The savage template has +1 CR to creature/npc so if it was added to a zombie wouldn't that make it a CR1 + a half and hence 450 xp for 1st to 4th level characters. The reason I ask this cause I really do believe this to be the case is our DM just gave us 1CR for savage zombie's. I believe he was wrong to do so. Any thoughts?
The savage template has +1 CR to creature/npc so if it was added to a zombie wouldn't that make it a CR1 + a half and hence 450 xp for 1st to 4th level characters. The reason I ask this cause I really do believe this to be the case is our DM just gave us 1CR for savage zombie's. I believe he was wrong to do so. Any thoughts?
I often as a DM change the xp rewards, as I feel 3.? is a little too generous with them.
In answer to your question, yes it would, but I'm not 100% sure you can apply the savage template to zombies, so are you sure it was savage zombies you fought and not another "certain" kind found in the adventure which are CR1.
You seem to be a player so not going to spoil anything!
But if the loss of xp affects you that much, just be honest and talk to your DM, it clears the air of bad feelings that may grow.
The savage template has +1 CR to creature/npc so if it was added to a zombie wouldn't that make it a CR1 + a half and hence 450 xp for 1st to 4th level characters. The reason I ask this cause I really do believe this to be the case is our DM just gave us 1CR for savage zombie's. I believe he was wrong to do so. Any thoughts?I often as a DM change the xp rewards, as I feel 3.? is a little too generous with them.
In answer to your question, yes it would, but I'm not 100% sure you can apply the savage template to zombies, so are you sure it was savage zombies you fought and not another "certain" kind found in the adventure which are CR1.
You seem to be a player so not going to spoil anything!
But if the loss of xp affects you that much, just be honest and talk to your DM, it clears the air of bad feelings that may grow.
I don't have bad feelings its just that sometimes I think the adventure writers try to screw you out of xp. As an example I'm in an Eberron game we're we went into a mine and there was an awakened wolf in there who asked us to free his brethren from a wolf abomination, which we did. It turns out that for doing this you get less xp than just killing the wolves, it seems to me in that situation your getting penalised for roleplaying and thinking your way around the problem.
In my original point I was just trying to ascertain whether it was the adventure or the DM.The problem with your line of thought with xp being too generous certain adventures assume you to be of a certain level so you can fireball and so on and without these skills your party can be wiped out.
Yes adventures for a certain level assume you have access to the standards for that level and I do adjust accodingly.
What I meant was I adjust xp to level the players when I need them to level etc, as opposed to giving out the sometimes massive xp for some easy to defeat encounters! I much prefer 2nd edition way of granting xp. (Can't seem to shake it out of my head)
if you defeat enemies, be it via roleplay, cunning, combat etc, then you should receive "full" xp regardless of method.
Typo's can happen and its possible thats what you discovered in the eberron adventure! I can't really comment on it as I don't know which adventure you refer to and I don't own any of the published eberron adventures, so couldn't comment either way regardless.
I didn't mean to imply you where upset by the loss of xp, but maybe asking the DM why he awarded less could help you realise something outside of what you are seeing! Most of us never have the bigger picture.
I'm a terrible pain in the ass when I get to "play" as opposed to DM, but I think thats part of the DM curse.
Honestly, you shouldn't simply know off-hand whether you're getting more XP for killing them or not. This really smacks of power gaming. As for the Savage Tide, the experience curve should be pretty right on.
~ Bryon ~
Are you mixing your templates up? The Savage Template can't be applied to undead, they are Ravenous Zombies under Parrot Island.
Which while it might add +1 CR (I don't have the template to check) added to a CR 1/2 creature the half CR gets rounded down as there is no CR 1.5
Same thing occurs with the Savage Monkeys. Monkeys are CR 1/6, they become CR 1 with the addition of the +1 CR Savage template not CR one and a sixth.
Are you mixing your templates up? The Savage Template can't be applied to undead, they are Ravenous Zombies under Parrot Island.
Same difference. I'm not a power gamer I'm a DM as well as a player and I've been DM'ing AOW I know the CR for zombies and know that the CR for tweaked zombies is 1/2 + x where x is the level of tweakness.
Which while it might add +1 CR (I don't have the template to check) added to a CR 1/2 creature the half CR gets rounded down as there is no CR 1.5.
Not on the table, no. Its simple maths. Where does it say it gets rounded down.
Not on the table, no. Its simple maths. Where does it say it gets rounded down.
The basic rule for 3.0 and 3.5 is that ALL fractions are rounded down in ALL cases unless otherwise specified in writing.
Not on the table, no. Its simple maths. Where does it say it gets rounded down.The basic rule for 3.0 and 3.5 is that ALL fractions are rounded down in ALL cases unless otherwise specified in writing.
Where does it say that?
Where does it say that?
From the System Reference Document, in the section marked "basics:"
ROUNDING FRACTIONS
In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger.
Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1.
Where does it say that?Not on the table, no. Its simple maths. Where does it say it gets rounded down.The basic rule for 3.0 and 3.5 is that ALL fractions are rounded down in ALL cases unless otherwise specified in writing.
Page 304 of Player's Handbook.
Page 304 of Player's Handbook.Where does it say that?Not on the table, no. Its simple maths. Where does it say it gets rounded down.The basic rule for 3.0 and 3.5 is that ALL fractions are rounded down in ALL cases unless otherwise specified in writing.
But to xp I don't think so. If it were my game I'd give the players 1 + half CR for an encounter as such cause otherwise its it stiffing the players and causes unrest.
In any case, the Ravenous Zombies aren't THAT much more powerful than regular zombies. The change basically gives them personality and makes them continue to attack opponents that have gone down... but regular zombies can be ordered to behave in that way, too, so really the only major change is the personality.
They are still limited to partial actions and they are still slow. If anything, they are weaker than regular zombies because you can herd some easily replaceable animal companions ahead of you and then kill the zombies while they're busy eating.
So I don't think you got stiffed. If you had trouble, it was more likely due to bad luck, which is one of the most common causes of trouble for level 1 characters.
The savage template has +1 CR to creature/npc so if it was added to a zombie wouldn't that make it a CR1 + a half and hence 450 xp for 1st to 4th level characters. The reason I ask this cause I really do believe this to be the case is our DM just gave us 1CR for savage zombie's. I believe he was wrong to do so. Any thoughts?
and how do you know their savage zombies? and if they were, what's a player doing using metagame information to try to knuckle the DM into giving them points?
In fact, if I were DM, i'd penalize the character for accessing metagame information and using it as leverage.
In fact, if I were DM, i'd penalize the character for accessing metagame information and using it as leverage.
The DM told us. So by your statement players are not allowed an opinion or can disagree with adventure writers. I'm sorry but that stinks of dictatorship and we all know what happened to certain famous dictators.
But to xp I don't think so. If it were my game I'd give the players 1 + half CR for an encounter as such cause otherwise its it stiffing the players and causes unrest.
It's just a game. When you're the DM, you can bend the rules to give out extra XP all you like. As it is, your DM chooses not to. Also, advancement in 3/3.5e is like twice as fast as in previous editions, so be thankful you're not back in 1e.
The DM told us. So by your statement players are not allowed an opinion or can disagree with adventure writers. I'm sorry but that stinks of dictatorship and we all know what happened to certain famous dictators.
If you hate your DM so much, quit that group and find another game. But, sorry, D&D pretty much requires a DM with more power than the players; that's just how it works.
But to xp I don't think so. If it were my game I'd give the players 1 + half CR for an encounter as such cause otherwise its it stiffing the players and causes unrest.It's just a game. When you're the DM, you can bend the rules to give out extra XP all you like. As it is, your DM chooses not to. Also, advancement in 3/3.5e is like twice as fast as in previous editions, so be thankful you're not back in 1e.
Unless your playing eberron where advancement seems so slow. Been playing for 9 weeks and not hit 4th level yet. Anyone else had this problem. I like the advancement quickly up the low levels cause generally your crap to start off with.
Getting back to the original point I don't like being screwed for xp/items its just not right and not fair. I'd rather make my players happy and give them what they want to a certain degree. It is as you said a game and people are there to have fun not get screwed.
In fact, if I were DM, i'd penalize the character for accessing metagame information and using it as leverage.The DM told us. So by your statement players are not allowed an opinion or can disagree with adventure writers. I'm sorry but that stinks of dictatorship and we all know what happened to certain famous dictators.
I ALWAYS encourage my players to discuss matters with me, out of the game, if they have a disagreement or a problem with the way I run things. Sometimes they like my rulings, sometimes not, but we discuss the matter and come to fair rulings as best we can, and in most cases, they understand that information that is "DM Only" is the province of the DM and they leave it as such.
Ok, so you know their savage zombies. So that gives you the right as a player to go digging through source material to find out how much your "kills" are worth?
I will not respond to your other petty comments.
If you hate your DM so much, quit that group and find another game. But, sorry, D&D pretty much requires a DM with more power than the players; that's just how it works.
No you don't understand I was referring to TwilightKings answer. I actually like my DM.
Ok, so you know their savage zombies. So that gives you the right as a player to go digging through source material to find out how much your "kills" are worth?
I will not respond to your other petty comments.
I didn't do any digging I know the xp table off by heart. I don't do things like that as I wouldn't like it if my players did that. I used information that was given to me. I've been roleplaying for 20 years so you could say I'm quite experienced. I've also DM'd for about 14 years and know a little of the rules. I don't need to resort to digging through source material. I generally have a good idea myself.
Man I'm glad I don't have any players like this.
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I feel that the DM made a judgment call that you don't agree with; it seems a pretty simple thing to do with the arbitrary way that CR works.
I can't say for sure though, maybe he's lowballing the exp's to fit more into the AP, I don't know.
I'll have to look at the template and compare the challenge to a straight CR 1 critter, and see if it seems fair. That might not even work though, because maybe he lowballs them too(?)
It's hard to tell because I'm not there personally.
Man I'm glad I don't have any players like this.
I'm actually quite a reasonable player and I was just curious on how these creature's worked out. I just don't like being screwed over. I don't game to get the feeling I'm being screwed over. I get enough of that at work lol.
In any case, the savage template cannot be added to zombies at all, and IS NOT on any zombies. So essentially, the problem is not that you got screwed over, but rather that you read too much into some offhand comment by the DM. Perhaps he meant "savage" as a descriptor for the zombies' behavior, rather than specifically "Savage" referring to the template.
You didn't get screwed out of anything. Period. Even if the DM 'owes' xp based on fractional CR, that didn't happen.
In any case, the savage template cannot be added to zombies at all, and IS NOT on any zombies. So essentially, the problem is not that you got screwed over, but rather that you read too much into some offhand comment by the DM. Perhaps he meant "savage" as a descriptor for the zombies' behavior, rather than specifically "Savage" referring to the template.
You didn't get screwed out of anything. Period. Even if the DM 'owes' xp based on fractional CR, that didn't happen.
As has been discussed I mistook savage zombies for ravenous zombies but same difference. Which I 'believe' to be the same +1 CR. So my 'arguement' still stands.
As has been discussed I mistook savage zombies for ravenous zombies but same difference. Which I 'believe' to be the same +1 CR. So my 'argument' still stands.In any case, the savage template cannot be added to zombies at all, and IS NOT on any zombies. So essentially, the problem is not that you got screwed over, but rather that you read too much into some offhand comment by the DM. Perhaps he meant "savage" as a descriptor for the zombies' behavior, rather than specifically "Savage" referring to the template.
You didn't get screwed out of anything. Period. Even if the DM 'owes' xp based on fractional CR, that didn't happen.
The Ravenous description does not add +1 CR to the zombie. Your argument is full of fail.
As has been discussed I mistook savage zombies for ravenous zombies but same difference. Which I 'believe' to be the same +1 CR. So my 'arguement' still stands.In any case, the savage template cannot be added to zombies at all, and IS NOT on any zombies. So essentially, the problem is not that you got screwed over, but rather that you read too much into some offhand comment by the DM. Perhaps he meant "savage" as a descriptor for the zombies' behavior, rather than specifically "Savage" referring to the template.
You didn't get screwed out of anything. Period. Even if the DM 'owes' xp based on fractional CR, that didn't happen.
Don't have any books with me, as I'm at work, but I'm pretty sure Ravenous isn't +1cr template. If I'm wrong about that sorry.
But I'm failing to see how you are getting "screwed" over, if you start at level 1 and end at level 20, who cares if you lose 1k xp overall for example, you still get there. Now if other players where levelling and you weren't that would be cause for concern! But as they aren't it makes no real difference!
The no.1 thing in all my games is that me and my players are having fun, who cares if you get 400, next to 450xp as long as you have fun doing it. If it bothers you to point enjoyment is ceasing, speak up and discuss if still the problem persists, then try anaother game.
D&D isn't a competition or a race, its a fun game for friends to enjoy.
Man I'm glad I don't have any players like this.
He's actually pretty fun to play with actually. I'm his GM for Savage Tide. He's only getting his own back, since he's our GM for AoW, you should have heard the complaints about the number of DR and critical proof critters we were facing at low level. And don't even mention the complaints when we realised movement penalties stack - darkness, stairs and rubble, so my Dwarf moved 5ft on a double move.
He has a valid question however. His initial point was a little confused by mentioning Savage Zombies, he meant Ravenous Zombies, and Savage Monkeys.
In both cases a +1 CR template is applied to a creature with a fractional CR. 1/2 in the case of zombies, and 1/6 in the case of the monkeys.
I had always assumed that you rounded down CRs over 1 as there are no CR 1.5 creature, this is also what the adventure writer has done. I'm pretty sure that is common (and correct) practice, although I can't find rules to confirm it.
At low CRs and levels the difference in XP between CR 1 and CR 1.5 is a lot. 300 or 450. Here rounding down seems to lead to a loss of XP award (hence darthloser feels robbed).
If you had a template that was for example +10 CR, then how do you calculate that on a CR 0.5 creature. CR 10.5 can't be a CR 10 creature plus half a CR 1 creature because by that time you get nothing for a CR 1 creature, which is why rounding down does make sense.
The Ravenous description does not add +1 CR to the zombie. Your argument is full of fail.
Which I 'believe' to be the same +1 CR. So my 'argument' still stands.
I think the word believe means quote from dictionary.com:-
to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so:
Which means that as I understand it. I've not read the adventure but I may so I can the absolute proof.
One more thing, what does full of fail mean? I 'believe' thats not good english.
One more thing, what does full of fail mean? I 'believe' thats not good english.
Fail is fail. Do not even begin to judge my English when your posts are full of errors.
You started this thread with absolutes. You have since dissolved into beliefs. If you're going to argue the point, quit changing your view on the subject, especially if you're going to lob definitions from Dictionary.com.
If you want serious answers to your question, fine. You'll get them. But don't expect much help when you attack other peoples stances on rules, or how they post.
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Before this totally degenerates into a flame war...
I have a Q about the savage template as well. I think I've been misreading it as the DM, and I think I've made it more than a little tougher on my PCs as a result.
The Death throes bit (and bear with me, I'm at work and don't have my material in front of me) says that when the savage creature is "killed outright", it does the d6 damage acid splash to all within 5 feet, DC15 Reflex negates right?
So that means this only occurs when the creature is sent below -10? As DM, I always fudge it and play that when the bad guys go to 0, they "die" and are removed from play, unless there's a particular reason the PC's don't want that to happen (they want to heal the guy to ask questions, or to have a prisoner, or a witness, or whatever etc etc).
Anyway, I've just been doing it so that every time a savage pirate dies, DC15 saves all around to everyone near him to avoid the acid. I should only do that if he's dropped to -10 or worse, right?
You started this thread with absolutes. You have since dissolved into beliefs.
Actually his first post is full of "believes", but ignoring that, I think the case of rounding down is best supported by the fact there are no fractional CR creatures above CR 1. The XP award system doesn't support them either.
It's hard to find stuff in the SRD about it because it's to do with awarding XP and the SRD specifically avoids mentioning how XP is awarded. I'll have to check my DMG when I get home, but I'm pretty sure fractional CRs are an exception to the rule for really weak creatures. So if you ever design a creature that is a bit tougher than a CR 1 critter but still weaker than a CR 2 creature you make them CR 1, which is what happens with fractional creatures given a template that gives +1 CR or more. They round down.
Before this totally degenerates into a flame war...
Just to clarify, that is NOT my intention, nor will I allow myself to engage in one. Should it get hot, I will withdraw. ;)
It's hard to find stuff in the SRD about it because it's to do with awarding XP and the SRD specifically avoids mentioning how XP is awarded.
Absolutely. I will check as well. No matter the perceived 'argument', it is relevant to my interests. I just wanted to get the actual situation from darthloser. Seems to be working now. ;)
D&D: Serious Business
Anyway, I've just been doing it so that every time a savage pirate dies, DC15 saves all around to everyone near him to avoid the acid. I should only do that if he's dropped to -10 or worse, right?
That's correct. In The Bullywug Gambit, my players soon learned the folly of 'over-killing' an opponent - i.e. taking it down from positives to -10 in one hit - and got into the habit of quickly backing off from a dropped opponent so as to be out of the blast-radius once it hit -10.
My own 'fudging' rule is that I never roll stabilisation checks for bad guys unless it's important to do so, and simply assume that any creature dropped into negatives will expire shortly thereafter.
Just to point out the Savage creatures, keep on fighting after they are at 0 hit points thanks to the Ferocity template feature, so you have to 'over-kill' them to stop them. So stepping back when they are at -5 isn't much help as they just come after you.
This is what makes the template particularly deadly at low level.
1) They effectively get +10 hit points due to ferocity.
2) They get even more effective hit points thanks to DR 5/magic as most party members won't have magic weapons at this level.
3) They get an extra bite attack.
4) And when you kill them, and you have to kill them not just get them below 0. They get a free bite attack and an acid burst.
Also have I some how ended up with Fiendish Dire Weasel on an ignore list because I see everyone quoting him but none of his posts? And if so how do I take him off?
Also have I some how ended up with Fiendish Dire Weasel on an ignore list because I see everyone quoting him but none of his posts? And if so how do I take him off?
He might have foolishly allowed this "darthloser" kid to goad him into saying something rash and objectionable, in which case the Lords of Paizo would have smited his post with "dispel flames" and hidden the remains with invisibility.
He might have foolishly allowed this "darthloser" kid to goad him into saying something rash and objectionable, in which case the Lords of Paizo would have smited his post with "dispel flames" and hidden the remains with invisibility.
Who's a kid. I'm no kid and I'm not goading anyone.
D&D: Serious Business
It's not business, it's real life ;-)
Just to point out the Savage creatures, keep on fighting after they are at 0 hit points thanks to the Ferocity template feature, so you have to 'over-kill' them to stop them. So stepping back when they are at -5 isn't much help as they just come after you.
Whoops, I missed that bit completely when I ran that chapter. Looks like my players got off lightly.
Yay! You're back, FDW! Don't worry, we all still like you (and not just because you have a cool Order of the Stick avatar).
I don't think I've ever said anything on these boards that would make anybody block or ignore me, let alone have a mod delete my posts or something.
I hope I haven't offended anyone. If I have, I apologize.
You've not offended me in any way.
I'm actually quite a reasonable player and I was just curious on how these creature's worked out. I just don't like being screwed over. I don't game to get the feeling I'm being screwed over. I get enough of that at work lol.
I'm willing to take you for your word on that. All I know is that I don't appreciate my players laying on the metagame knowledge to try to max out their characters. And if one of them went to the publisher's message boards to drum up support to say that I was wrong in my DMing, I'd probably not want to DM for that person any more. I would hope there'd be more trust that the DM was doing what he thought was right for the campaign, whether you were getting cheated or not.
I think our play styles may be different enough that we won't sync on this. I wish I hadn't made such a snap judgment about you, though. Sorry about that.
I wasn't trying to rally support I was just looking for other peoples opinions. I totally go with the DM's decision but because I'm a DM myself and I've DM'd a lot of 3ed I will analyse what goes on and sometimes I would do something differently than the DM. I'm a believer in trying to give the players what they want to a certain degree as they come to the game to enjoy it. If I felt I was getting screwed over all the time I'd just stay at home and put a pencil in my eye instead.
Just so everyone knows I'm enjoying the campaign so far and I think its getting better and better(wich is probably a combination of DM and adventure material), plus my character (a straight fighter)rocks so hope this continues to be the case. Though as a player and a DM I'm entitled to an opinion and it may vary to other people/DM's.
I read Dork Tower this morning in Dragon 353and thought it was quite apt. This especially so:-
The Geneva Conventions
3. It is to be remembered that experience points are a RIGHt, not a PRIVILEGE. Any DM found withholding hardearned XP's that rightfully belong to the PC's should then be reminded that the pepperoni pizza that has been brought to the game (because the DM likes pepperoni) is a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT. It'll be anchovies next time. Lol.
If I felt I was getting screwed over all the time I'd just stay at home and put a pencil in my eye instead.
I'll bring my pencil sharpener to next Sundays game then.
If I felt I was getting screwed over all the time I'd just stay at home and put a pencil in my eye instead.I'll bring my pencil sharpener to next Sundays game then./QUOTE]
Gee, thanks. Really considerate on you. You can't kill my character! How will the party survive without me. Plus, there's my background to consider.