|
So, the heroes BARELY defeated the Mother of All, but they do it. Good, glad to have that over with. Then, I review the next section and I immediately think to myself, "What's the point?" Really.
So, okay, the Captain gets to roll about three dozen Profession (Sailor) checks to see if (A) they can "stay on course" despite the fact that the book gives no suggestions as to what might happen should they actually go off course and, (B) is further made useless when the adventure has them crash NO MATTER WHAT they roll...despite the fact that they could have gone "way" of course with the previous plethora of dice rolls.
And. As for drama during the storm, the players saying, "I tie myself to the deck," rightly kills any need for dice rolls in the storm.
And. Then, as per written, the ship crashses...no matter what the Sailing checks might come up...and they make yet another useless roll to see if they "fall prone REF Save" despite the fact that there's absolutly no dramatic reason for them to make the roll.
So basically the last encoutner is a call for dozens of dice rolls, with little or no reason for them, only to force them to CRASH on the island no matter what they rolled in the first place.
So basically I told the players, "Okay, a few days after getting fished out of the sargossa flotsam, yet another storm hits the Wyvern, this one a powerful, near hurrican monster that tosses the storm something fierce. As the ship gets tossed and rolled about there's the sound of splintering wood and the ship halts to a jarring stop, sending all flying about the Wyvern. As you all stand up and collect yourselves you can hear the Captain bellowing orders to command the crew to get the ship free of some rocks. Suddenly, there's a roar off the port side of the slanted ship, that's obviously not the storm...Seems the Wyvern needs some heroes to defend her once again!"
One hour of useless dice rolling boiled down to a two-minute description leading the heroes to the next *dramatic* moment.
PAIZO, I am really sorry for sounding harsh, but you can do better then this! I really hope you guy reduce the call for USELESS rolls in your PATHFINDER books. Rolling the dice should be dramatic. Not because "We don't have a 'DC listing' on the page".
(Again, sorry for the rant, just really annoyed me.)
Each DM has a certain style. The die rolls described in the adventure will let most any DM create the feeling of a storm. Making the rolls meaningless in game terms does not mean they players don't feel the impact.
Of course, some DMs (myself included) use other storytelling methods, but the one described is basic, simple and works. DMs who feel they can do better can do so on their own.
You could still have them roll dice and crash and having some point to it. For instance they will likely try to salvage the ship later on. So if they do well on the rolls in the storm it could be presumed that the ship ran aground on a reef with less damage than it would have otherwise sustainted. Thus, the salvaging of the ship could be much easier than if they do poorly.
Yeah I think that section was for PCs who try to captain/crew the Sea Wyvern themselves. If they're not, and Amlelia or whatever NPC is captaining the ship, then it's pointless. It might make a difference of a few days in terms of how long it takes to get to the inevitable crash, but yeah you can pretty well skip over that whole bit if the PCs are just passengers and not crew.
So basically the last encoutner is a call for dozens of dice rolls, with little or no reason for them, only to force them to CRASH on the island no matter what they rolled in the first place.
I agree. It's less of an Adventure Path, and more of an Adventure Railroad.
And I understand all of the reasons for it: not enough space in the magazine to stray too far off the "path," etc., etc. But it still strikes me as kind of lame.
So basically the last encoutner is a call for dozens of dice rolls, with little or no reason for them, only to force them to CRASH on the island no matter what they rolled in the first place.
So basically I told the players, "Okay, a few days after getting fished out of the sargossa flotsam, yet another storm hits the Wyvern...."
One hour of useless dice rolling boiled down to a two-minute description leading the heroes to the next *dramatic* moment.
I plan to run this in the same way. The only thing less interesting than dialog between two NPCs is the DM rolling against himself.
Creative Director
|
Yeah; the campaign still works perfectly well if your PCs manage to avoid crashing and sail around "Here there be Monsters" into "Tides of Dread." You can certianly salavge elements of "Monsters" to create new mini-quests for "Tides," in any case.
But as for Savage Tide being a "railroad," well OF COURSE it's a railroad. ALL adventures are railroads. If they're not... they're actually sourcebooks or campaign settings. Once there's a plot, the adventure has to focus on things related to it. We try to provide enough details around that plot so that if your PCs go off the rails there's still enough info to keep the campaign going.
Also, keep in mind that most players WANT to be railroaded. They just don't want to know that they're being railroaded. The reason we included all the mechanics for the crash at the end of "Sea Wyvern's Wake" is to give the PCs the feeling that they at least have a chance. And frankly, they DO have a chance. I wouldn't put it past some forward-thinking character to have really high ranks in all the right skills and thus be able to avoid the reef and sail around to safety. Likewise, if the PCs pool their money and get a lyre of building or a horn of the tritons in Sasserine before they leave port... they can pretty much avoid the fourth adventure as well.
No adventure can anticipae every PC action. The best they can do is give you enough information so that you can act on their actions in an informed decision. Adhering to a plot (the railroad in question) is the best way to present the information in a timely and digestable manner.
I agree that a lot of adventures are designed as a railroad and that in the case of an ongoing campaign like an adventure path it's necessary to a point.
But just because it's designed that way doesn't mean it has to be run like that. My players often do things that don't derail the plot. They build a new railway line and redesign the train too.
To me that is part of the fun.
Almost as much fun as when one of the 'heroes' fumbles that all important roll. What can you do when they meet an important NPC with some vital information and they roll a 1 for Diplomacy?
|
further made useless when the adventure has them crash NO MATTER WHAT they roll...despite the fact that they could have gone "way" of course with the previous plethora of dice rolls.
...and the players are aware of this?
Say I'm maneuvering a ship in a storm and roll really low, or the NPC captain can't maintain control as well as the last time, and people are slamming around in the galley and deck hands are washing overboard.
It sure does seem a lot more unfortunate and a lot less predetermined if the ship slams into a reef while running off course, or while the ship is rolling around and I'm falling all over the place.
As for drama during the storm, the players saying, "I tie myself to the deck," rightly kills any need for dice rolls in the storm.
I think this action would create the perfect opportunity to see what happens when people tether themselves to an exposed section of ship during a raging storm.
I've got images of what happens to a balloon when you give it some slack and open a car window. bumpida bumpida bumpida pop!
Maybe the PC's never had dinner with anyone, and never hung out at the beach for a few days with their shipmates. In that case there's no reason to run around assisting anyone, and it *would* be a pretty pedestrian set of rolls.
Then, as per written, the ship crashses...no matter what the Sailing checks might come up...and they make yet another useless roll to see if they "fall prone REF Save" despite the fact that there's absolutly no dramatic reason for them to make the roll.
Say a PC tied himself to the port side of the ship and failed his ref save. I'm assuming they tethered themselves somehow, since I don't know what type of Rope Use check would be required to really securely bind yourself to the deck of a ship in the midst of a storm.
Twisting off the side of a ship by a few feet of rope could be an interesting way to begin a battle with a giant eel.
...or maybe players who fall prone also slide across (down, actually) the slippery deck and need to make checks to catch themselves from falling overboard. A pretty interesting encounter, trying to get back on board before the captain does some boring rolls and sets the ship free, while you're engaged in combat, in five feet of water.
So basically I told the players...
That's another way to do it. :) I think the die-rolling version isn't that bad at all, though, and plan to use it.
While there's a comment below which describes the two worst things in RP as long NPC dialogues and the DM rolling against himself, I'd like to add "Narrative which gives me no illusion of control, or luck, or randomness" as another annoyance.
Ya know, "Ahh yeah, just HAPPENED to slam into a reef, eh? Conveeeenient. I bet it's damaged beyond repair, too!"
The art of make-belief.
The players don't know it's supposed to happen this way...
Do the adventure at sea, have some fun, roll the dice where it says to roll them, and try to end you session as they crash on the island.
Look surprised when your roll indicates that they crash. Then end the session and tell them you'll think of something for the next game (because if the rolls indicate that there's a crash, then there's a crash...)
You have to make it look as if the crash was unexpected and the whole adventure across the island is some sort of side-quest. Believe me, your players won't know what hit them.
Ultradan
Im so sick of the term "railroad". I agree with James on this. All adventure modules are plotted to follow a specific story.
If you feel its railroading, dont play any modules at all.
Pick up your dice and create a random series of events on the fly following what your players do.
Its called an "Adventure PATH" after all.
As for the useless rolls, you can omit anything as a DM.
You can just describe the events leading up to the ship crashing and have your players take it from there. I still dont see any problem here.
The rolls are there to spice things up for the players IMO. One scene along the journey is different from the other.
Despite exagerations in the initial post, I too feel this was the weakest part of the AP, so far. I ended up spending about 30 seconds on an ad hoc description of the trip and crash, rather than a couple minutes rolling dice.
But hardly a big yank, overall.
