideally, ambush predators. Looking over the dragons in Kings of the Rift makes me think this is ever more true the higher the level of the dragon and its opposition. For dragons actually singling out the PCs (as opposed to dragons that just happen upon the players during their assault on the Giants) I would strongly consider having the dragon try and jump the players from some convenient hiding place. This will allow the dragon to get up lots of buff spells before the combat starts and also mean that the players have to spend all sorts of time casting anti-dragon buff spells on themselves during the combat.
Oh and besides some of the feats I mention above - you might want to get combat reflexes on the dragon. If the dragon can get the players into its threat envelope it may be able to deal out a whole slew of attacks when the players try and leave.
They can use a 'damage your opponent action' with a successful grapple check but that would just do non-lethal damage equal to ... hmm well I don't see what it is equal to in the SRD but I'm pretty sure its their size modifier. D3 for medium so what's that? d4 for large, d6 for huge, d8 for gargantuan and finally 2d6 for colossal. To an 18th level character this is just chump change they could take this damage all day. Though the dragon can do this move once per 6 points of its BAB so adding it all up might be notable.
A better option, I suspect, is for the dragon to use its natural weapons in the grapple. It gets a -4 to hit doing that (no grapple check required) but the damage is lethal and it sure has a lot of good natural weapons.
I believe Ninjack was referring to the fact that a dragon with the Snatch feat essentially gains Improved Grab with its bite and claw attacks, which allows it automatically inflict damage on the grappled target as if it struck with the natural weapon used for the grapple on any round in which the dragon maintains its hold. Considering this is essentially automatic damage, and the dragon can still either take a full attack with all its other natural weapons or use its breath weapon with no save allowed (if grappling with the bite), that amounts to significant damage. The only problem is that it can leave the dragon vulnerable to other attackers, but as was stated earlier, the -20 grapple penalty to avoid being considered grappled probably doesn't hurt a dragon too much.
As for giving the dragon Combat Reflexes, it's actually not too impressive. Since it only allows a number of extra attacks equal to your dex bonus, and dragons rarely have a Dex score above 10 without being given the Elite ability adjustments, that translates to 0 extra AoO's. The only benefit it would get is being able to make its one AoO while flat-footed.
My group is actually pretty hip on the freedom of movement thing too, but if the dragons can catch them unaware and unprepared they might have a chance at this. In the Kings of the Rift, several have invisibility capabilities, which is in their favor tactically. The only reason I did have such a challenging fight with Illthane is that she was hiding and they didn't see her before she saw them. The group has now experienced how badly a dragon in melee can be damage wise, and will likely quickly take to the air should they encounter another one.
These are all great tips and I am enjoying reading them greatly. Thank you to everyone for your input, feel free to discuss further. Dragons seem to me to be one of the more complex encounters to run, so I am interested in all angles.
I believe Ninjack was referring to the fact that a dragon with the Snatch feat essentially gains Improved Grab with its bite and claw attacks, which allows it automatically inflict damage on the grappled target as if it struck with the natural weapon used for the grapple on any round in which the dragon maintains its hold. Considering this is essentially automatic damage, and the dragon can still either take a full attack with all its other natural weapons or use its breath weapon with no save allowed (if grappling with the bite), that amounts to significant damage. The only problem is that it can leave the dragon vulnerable to other attackers, but as was stated earlier, the -20 grapple penalty to avoid being considered grappled probably doesn't hurt a dragon too much.
The Freedom of Movement would negate the snatch (and the damage since you cannot possibly succeed on the grapple). This tactic my group has used with great success (having had fights with Ulgurstasta and Froghemoth already they know this tactic well). This was Jeremy's point I believe.
One solution to the dragon's crappy flight maneuverability is for the dragon to cast fly on itself. Yes, it slows down to 60', but now it's got perfect maneuverability.
And then there are other spells to increase flight speed -- haste being the obvious choice. I think there is also a feat or two that lets you fly faster; those would be decent choices for a high-CR dragon whether or not it's using fly.
They can use feats to get their fly speed and manoueverability up but, with the possible exception of hover, its a pretty sizable price to pay considering some of the other great dragon feats available.
Also, Flyby Attack is pretty much a must. The dragon can use it to make a drive-by breath weapon attack -- it allows a standard action, not just a melee attack action.
I can see the utility of this but its still not really optimal for the dragon. Flying by the PCs won't save it from their range attacks and the dragon sucks at range attacks. Hover allows the dragon to fly up to the PCs and stop - but it costs a move action. Big price to pay for a dragon. Fly by attack means the dragon will be able to use its breath weapon but what is it supposed to do then?
Regarding the metabreath feats, I disagree that Quicken Breath is useless. In fact, if you don't mind cheese, Quicken Breath can be combined with other metabreath feats + spells to give the dragon an obscenely powerful one-shot attack. As you don't expect the lesser dragons to last more than a couple rounds of combat, there is no reason not to do this... except that it's cheesy and annoying to the players, of course.So something like a quickened, empowered, clinging breath weapon modified via spells to use an alternate energy type. And that's just a very basic combination; I'm sure there are better (more min/max'd) ways to go.
My problem with the feat is it does not really add anything to the dragons breath weapon. It allows the dragon to use its breath weapon without using a standard action but it pays by not being able to use its breath weapon again. It could use the rest of this not quickened in anycase and it might even get it all back to use a second time with a little luck. That said I can see one way of using the feat. If it has hover the flying dragon can fly up to the PCs with a move action. Use its standard action to stop its forward movement and still be able to breath on the PCs. Still - the price tag of using the feat is just so high.
I can't find empowered except as the feat feat Empower Supernatural Ability in the Tome of Magic (a book I don't own) - I suspect it does not effect the length of time one has to wait for a dragon to breath. Clinging is just +1 to the wait time. I'd take recover breath weapon over quicken breath weapon and hope for a 1 on the length of time it takes to get my breath weapon back. With a little luck my dragon might be able to use its clinging breath weapon a second time.
My group is actually pretty hip on the freedom of movement thing too, but if the dragons can catch them unaware and unprepared they might have a chance at this.
Here I think your dragon fulfilled one of its main criteria for being a nasty encounter - it jumped the PCs who had no chance to prepare for what was coming at them. I'll note that in threads listing some of the creatures in Age of Worms that went down like chumps Ilthane often gets mentioned. So you avoided that.
I believe Ninjack was referring to the fact that a dragon with the Snatch feat essentially gains Improved Grab with its bite and claw attacks, which allows it automatically inflict damage on the grappled target as if it struck with the natural weapon used for the grapple on any round in which the dragon maintains its hold. Considering this is essentially automatic damage, and the dragon can still either take a full attack with all its other natural weapons or use its breath weapon with no save allowed (if grappling with the bite), that amounts to significant damage. The only problem is that it can leave the dragon vulnerable to other attackers, but as was stated earlier, the -20 grapple penalty to avoid being considered grappled probably doesn't hurt a dragon too much.
If your PCs are vulnerable to grapples I could see how this could be a pretty good tactic.
As for giving the dragon Combat Reflexes, it's actually not too impressive. Since it only allows a number of extra attacks equal to your dex bonus, and dragons rarely have a Dex score above 10 without being given the Elite ability adjustments, that translates to 0 extra AoO's. The only benefit it would get is being able to make its one AoO while flat-footed.
Yeah - your right. Just looked at the dex of all the dragons in Kings of the Rift and its 10s all around. Thats kind of rough - I can't see how the dragon can hold the PCs in place long enough for it to do much damage to them. The breath weapon alone is just not significant at this level.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Here I think your dragon fulfilled one of its main criteria for being a nasty encounter - it jumped the PCs who had no chance to prepare for what was coming at them. I'll note that in threads listing some of the creatures in Age of Worms that went down like chumps Ilthane often gets mentioned. So you avoided that.
I'm happy to say Ilthane was not a chump in my games. I had the party receive word of a dragon flying towards Diamond Lake when they were returning from the City of Greyhawk. They elected to teleport to Diamond Lake in case the dragon was attacking, in two groups. I managed to keep a poker face when they decided to teleport just outside the Whispering Cairn. To make it even more fun for me, half the party landed off target.
Good times :) They did win (thanks to the other half of the party coming in a few rounds later via a scroll), but it wasn't easy.
Here I think your dragon fulfilled one of its main criteria for being a nasty encounter - it jumped the PCs who had no chance to prepare for what was coming at them. I'll note that in threads listing some of the creatures in Age of Worms that went down like chumps Ilthane often gets mentioned. So you avoided that.I'm happy to say Ilthane was not a chump in my games. I had the party receive word of a dragon flying towards Diamond Lake when they were returning from the City of Greyhawk. They elected to teleport to Diamond Lake in case the dragon was attacking, in two groups. I managed to keep a poker face when they decided to teleport just outside the Whispering Cairn. To make it even more fun for me, half the party landed off target.
Good times :) They did win (thanks to the other half of the party coming in a few rounds later via a scroll), but it wasn't easy.
how did the rest of the party know to come?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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how did the rest of the party know to come?
Since they were supposed to meet at the entrance of the Whispering Cairn, and knew they had landed off target but still in the Cairn Hills(Knowledge:geography), it isn't a big stretch that they'd want to get to the rendezvous as quickly as possible. Being several miles away, it wasn't practical to go overland.
In fact, the plan discussed before they ever teleported was to just that (teleport again ASAP) if either group missed.
My problem with the feat [Quicken Breath Weapon] is it does not really add anything to the dragons breath weapon....No, but it does allow for some potentially nasty combos such as:
* with a grappled PC in your mouth, use quickened breath (no save! b/c grappled) + deal bite damage
* when in melee range, make a full attack + use quickened breath
* when in breath weapon range, use quickened breath then withdraw action (minimizes AOOs from the PCs), or use quickened breath then cast dimension door (assuming high enough CL)
I have a hard time seeing how a dragon would get into most of these situations without already having used its breath weapon unless it was forgoing the opportunity to breath hoping to set this combo up. A situation that a weaker dragon can't really afford. It can set up the withdrawal one easily but I don't understand why it would want to. The dragon wants to close - especially if it has just used a feat that means it won't be able to breath again for this combat. I mean really what else can it do but use physical attacks after this point? It has spells but their nowhere as good as the PCs spells.
= = = = =I looked at the list of Draconomicon feats on the Wizards list here and found some more that would be good for pumping up your dragon:
* Devastating Critical -- potentially kill someone with a crit
* Dire Charge -- full attack as part of a charge --> this is just brutal if the players don't expect it
* Metabreath Feats
-- Clinging
-- Enlarge
-- Extend Spreading Breath (convert your breath weapon into a spread effect that can be used at range)
-- Heighten
-- Lingering (becomes a cloud that lingers)
-- Maximize
-- Quicken
-- Recover
-- Shape (make the area of your breath weapon a cone or a line)
-- Split
-- Tempest (make your breath weapon strike with the force of a windstorm) --> great cinematic potential with this one, especially if the PCs foolishly stand near the edge of a cliff... say in someplace known for cliffs like, I dunno, the Rift Canyon....
* Large and In Charge -- prevent opponents from closing inside your reach --> a must for all big creatures that plan to melee
* Rend --> if you're going to melee, this helps maximize the damage you deal
I'm not arguing that their are not a lot of great feats. Clinging, and Rend are particular favourites of mine.
So again, if you don't mind cheese, your dragon could use something like a clinging, enlarged, extended spreading, heightened, lingering, maximized, tempest breath. And so what if it will take 1d4+15 rounds to recover (or whatever)? The dragon is a one-shot monster, at least for the purposes of Kings...
Note that a dragon with all these feats is going to have something to the tune of 21 hd – its not a one shot any more. In any case I agree with the cheese - part of my problem is that quicken does not do anything for the cheese - a different feat that actually adds to the cheese would probably be more effective - even on a one shot dragon. If my dragon is going to breath only once would it not be better to make that breath weapon attack more powerful instead of allowing my one shot dragon to bite or something as well? That seems to be what the choices come down too - add bite damage to the breath weapon or add tempest, clinging, heighten or maybe most spectacularly maximize. I particularly think a maximized, heightened, clinging breath weapon would be better for a one shot dragon then one with quicken and one can't have both maximize and quicken.
I think we are just going around in circles here, so I'll make one final point and then stop.
Unless you are planning a TPK, every dragon that fights your players' PCs is going to die. If not on the first encounter, then on a subsequent one.
Thus, as a DM, I'm not extremely upset if my dragon only gets off a single big breath weapon or a single full-round attack. I'd like the dragon to be optimized enough to present a credible threat to the PCs; but in the end, I'm secretly rooting for the PCs to win.
OK and this is a valid point. The OP was how to build and use combat effective dragons and I think some good points on that have been made in this regard.
Better that the DM is deciding to tone down his uber killer dragon then that he is unable to make one to challenge the players in the first place. In this regard in Kings of the Rift it is maybe a better idea to give a combo like maximize, heighten, clinging to the little dragons then to give the same combo to Brazzimal* - With that big red it could turn into an automatic kill that the players have little or no chance of beating. Not good - unless your a really evil DM of course.
* I don't have Brazzimal in front of me but he's a Very Old Red IIRC. With maximize, heighten and clinging his breath weapon should be 180 points of fire damage with a reflex DC of 40 save for half, add on another 90 points next round for the clinging. That should be just about impossible to live through for any PC hit by the breath weapon ... though with 18th level characters its possible that some of the d10 and d12 hps per hd characters could manage this with some good energy defenses up.
had a suggestion for dragons facing flying PCs - Dispel Magic. Use a targeted or area Dispel Magic to strip off that pesky Fly spell. It is a loooong way down without that Fly spell and the falling damage will probably incapacitate them.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor
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had a suggestion for dragons facing flying PCs - Dispel Magic. Use a targeted or area Dispel Magic to strip off that pesky Fly spell. It is a loooong way down without that Fly spell and the falling damage will probably incapacitate them.
Some problems with that, just from my experience -
1) Except for red dragons, caster levels for dragons just don't keep up with those of the party2) In an aerial battle field, you'll probably get only one or two party members in a dispel (due to dispersion across 3 dimensions). Tends to be an inefficient way of trading actions with the party. Dispelling breath works better
3) While it's definitely inconvenient to be dispelled when flying, you get 1-6 rounds of descent at 60 feet per round. Tends to be plenty of time to keep you from taking falling damage.
Some problems with that, just from my experience -
1) Except for red dragons, caster levels for dragons just don't keep up with those of the party
2) In an aerial battle field, you'll probably get only one or two party members in a dispel (due to dispersion across 3 dimensions). Tends to be an inefficient way of trading actions with the party. Dispelling breath works better
3) While it's definitely inconvenient to be dispelled when flying, you get 1-6 rounds of descent at 60 feet per round. Tends to be plenty of time to keep you from taking falling damage.
Also, once the whole party is flying around a lot of them are using magic items to do it and those are a major pain to dispel.
Umm - where do have PCs only fall at a rate of 60' per round? Last time I dealt with this we had a much higher number - though I think we worked it out at the actual rate of a fall.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor
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Umm - where do have PCs only fall at a rate of 60' per round? Last time I dealt with this we had a much higher number - though I think we worked it out at the actual rate of a fall.
When fly is dispelled, you get 1-6 rounds of 60 foot per round descent, as described under the fly spell. It explicitly says this happens whether the spell ends normally or is dispelled. As far as how fast you fall if you AREN'T protected by that, it's close to 600 feet in the first round.
When fly is dispelled, you get 1-6 rounds of 60 foot per round descent, as described under the fly spell. It explicitly says this happens whether the spell ends normally or is dispelled. As far as how fast you fall if you AREN'T protected by that, it's close to 600 feet in the first round.
Umm - where do have PCs only fall at a rate of 60' per round? Last time I dealt with this we had a much higher number - though I think we worked it out at the actual rate of a fall.
Ah - I was thinking there was some universal rule that would strangly put falling speed at 60' per round.
When fly is dispelled, you get 1-6 rounds of 60 foot per round descent, as described under the fly spell. It explicitly says this happens whether the spell ends normally or is dispelled. As far as how fast you fall if you AREN'T protected by that, it's close to 600 feet in the first round.
Umm - where do have PCs only fall at a rate of 60' per round? Last time I dealt with this we had a much higher number - though I think we worked it out at the actual rate of a fall.
Ah yes forgot about that little caveat. Antimagic field does not have the same slow falling effect though [snicker], but it is much higher level and there are probably much better options at that level.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor
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Ah yes forgot about that little caveat. Antimagic field does not have the same slow falling effect though [snicker], but it is much higher level and there are probably much better options at that level.
Dragons do fight shockingly well in antimagic, and are protected from those irritating orb spells. However, it pretty much needs to be a widen antimagic field to be useful - the Sudden Widen feat might come in handy. For a wicked combo, consider the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat, which allows the exclusion of one target (which could be the caster) from the area of the spell. Also known as the antimagic donut.
Someone a ways back mentioned in this thread that dragons would likely have a large horde of cash (pretty, shiny, metal coins - silver, gold, platinum - and heaps of glittering, shiny, light refracting gems and such). I should dare hope so! They then went on to say that a "smart" dragon might take chunks of that horde and "convert" (which I would take as "buy") some nifty magic items (since dragons can pretty much use any magic item that a humanoid could). However, as a DM I would be very careful about this. Dragons, as we all know, are very, very (need I reiterate, VERY) greedy and are loathe to part with even one tiny piece of their pile of goodies. After all, they have labored long and hard to build up this stash of glittery baubles ... a nice nest/bed to lay on and revel in!! Yes, these creatures likely have quite a stash of cash tucked away, deep and safe in some underground lair, that any sane character-type would convert to items of power ... but dragons do not think that way ... after all, they are already more ancient and powerful than any mere humanoid! In their way of thinking, they do not "need" the silly "crutches" of magic items that character-types rely on to survive! Dragons rely on thier ancient cunning, and their sheer size and strength to defeat those pesky character-types. And really, as any Paladin or Ranger worth his meddle knows, dragons are just greedy cowards at heart. Mwahahaha!!
Someone a ways back mentioned in this thread that dragons would likely have a large horde of cash (pretty, shiny, metal coins - silver, gold, platinum - and heaps of glittering, shiny, light refracting gems and such). I should dare hope so! They then went on to say that a "smart" dragon might take chunks of that horde and "convert" (which I would take as "buy") some nifty magic items (since dragons can pretty much use any magic item that a humanoid could). However, as a DM I would be very careful about this. Dragons, as we all know, are very, very (need I reiterate, VERY) greedy and are loathe to part with even one tiny piece of their pile of goodies. After all, they have labored long and hard to build up this stash of glittery baubles ... a nice nest/bed to lay on and revel in!! Yes, these creatures likely have quite a stash of cash tucked away, deep and safe in some underground lair, that any sane character-type would convert to items of power ... but dragons do not think that way ... after all, they are already more ancient and powerful than any mere humanoid! In their way of thinking, they do not "need" the silly "crutches" of magic items that character-types rely on to survive! Dragons rely on thier ancient cunning, and their sheer size and strength to defeat those pesky character-types. And really, as any Paladin or Ranger worth his meddle knows, dragons are just greedy cowards at heart. Mwahahaha!!
Mostly I agree with you on this. However I would allow dragons to use items that do happen to be lying around in their hoard. Beyond that I would have them manage to get access to freedom of movement. Its to critical for a dragon to have this. without it a 7th level mage with solid fog and some adventuring buddies should have no trouble killing the dragon.
So dragons are greedy but their also smart. On some level they know that they need to be able to get at their enemies if they want to tear them limb from limb. A dragon does not live to be hundreds of years old if it does not take appropreate steps to counter its biggest weaknesses. I think that it would manage to get its hands on this spell at some point by some means.
Oh, I very much agree with what you say there Jeremy. By all means, if a dragon has an item, it's going to use it (if it can). As you mention, they're smart, and wise, and they don't live to a ripe-old age of many hundreds of years by being stupid! My only point is that the nature of the beast is not to take all of its hard fought-for, glittery horde of cash, gems, and jewels and trade it in on magic items. However, if silly humanoids just happen to be dragging along some nifty items with them when they try to outsmart the wiley dragon, and they just happen to "leave" them behind upon their demise at the claws and teeth of the most crafty dragon, then I would certainly make sure that the dragon used those nifty magic items to its best defense and offense! Long live the mighty dragon!!
And if it can get hold of a Freedom of Movement spell, you betcha the dragon would use that to great effect!
In the end, and as far as I'm concerned, a dragon is the penultimate creature in the D&D universe of monsters!!
Oh, I very much agree with what you say there Jeremy. By all means, if a dragon has an item, it's going to use it (if it can). As you mention, they're smart, and wise, and they don't live to a ripe-old age of many hundreds of years by being stupid! My only point is that the nature of the beast is not to take all of its hard fought-for, glittery horde of cash, gems, and jewels and trade it in on magic items. However, if silly humanoids just happen to be dragging along some nifty items with them when they try to outsmart the wiley dragon, and they just happen to "leave" them behind upon their demise at the claws and teeth of the most crafty dragon, then I would certainly make sure that the dragon used those nifty magic items to its best defense and offense! Long live the mighty dragon!!
And if it can get hold of a Freedom of Movement spell, you betcha the dragon would use that to great effect!
In the end, and as far as I'm concerned, a dragon is the penultimate creature in the D&D universe of monsters!!
With the Tarrasque being the ultimate?
Thanks for the lively discussions, seems like I was running them right all along (at least with Illthane). Next up for us is spire of long shadows, so not a whole lotta dragon love there... but soon.