I've got another brain teaser for the D&D rules masters.
In game the other night we came upon a situation where the fighter could hardly hit this big dragon cuz the dragon had a high AC. (I'd perhaps made this particlar dragon a little TOO tough.) Anyways the fighter decided since he could only hit on a 20, thathe would power attack for all. I thought thats fine. Then he said I guess there's nothing stopping me from combat expertising for all as well.
He seemed to think that he could power attack foir his full base of 9 and combat experise for 5. I told him that he can power attack and combat expertise at the same time but couldn't exceed his base attack meaning he could say power attack for 5 and combat expertise for 4 The total being 9 which equals his base attack. He thought that since it doesn't mention in the rules that they can't be combined he could exceed his base attack. Power attack for 9 combat expertise for 4 and take a -14 penalty on attacks. I eventually just made a ruling but still didn't feel good about it, mainly because he's a good friend and knows D&D very well and I couldn't find any rules to clarify that he was right or I was right. I was hoping to clarify this before we play again.
Any thoughts???
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There aren't any OFFICIAL rules on this that I'm aware of, but your ruling seems reasonable. In my games, I take the rules verbatim and say that you can subtract up to your BAB for EACH feat. So, a fighter with BAB 9 could put 9 points in Power Attack AND 5 in Expertise if he wished, but would take a -14 to hit.
Interesting catch, Jay. I automaticly assumed that you couldn't exceed you BAB using your reasoning (e.g. a 9 BAB had to be split up between P.A. and C.E.), but as Fate pointed out, I might have assumed incorrectly.
See I tried to argue that it doesn't make sense to use power attack and combat expertise at the same time. These arguments never go well. For some reason alot of players only think about the rules they don't think about what the rules symbolize in the game. sure the rules don't say you can't power attack and combat expertise at the same time. But think about it. I'm going to recklessly put everything I can into hitting this guy as hard as possible but also carefully defend myself.
However, I think its interesting that there's no clear rule about whether you can use both at the same time or whether you can power attack for full and combat expertise for full. Its just weird. Maaybe James or one of the paizo editors will see this and give us a semi-official ruling.
I personally think that you should be able to use both of the feats at the same time but, together you shouldn't be able to exceed your BAB. So in this example he would be able to power attack for +4 and combat epertise for +5 with his total +9 BAB divded.
I think if you are going with the idea you can't power attack for more damage while your using combat expertise to dodge things, then could you use Dodge as well? Or is that different since that is only one person???
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But think about it. I'm going to recklessly put everything I can into hitting this guy as hard as possible but also carefully defend myself.
Using Power Attack on its own has no impact on your AC, so it does not reflect a necessarily "reckless" attack, simply a strong, forceful strike. You should not assume that such a strike "over-extends" the character's normal reach or any such thing because, if it did, it would lower AC, provoke an AoO, or something along those lines.
The character using both Combat Expertise AND Power Attack in the same round is focusing on defense, protecting himself from as many blows as possible and then, when he sees an opening, takes a strong, telegraphed swing at an exposed area and hopes he hits while quickly bringing his weapon back to defend himself.
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But think about it. I'm going to recklessly put everything I can into hitting this guy as hard as possible but also carefully defend myself.Using Power Attack on its own has no impact on your AC, so it does not reflect a necessarily "reckless" attack, simply a strong, forceful strike. You should not assume that such a strike "over-extends" the character's normal reach or any such thing because, if it did, it would lower AC, provoke an AoO, or something along those lines.
The character using both Combat Expertise AND Power Attack in the same round is focusing on defense, protecting himself from as many blows as possible and then, when he sees an opening, takes a strong, telegraphed swing at an exposed area and hopes he hits while quickly bringing his weapon back to defend himself.
Agreed. Power attack is more about exploiting a weakness in your enemy and using your weapon to its full effect. Hence(IMO) the loss of BAB means you are studying your enemy carefully and when you do strike that foe at the last minute you're able to put everything you got into that weak link. Combat expertise, even though is a dodge bonus, really just means you are noticing how your enemy is fighting and allowing you a chance to avoid the hit.
Per the RAW, a character with BAB 9 can indeed use Power Attack for -9 and also Combat Expertise for 5, to give a total -14 on attack rolls.
It is entirely reasonable for the DM to disallow the combination of these feats, or to cap the total penalty at the character's BAB (since that the 'skill' part of the attack bonus that can be traded away, where the Str and magic parts can't).
In reality, combining these two is only really worthwhile in the very unusual case where the character basically needs a 20 to hit anyway, and he has paid 2 feats for the priviledge of doing so, so what's the harm in allowing that tactic in those few odd cases? It's not like the character's going to be doing terribly well - he has a 5% chance of scoring a hit, and only a 0.25% chance of a critical. The rest of the time, he scores no damage anyway, so -9 of that penalty is just wasted.
Xcept when his oppponent has a really really low AC. Like an Ooze.
When your opponent has an AC of 1, it doesn't hurt that much to have only a -3 to hit; it's still a piece of cake. And you'll really need the extra damage.
Beyond that, indeed, it's not the most useful tactic, but I wouldn't disallow it. If the character wants to fight like that; fine by me... :)
Per the RAW, a character with BAB 9 can indeed use Power Attack for -9 and also Combat Expertise for 5, to give a total -14 on attack rolls.
It is entirely reasonable for the DM to disallow the combination of these feats, or to cap the total penalty at the character's BAB (since that the 'skill' part of the attack bonus that can be traded away, where the Str and magic parts can't).
In reality, combining these two is only really worthwhile in the very unusual case where the character basically needs a 20 to hit anyway, and he has paid 2 feats for the priviledge of doing so, so what's the harm in allowing that tactic in those few odd cases? It's not like the character's going to be doing terribly well - he has a 5% chance of scoring a hit, and only a 0.25% chance of a critical. The rest of the time, he scores no damage anyway, so -9 of that penalty is just wasted.
I don't think I could have said it any better myself. How come we only worry about what "makes sense" when we are talking about the combat classes? We limit a cleric or wizard according to what "makes sense," in fact we tend to reward them for "creative" use of their spells. Why then penalise the fighter for similarly "creative" use of his feats?
Remember, this fighter is level 9 (at least), which is so far above what any "normal" person would be capable of that any discussin of "sense" went out the window many levels ago. And he is fighting a DRAGON. When was the last time you saw a dragon on the street, and then someone trying to stab it with a pointy stick?
While it may or may not be realistic to use PA and CE in such a way, think about the situation. You said yourself the dragon was a bit too powerful; in my mind, this player needs and deserves every advantage he can get.
People like Fatespinner and others have already pointed out the logic of using these feats in conjunction. Reading their posts it makes perfect sense that you could use them together. I also think that the PC should be able to use both feats as they stand within the rules (up to the -14 penalty to hit). It's not like they stack or anything!
Strictly speaking, nothing says you can't use both feats to their maximum benefit. They don't draw from the same pool - you don't decrease your base attack, you merely accept an attack penalty equal to your base attack. I can see where you're coming from, though. However, if you accept a huge penalty then your to-hit is going to be terribly low anyway, so it's not especially overpowered.