The term "ferrous" is a misnomer, yes, but we might imagine that whichever mages or adventurers first discovered the dragons gave it that name and it stuck. Perhaps it's a mistranslation from ancient Flan, whose language is imprecise in scientific matters.
It would appear that the chromium dragon has a swim speed but not the ability to breathe water, and the cobalt dragon has the ability to breathe water but no swim speed. Is this intentional?
maybe? :) perhaps they traded!
Is there any chance you might produce a set of statistics for the king of ferrous dragons, perhaps similar to the early 3.0 non-divine statistics that appear in Dragon 272 for Bahamut and Tiamat?
we would have, but only the stats for the regular dragons were desired.
I love your monster articles and I look forward to the chess monsters one coming in 358.
thanks. :) it'll be around in a few weeks...
Did the original article refer to the group of dragons as ferrous dragon? Since I'm something of a purist, the label bothers me. Of the metallic dragons included in the article, only the iron dragon is actually ferrous. (The steel dragon, which I've seen elswhere, would be the only other ferrous dragon.)Yes, the original article referred to them as "ferrous" IIRC. In the real world iron and nickel are the two iron-group elements, while steel is an alloy of iron and carbon. (This probably explains why the steel dragon can be LN/LG; it is a metallic dragon with traces of ferrous dragon ancestry.) If my geologist side is feeling particularly ornery, I'd be as miffed as you. In a parallel development, the five original metallic dragons are all named after the gold group of elements (gold, silver, copper) or alloys of these (bronze and brass being alloys of copper with other metals). The fanboy side of me, though, would simply just let the matter drop.
I'd never heard of an "iron group" before, so I did a Google search and came up with vandium, chromium, manganese, iron, cobolt and nickel, elements 23 through 28 (everthing sandwiched between titanium and copper). But what makes these the iron group? Note that this usage varies from the standard chemical element Group 8, the iron family, which includes iron and the other elements directly below it on the table: ruthenium, osmium, and the artificial and short-lived hassium. They're in the same group because their valence (or outer) shells each hold 4 electrons. Each of these other so-called iron group metals--vandium, chromium, manganese, cobolt and nickel--has its down vertical group.
The gold group apparently is Group 11, the copper family, and contains the artificial and short-lived element roentgenium.
I guess it would have sounded funny to have had a ruthenium dragon and an osmium dragon. I sure wouldn't have wanted to have gotten breathed on by the radioactive hassium dragon! :D
Is there any chance you might produce a set of statistics for the king of ferrous dragons, perhaps similar to the early 3.0 non-divine statistics that appear in Dragon 272 for Bahamut and Tiamat?we would have, but only the stats for the regular dragons were desired.
Desired by whom?
Did you invent the king of the ferrous dragons, or did he too appear in the original "Heavy Metal Dragons" article in Dragon 170?
I'd never heard of an "iron group" before, so I did a Google search and came up with vandium, chromium, manganese, iron, cobolt and nickel, elements 23 through 28 (everthing sandwiched between titanium and copper). But what makes these the iron group?
I guess it would have sounded funny to have had a ruthenium dragon and an osmium dragon. I sure wouldn't have wanted to have gotten breathed on by the radioactive hassium dragon! :D
If the non-scientists here can be patient with us and this little digression... According to my copy of Dana's Manual of Mineralogy, iron occurs in the native state in nature and forms two natural alloys with nickel, kamacite and taenite. Osmium and ruthenium belong to the platinum group of metals along with palladium, iridium and rhodium. So maybe those five other metals are the names of demigods and quasi-deities that serve in Bahamut's court. :D
If the non-scientists here can be patient with us and this little digression... According to my copy of Dana's Manual of Mineralogy, iron occurs in the native state in nature and forms two natural alloys with nickel, kamacite and taenite. Osmium and ruthenium belong to the platinum group of metals along with palladium, iridium and rhodium. So maybe those five other metals are the names of demigods and quasi-deities that serve in Bahamut's court. :DI'd never heard of an "iron group" before, so I did a Google search and came up with vandium, chromium, manganese, iron, cobolt and nickel, elements 23 through 28 (everthing sandwiched between titanium and copper). But what makes these the iron group?
I guess it would have sounded funny to have had a ruthenium dragon and an osmium dragon. I sure wouldn't have wanted to have gotten breathed on by the radioactive hassium dragon! :D
Apparently there are two, mutually-exclusive, uses of the term "group" in chemistry. This makes things very confusing. Does your book explain why it includes osmium and ruthenium in the "platinum group?" How old is the book anyway? I'm thinking that the series of 18 groups, each consisting of an element and the elements that sit in the column beneath it, might be a newer usage of the term as these groups appear to be based on the number of electrons in the valence shell. I think the concept of specifc shells of electrons is newer than I am, as I don't recall learning any such thing when I studied the sciences as a kid. Of course it's possible that they limited the information at that level to a general "electron shell" but I suspect that at that time they knew only that there was an electron shell and not multiple shells.
Desired by whom?
Did you invent the king of the ferrous dragons, or did he too appear in the original "Heavy Metal Dragons" article in Dragon 170?
yes, he was in #170, with stats.
when our proposal for the ferrous article was accepted, we asked if we should include stats for the Big G, but the response was No.
Desired by whom?
Did you invent the king of the ferrous dragons, or did he too appear in the original "Heavy Metal Dragons" article in Dragon 170?
yes, he was in #170, with stats.
when our proposal for the ferrous article was accepted, we asked if we should include stats for the Big G, but the response was No.
Desired by whom?By the editors.
Oh, ok. Thank you both. If it's ok to ask, Mike, why did you turn it down? Insufficient room?
Is there any chance, Boz, if it wouldn't violate any rules, that you and your co-author might covert the king of the ferrous dragons (if you haven't already) and post him here? I don't really see any other way that we might end up with him. Thanks! :-)
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Oh, ok. Thank you both. If it's ok to ask, Mike, why did you turn it down? Insufficient room?
It's okay to ask. The answer is I don't know for sure, because it was ultimately Jason's decision (so I should have said "By Jason" but c'est la vie). I'm guessing space had a lot to do with it, but also focus. The article was a piece about new dragons, not a new deity.
Oh, ok. Thank you both. If it's ok to ask, Mike, why did you turn it down? Insufficient room?It's okay to ask. The answer is I don't know for sure, because it was ultimately Jason's decision (so I should have said "By Jason" but c'est la vie). I'm guessing space had a lot to do with it, but also focus. The article was a piece about new dragons, not a new deity.
As I understood it, the king of the ferrous dragons (why didn't the original author give him a decent name?!) wasn't a deity like Bahamut and Tiamat. So he would have been another "new" dragon rather than a deity. I really would have loved to have seen him. The early 3rd Ed non-divine versions of Bahamut and Tiamat the Skip Williams has in Dragon 272 each had a "Challenge Level" of 25. If "Challenge Level" translates into CR, then that wasn't very impressive considering that a gold great wyrm has a CR of 27. It would be very cool to see a king of ferrous dragons with a CR of maybe 35.
As I understood it, the king of the ferrous dragons (why didn't the original author give him a decent name?!) wasn't a deity like Bahamut and Tiamat.
I suppose "Gruaglothor" has to mean something significant in Draconic. :)
It would be very cool to see a king of ferrous dragons with a CR of maybe 35.
He could be advanced with extra age categories (like what Scott Brocius and WotC's Mark Jindra did for Sardior's thanes), or add a few levels of dragon ascendant.
My mineralogy book, BTW, is a classic, but it's gone through several editions, and it does take into account valence electrons and that sort of stuff. Suffice it to say that Fe and Ni are indeed grouped together because of similar physical and chemical properties; Au, Ag, and Cu are likewise grouped together. Electrum does occur in nature (complete solid solution exists between pure Au and pure Ag), so that Myth Drannor creation account of gold and silver dragons magically merging into electrum dragons (though not genealogically related to the first electrum dragons) makes sense.
It would appear that the chromium dragon has a swim speed but not the ability to breathe water, and the cobalt dragon has the ability to breathe water but no swim speed. Is this intentional?
Good catch! Here's what probably led to this...
The chromium has neither water breathing nor a swim speed in the original Dragon #170 article. However, when updating it, we thought it made sense to have a swim speed since the white dragon had one and lived in similar terrain. Since the white didn't have water breathing, it didn't occur to me to add it to the chromium. That may have been an oversight. Of course, water breathing is definitely not essential for a creature to have a swim speed (think ducks, crocodiles, etc.)
Oddly, the cobalt has water breathing in the original article in Dragon #170, but no swim speed. Perhaps it was intended to hide below the surface of forest lakes and ponds as part of its ambush tactics?
It wouldn't hurt to add water breathing to the chromium (or drop its swim speed) if you are so inclined. For the cobalt, it is probably fine as is, since its mainly a land-dwelling dragon that might happen to venture on smaller bodies of water, and could rely on a Swim skill (and its high Str modifier) to get around.
As I understood it, the king of the ferrous dragons (why didn't the original author give him a decent name?!) wasn't a deity like Bahamut and Tiamat. So he would have been another "new" dragon rather than a deity. I really would have loved to have seen him. The early 3rd Ed non-divine versions of Bahamut and Tiamat the Skip Williams has in Dragon 272 each had a "Challenge Level" of 25. If "Challenge Level" translates into CR, then that wasn't very impressive considering that a gold great wyrm has a CR of 27. It would be very cool to see a king of ferrous dragons with a CR of maybe 35.
This actual makes sense within the current design philophy applied to other unique entities like demon lords and archdevils, which is to stat them out at their bare minum CR (one at which non-epic characters could face them as a final encounter), allowing DMs of higher-level campaigns to advance them as needed.
We're beginning work on an update to Gruaghlothor, and will probably stat him in a similar range for consistency. Note that Gruaghlothor is not a deity, so he's more akin to Demogorgon or Asmodeus than Bahamut or Tiamat.
We're beginning work on an update to Gruaghlothor, and will probably stat him in a similar range for consistency.
we are? neato. :)
As I understood it, the king of the ferrous dragons (why didn't the original author give him a decent name?!) wasn't a deity like Bahamut and Tiamat. So he would have been another "new" dragon rather than a deity. I really would have loved to have seen him. The early 3rd Ed non-divine versions of Bahamut and Tiamat the Skip Williams has in Dragon 272 each had a "Challenge Level" of 25. If "Challenge Level" translates into CR, then that wasn't very impressive considering that a gold great wyrm has a CR of 27. It would be very cool to see a king of ferrous dragons with a CR of maybe 35.This actual makes sense within the current design philophy applied to other unique entities like demon lords and archdevils, which is to stat them out at their bare minum CR (one at which non-epic characters could face them as a final encounter), allowing DMs of higher-level campaigns to advance them as needed.
We're beginning work on an update to Gruaghlothor, and will probably stat him in a similar range for consistency. Note that Gruaghlothor is not a deity, so he's more akin to Demogorgon or Asmodeus than Bahamut or Tiamat.
That's why I chose CR 35--the current advanced versions of Demogorgon and Orcus have then with CRs 33 and 32. Remember that a gold great wrym already has a CR of 27, so giving Gruaghlothor a base CR of 23 or 22 like Demogorgon and Orcus simply isn't going to cut it. Gruaghlothor should be powerful enough even in his base form so that a few gold great wyrms (EL 31 for three) couldn't just pop in and take him out on a lark. Also remember that Gruaghlothor probably isn't going to have aspects like Asmodeus in FC II (CR 27) so he should be substantially more powerful since characters would be fighting his true form.
By the way, I meant to ask in the last post which two types of dragon the cover of Dragon 356 depicts. I figure that the silver dragon is probably a chromium dragon, but what is the red-colored dragon? Is it just supposed to be a red dragon? The color seems a bit too red and not yellow enough to match the red dragon picture in the Monster Manual, but the horns and frill do look very much the same.
Definitely a red and silver dragon as those two species are mortal enemies. And, you can expect some dermal variations within one dragon species much as there is in humanity. The cover wasn't meant for the article I think.
Definitely a red and silver dragon as those two species are mortal enemies. And, you can expect some dermal variations within one dragon species much as there is in humanity. The cover wasn't meant for the article I think.
Since silver dragons "tarnish" with age, a silver dragon of the size depicted on the cover wouldn't actually look so silver, which is why I thought it was a chromium dragon, which does get more silver with age. Looking now at a depiction of a silver dragon in Draconomicon, however, I see that it does resemble the silver-colored dragon on the cover of Dragon 356.