Hi,
I'm having a little trouble making heads or tails of Arley's CR. Now I know that CR designation can be more of an 'art' than 'science', so maybe someone can show me the brush strokes.
According to the SRD, there are associated and unassociated classes. If the class is associated to the monster, then every extra level in the new class adds 1 to the CR. If the class is unassociated, then each new level adds 1/2 CR until the number of levels equals the number of HD of the base creature, at which point the CR increases by 1 afterward.
By either reckoning (Sorcerer either associated or unassociated) I can't come up with a CR of 12 for a Sor 8 Ogre Mage. If Sorcerer is associated, then the CR should be 16. If its unassociated, then it should be 13.5: 8 + 2.5 (first 5 levels) + 3 (next 3 levels of Sorcerer).
Unless the SRD should read "until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original CR". That would make a Sor 8 a CR 12. But then the problem is, the MM says that the favored class of the ogre mage is sorcerer. Surely the favored class would be an associated class, wouldn't it?
My head hurts...
Thanks to whomever can shed light on this.
Greg
That was my initial reaction when I saw Arley as well... To my mind your first calculation is correct - Arley should be CR 16.
Ok, cool. But then, if sorcerer is associated, shouldn't Arley be casting his innate sorcerer spells as a 17th level sorcerer? According to the MM (page 294) "the monster's levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability". And then goes on to explain a rakshasa picking up a level of sorcerer and casting it spells as 8th level not 7th.
Maybe that's what makes him CR 16?
Greg
Orge Mages don't cast spells as sorcerers. They have spell-like abilities but that's not the same thing. So they don't stack.
Ok, I see the difference. Under Rakshasa (for example) it does say "Spells:" but for Ogre Mage it says "Spell-like Abilities". So, Arley still casts as a 9th level sorcerer.
I agree the math is a bit sketchy, but the CR for Ogre Mages is pretty dicey regardless.
Fair enough. Do you have an opinion on whether it should be CR 13 or 16? (Assuming the CR of 8 for the base creature is accurate.)
Thanks,
Greg
Creative Director
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Of course... the problem gets worse when you take into account that the ogre mage is grossly over-CRd to begin with... I mean... CR 8 but only 37 hit ponits? That's only 3 more than the CR 3 deinonychus. And so on.
By a strict interpretation of the rules, four of Arley's sorcerer levels count as half a CR, and then they match his HD so they start counting as 1 for 1. Which would give him a CR of 14. We decided to go with 12 though since adding sorcerer levels to an already underpowered creature really doesn't help much even AFTER its levels go beyond its racial hit dice.
Is Arley tougher than an 8th level sorcerer? Absolutely. Is he tougher than a standard ogre mage? Yup. So it's obvious his CR had to be higher. We basically compared him to a lot of other monsters from the MM, using things like AC and hit points and average damage and saving throws and his spells and spell-like abilities and more or less ad hoc assigned him a CR 12 score. At AC 18 and 113 hp, his AC and hp are still a bit low for CR 12 (average there should be closer to 165 hp and AC 28), but the fact that he regenerates and has some pretty strong spell-like abilities and spell choices probably makes up for it. Still... he actually strikes me as a little weak even for CR 12.
Anyway, for the most part, following the standard suggestions for how to increase a monster's CR when you add Hit Dice or character levels still works. It's just when you start with something that's kinda not on target to begin with that it's best to do the compare & contrast with other, similar monsters. There is no secret mathmatic formula that works for all CRs, unfortunately.
Of course... the problem gets worse when you take into account that the ogre mage is grossly over-CRd to begin with... I mean... CR 8 but only 37 hit ponits? That's only 3 more than the CR 3 deinonychus. And so on.
This is kinda the feeling I had to begin with. I just finished a session that had a battle with an ogre mage, two night hags and two retrievers (Monte Cook's Demon God's Fane) for an average party level of 14, and the Ogre Mage was an non-issue. His cone of cold did a little bit of damage, right before he fell to a destruction spell. Of course he had no class levels, so he was much more underpowered than Arley.
Is Arley tougher than an 8th level sorcerer? Absolutely. Is he tougher than a standard ogre mage? Yup. So it's obvious his CR had to be higher. We basically compared him to a lot of other monsters from the MM, using things like AC and hit points and average damage and saving throws and his spells and spell-like abilities and more or less ad hoc assigned him a CR 12 score. At AC 18 and 113 hp, his AC and hp are still a bit low for CR 12 (average there should be closer to 165 hp and AC 28), but the fact that he regenerates and has some pretty strong spell-like abilities and spell choices probably makes up for it. Still... he actually strikes me as a little weak even for CR 12.
And this was the "art" I was referring to in my original post. Kinda like Bob Ross for D&D. (Although I hesitate to call a treant a "happy little tree" :)
Thanks for the insight, James. Based on this Arley will stay a CR 12 creature, for now. I plan on running the same 14th level party through MC soon, so I've been selectively bumping up encounters on the first 2 levels to make some of the encounters a little more challenging. I'm still not sure what I plan on doing with Arley, but for now, he'll stay at CR 12.
Thanks again,
Greg
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For an alternative (and, to me, far more compelling) take on the ogre mage, take a look at Mike Mearl's reinterpretation, which recasts the critter as a sneaky melee combatant. As an added bonus, enjoy the Monster Manual 1st edition art!
For an alternative (and, to me, far more compelling) take on the ogre mage, take a look at Mike Mearl's reinterpretation, which recasts the critter as a sneaky melee combatant. As an added bonus, enjoy the Monster Manual 1st edition art!
Thanks. I have seen that, and as well, there are a couple of "re-invented" Arley's using that ogre mage here.
One of my big problems, though, is that I don't have the Spell Compendium, so I don't know the details of Swift Invisibility.
Still not sure how I'm going to go with this one.
Greg
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Swift Invisibility can be cast as a,.. um, well, swift action - but it only lasts a single round. Thus, the ogre mage can suddenly turn invisible and move himself to some inconvenient position, getting snaek attacks and such. Or, if hard-pressed, he can turn invisible in his enemies' turn! That one could be a life-saver.
I ran the first level of MC last week. As I only had 3 PCs (Drow Wizard 12, Minotaur Fighter 6 and human Rogue 7 Shadowdancer 7) I decided to start them at 14th level (in addition they do not have a healer). I used Arley when they insisted on splitting up all the time and tossing around full plates in order to jump over the water pool with the color chalice. The Wizard stayed back to loot some bodies and the Shadowdancer scouted into the Great Hall. So I decided that Arley will fly to the Wizard invisible and mangle the Wizard with his Greatsword, the surpriseround and one fullround later, the Wizard was at 0hp, trying and failing to cast Teleport defensively, thus dropping unconcious. His luck was the Shadow which was left to guard the wizard, so Arley had to take care of it. But when the two other PCs rounded up on him, he was done for quickly. So CR 12 is really ok, if not too high. Good thing: they stayed together hence on :-)
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Swift Invisibility can be cast as a,.. um, well, swift action - but it only lasts a single round... Or, if hard-pressed, he can turn invisible in his enemies' turn! That one could be a life-saver.
Actually a Swift action may only be used on your turn. If it was an Immediate action you could do it anytime, but it is merely Swift.
When my PC's faced Arly it was a joke. They caught managed to sneak up on him while working, though he had enough time to take on his gnome disguise. When they ran into the bodaks he struck at them but he got mauled by the Wizard's pet Dragon effigy.
I like Mike Mearl's new Ogre Mage at CR 5.