I was talking the other day with a friend of mine. I'm preparing to run a solo game for him, but with an ocassional paladin DMNPC. Now, he likes paladins in concept and has played them quite a few times. However, they just seem... a little underpowered. In looking over them, I tend to agree. The have to put some effort into raising Charisma in addition to Strength and Constitution, like all martial classes tend to do. The mount is far less useful than it first appears, and the remove disease ability isn't so hot either.
The major problem, we realized, was that paladins are a bit feat starved. There are awesome Divine Feats out there for them, but considering that many of them have prerequisites (Power Attack for Divine Might, for example). However, they can't hardly get more than two of the things because of their lack of bonus feats!
So, the revamp we thought about was to ditch remove disease as a special feature and just add it to their spell list. The mount could be toned down or scrapped all together.
At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the paladin would recieve one bonus feat, which can be any Divine feat.
Paladins are already pretty good defensive warriors, but the raw (and RAW) mechanics are just lackluster- they don't have enough "oomph!" to them.
Now I see the paladin class as being more "complete," and more attractive to players at higher levels, encouraging them to stick with the class rather than branching to a PrC. Combined with Lay on Hands and Divine Grace, as well as a little CLW/CMW here and there, as well as innate armor proficiencies, paladins make good defensive warriors who can outlast and barbarian or fighter in "tanking." However, a limited but practical number of times per day, the paladin can pull out some special abilities for a little "pizzaz," either increasing their offense or further augmenting their defense in a critical moment (which enhances the lore/vision that most ((non-paladin hating)) people seem to have already).
So, whatcha think? Is this balanced?
It seems balanced to me. Remove Disease never was that useful. Most adventuring parties don't encounter disease that often.
It seems balanced to me. Remove Disease never was that useful. Most adventuring parties don't encounter disease that often.
I agree scrap the mount and remove disease. I’d rather have a holy warrior that can go toe to toe than a mounted fighter.
Fizz
So, the revamp we thought about was to ditch remove disease as a special feature and just add it to their spell list.
Wait a minute, that can't be right...what?! Remove disease isn't a paladin spell! Who made that decision?!
Anyway, your alternate paladin appears to be balanced. I'd caution you to err on the side of underpowered, because it's easier to retroactively give a PC extra abilities after you realize that the class isn't quite balanced, rather than vice versa.
Dropping remove disease for bonus Divine feats at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th would be enough, IMO.
Saern: nice job with the revamp.
My group loves the Palidan...for a few levels. Then they play a PrC or want to change characters. The main issue seems to be that nearly every other class keeps getting *something* cool but Palidans get nearly nothing newish and spiffy later in levels. Your build may solve that issue and I'd love to hear how it plays out.
Thanks for the positive feedback! Four bonus feats in place of the mount and remove disease (they don't get it as a spell because they have it as a spell-like ability; it would be redundant) seems like a lot, especially considering that those abilities aren't considered so great anyway, but when you look at how much more effective a fighter or even barbarian is at melee combat than a paladin... it's kind of discouraging. As far as offense goes, without the smite, a paladin is just a fighter without bonus feats.
Unfortunately, considering the unusual "party" composition of a solo game, it may not be the most accurate playtest in the world (the player will have a gestalt fighter/rogue). I hope to DM AoW sometime in the future with a paladin in the party (more likely with this revamp) as the front-liner, and that should give a better play test result. When I get a new group and we get around to launching the campaign (who knows when that will be), I'll try and remember to post here and tell you all how it went (don't count on my memory being that good, though).
I like it a lot. Too bad "Dragon" has followed the Dodo; that would have been a great "class acts" article for alternate class features.
Saern: nice job with the revamp.
I will have to second that comment. The only thing I can think of though is rather than completely scrap the mount and the remove disease abilities is set them as Divine Feats, that way if someone ever felt like taking them they still could. They more than likely won’t but it’s still an option. Who knows campaign goes right instead of ending up on a horse the Paladin gets a griffon or a pegasus, or something else that is just as “cool”. Then they could take the mount ability for that creature. Yeah, for making a feat resemble the campaign. Same with the remove disease. Not one used a whole lot. Why because don’t encounter a whole lot of disease at lower levels. Higher levels when you start encountering more you usually have two things going for you where the Paladin doesn’t need the ability. One better saving throws, completely resist the darn thing in the first place, Two clerics now have the spells needed to get rid of’em in case you still catch it (shouldn’t have slept with that barmaid).
Personally I have for a long time thought about taking the Paladin away as starting PC. Instead make it a Prestige Class. Doing it this way would be great. Start out as the fighter then Prestige into Paladin. Reqs being: Must be Lawful, Follows and accepted by a church (similar to being knighted), Lastly have 4(+?) ranks in Knowledge Religion.
If you do it the prestige class way, as a fighter they can pick up all of the needed non-divine prereqs for their divine feats. Then make it like you were offering and every couple (relative) as a Paladin they get a Divine Feat (player meeting DM approval’s choice) as their ability for that level
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The feats seem to be a fair trade for the remove disease ability, but I propose one other addition: the Mettle ability.
Everyone and their brother gets Evasion at some point (rogues, monks, rangers, numerous PrCs, etc.) but only the Hexblade and a handful of PrCs get Mettle. Mettle would add to the whole 'champion' aspect of the paladin archetype, imo, and I think it would serve to replace the mount (though I would award Mettle around level 8 or 9 instead of 5).
What does everyone else think?
P.S.: For those unfamiliar with the ability, it's basically the same thing as Evasion, but it applies to Fortitude and Will saves instead of Reflex.
Looks nice. But before we forgo the mount completely, don't forget about about the alternate mounts list in the DMG. A griffon is available at 6th level...
Looks nice. But before we forgo the mount completely, don't forget about about the alternate mounts list in the DMG. A griffon is available at 6th level...
Mettle sounds good. I think the Sohei from OA has that too.
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Looks nice. But before we forgo the mount completely, don't forget about about the alternate mounts list in the DMG. A griffon is available at 6th level...
I'm not saying the MOUNT is useless, it's that the DM (me) does not want to have to RUN MOUNTED COMBAT.
See? You understand now. :D
(For the record, though, the basic mount is pretty useless.)
I tried to run mounted combat heavy in my current campaign. My players all ended up going dragoon on me (dismoutning to fight). C'mon, Gnolls on hyneas!!! How is running a lance through that not fun?!?!?
The feats seem to be a fair trade for the remove disease ability, but I propose one other addition: the Mettle ability.
Everyone and their brother gets Evasion at some point (rogues, monks, rangers, numerous PrCs, etc.) but only the Hexblade and a handful of PrCs get Mettle. Mettle would add to the whole 'champion' aspect of the paladin archetype, imo, and I think it would serve to replace the mount (though I would award Mettle around level 8 or 9 instead of 5).
What does everyone else think?
P.S.: For those unfamiliar with the ability, it's basically the same thing as Evasion, but it applies to Fortitude and Will saves instead of Reflex.
Mettle is an interesting option, but they do already get a save bonus from Divine Grace. Also, most of the paladin's abilities are already pretty defensively oriented; another one doesn't seem to fix the problem. Certainly, someone could take Divine Shield and the like (and probably will) with the bonus feats, which is defensive as well, but you could just as easily take Divine Might and Sacred Vengeance. Even with the Divine Shield route, that's an active ability you have to choose to turn on, which is more fun than yet another passive class feature.
Now, as for the mount becoming a feat... this I like! Perhaps something akin to the Improved Familiar feat, but the prerequisite would be Paladin level 5?
Eh, now that I think about it, it's substantially different from Improved Familiar. Any thoughts on the mechanics here? I also like the idea proposed above, where the paladin already has a mount, perhaps even a griffon or pegasus, and gets the feat to "buff" the mount.
But how to make it work...?
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Personally, I am a fan of the 'Plug-and-Play Paladin':
Basically, paladins can be of any non-evil alignment, and the player may choose concept/alignment-themed special class features comparable in power to those presented in the PHB.
Example:
Daniel Lovoth, my paladin character, took Favored Enemy (evil outsiders) in place of Lay On Hands, the Firebrand feat (from Dragon Magazine) instead of Remove Disease, and Weapon of Celestia (from Dragon Magazine) in place of a Special Mount.
For the record, though, the basic mount is pretty useless.
What about the "Sword of Cilestia" variant in Dragon a while back.
imo that seemed ok to me.
my 2 cents
This sounds like a good idea to make a paladin more useful over all. I would only suggest considering adding maybe a few martial feats to the bonus feat list, like weapon focus, cleave, or tower shield proficiency.
This sounds like a good idea to make a paladin more useful over all. I would only suggest considering adding maybe a few martial feats to the bonus feat list, like weapon focus, cleave, or tower shield proficiency.
Obviously anyone can pick this adaptation up and use it in their own games however they want, but I consciously chose to leave them out. It's a good idea... but it gets into areas that are just too broad. If another feat comes out that seems as applicable in another book, then I have to update my list. There will be questions and perhaps even arugments about what is and isn't appropriate. This way, any Divine Feat is a go, simple as that.
Also, the paladin is a divine warrior. I really wanted to play up the magical element of the paladin. So, focusing this down to just Divine Feats works a lot better for me, personally.
but if you want to do this it should only be offered as a variant such as the battle sorcerer.
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There was a revamp of the Paladin established on the WOTC boards awhile back. Though it shows some power creep (making the paladin a better spellcaster, for one; and some overpowered Smite-based feats), it showed some thoughtfulness with regards to three "Style Trees" (Offense, Defense, & Mounted Knight), enhanced use of Remove Disease & Lay on Hands wherein "healing points" can be used to remove other afflictions (ability damage, negative levels, etc) as seen in the Dragon Shaman's healing powers, alternative auras (like the marshal, dragon shaman, or divine mind) and an interesting concept of changing the quantity of Smite Evil from "per day" to "per encounter."
I certainly need to sit down and go over it with a fine-toothed comb for balance, but I have to give them credit for their thoughts-- with more recent classes and mechanics developed since the Paladin's inception, a lot of their ideas make sense.
I apologize for no longer having the link, but I can't imagine it would be impossible to find (Revised Paladin is the title, I believe).