So, in contrast to another thread about the religion of players, I wanted to get other people's feelings about religions *in* the game.
While I enjoy D&D, and enjoy playing the core game as written, there's something that has come to bug me about the game recently, and I wondered what others did in their games, particularly those with home-brewed worlds and settings.
I'm starting to really dislike the way gods, religions and clerics are presented in D&D, and how this affects both settings, and the overall treatment of magic.
Clerics get spells from their gods because their gods are 50' tall beings who can poke you if they want to, and in many cases because they will actually explicitly talk to the clerics and tell them what they want done.
This explicitly affects the overall way magic is presented because it creates a (in my opinion) bizarre, arbitrary and needless division between arcane and divine magic.
I myself would like to see a D&D world where we have no empirical evidence for the existence of gods (much like our own world), and the guy with the vestments is just a guy in a shawl and a hat. I think in the "real world" (in as much as that phrase can be applied in any meaningful way in this context), if magic existed, religion would just incorporate it into its world view. Sure, people who practiced magic could easily set themselves up as priest, pope or god, because look at his MIGHTY POWERS, but that would soon fade away, and those would only be cults of personality of varying size. Religions would either accept it, laying out what kinds of magic were good and what kinds were taboo, or they'd reject all magic and try to burn the witches.
Have other DMs attempted this in their home brewed campaigns? If so, how did you handle it? Did you make any changes to the magic system? What gods did you offer?
And as an added bonus question, did you ever add real world religions to your game, and if so, what stage of development did you add them (during the arrival of a prophet, a hundred years or so after the appearance of a messiah, long after the religion was established...)? I'm sure many, many people have done this, so I wanted to explore this area of the game in-thread.
What is KtSP? On topic I generally prefer having clerics that have no specifiic deities because it more readily reflects the fact that in the game world we don't know gods exist just that clerics weild a mysterious source of power similar to arcane magic. The gods can be fun though so I sometimes use them.
What is KtSP?
Minister of Kill the Stupid People.
A friend on another board declared herself Empress. Other people then started declaring Ministries they wanted to be in charge of. I took Minister of Kill the Stupid People. The office is a personal favorite of the Empress.
Where do I sign up for clerical training?
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I don't like the Gods in D&D to be hidden and unknown. I like that they are up close and personal and will smote thine arse. I think it works because they are known but can't get too personally involved in any particular project (except through their mortal proxies) for fear of the opposing gods getting involved and laying the celestial smackdown on the offender.
I see them as having a set of rules that they follow which lessen their options for direct intervention and severely limits their personal interference with mortal activities. If the rules are broken the opposing gods gang up on the upstart and imprison it/strip it of power/or otherwise F it up so that the offending god loses power/strength/theological standing.
Basically they police their own. They provide the mortals with power and plans to help advance their own status but within the predefined limits of the Gods Rules.
That is my take on it and my opinion on Fantasy Theology. Not really helpful but I thought it bore stating.
FH
I don't like the Gods in D&D to be hidden and unknown. ...(snip)...
That is my take on it and my opinion on Fantasy Theology. Not really helpful but I thought it bore stating.FH
Thanks FH. Yeah, I can see ways to make it work for a given campaign, and each of the published campaigns (FR, Eberron) go to certain lengths to build their explanations into the world, but I guess I'd like to see more variety on the actual deistic stance of a campaign world.
I think it's partly because it's built into the core game, but even though there are differences in the religions from world to world, they all come across as minor variations on the same flavor (vanilla, French vanilla, strawberry vanilla).
I think the basic way to do this is just make a low to no magic world, but I'd like to see a campaign world with at least moderate magic levels, and possibly even outer planes (I can easily see a world with outer planes but no "gods"), but where the actual god or gods are subject of much denomination and debate. It makes the religion question a little more intricate and relevant in the campaign world in question, as counterintuitive as that sounds.
I think if you make the gods explicit and known it actually makes them (and their religious groups) less relevant to the campaign world. Which religion or god(s) you follow becomes just another decision you try on, like a character class or a choice of armor, with attendant bonuses or drawbacks ripe for min/maxing.
Where do I sign up for clerical training?
The Ministry is always hiring.
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My world has four religions, each of which started with a (somewhat sophomoric, perhaps) philosophy. Three of the religions see each other as misdirected but quaint; so obviously wrong as to not be worth refuting. They have much less tolerant attitudes toward schismatic sects of their own philosophies.
The fourth is less tolerant, but I still tried to keep it morally ambiguous. If it is correct, it is justified in its intolerance; if not, it is just abusive.
I take what I believe to be something like the Eberron view of religion. Clerics can obviously do stuff, but it's not so clear exactly how. I also tried to go more toward a Pantheon focus rather than a God focus for each religion, since that seems to better reflect how polytheism works here.
In every case, I messed around with Clerical domains quite a bit (Cyclicist Clerics must change domains with every level, for instance).
Fascinating stuff, Doug. I'd love to hear more.
I also tried to go more toward a Pantheon focus rather than a God focus for each religion, since that seems to better reflect how polytheism works here.
I tried to do this a little with one of my campaigns, but it took a while for some of my players to wrap their heads around it. They kept wanting to focus on a specific god in their pantheon, and I kept having to tell them that nobody did that and their were no clerics to a specific deity, everybody worshiped the whole pantheon. To change things up a bit, when one PC died in a far away land, he made a paladin for his replacement. I made him a follower of a in-game version of Islam, which has actually made for some interesting in-game interactions.
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You could...perhaps have a gnostic school of thought that believes that the gods are not what they seem; all magic divine or arcane derives from nature;...or perhaps a school of thought or one divine sect that believes all the deities (or all the deities besides the one TRUE deity) are really demons or devils out to fool humankind into oblivion. Don't tell the p.c.'s what the truth is mind you, just put it out there. Then you can have the best of both worlds--the big smoters (as fakey put it) AND the ambiguous notion of faith.
I think of the published settings, Eberron comes the closest to the concepts presented in the original post. Distant (never walking the mortal or even outer planes), pantheons for clerics, wide variety in alignment of adherents, no necessary link between spellcasting ability and place in church hierarchy.
For myself, I typically run in Mystara, so most of the "gods" are not gods at all but Immortals that were once mortal and transcended to a higher existence. These Immortals, in turn, have the opportunity (though few know it) to transcend their own existence to something Beyond. This idea was basically laid out in the OD&D Immortals set, so isn't of my own making.
Now, I have tinkered with different deity and magic systems before, two of the biggest being (1) throw the whole spellcasting mechanic out the door and use something like Legends of Sorcery or Mythic Earth: Elements of Magic with no distinction between arcance and divine magic and (2) take aware the general spell list of clerics, and they instead choose from domains related to their deity (similar to the Spheres of 2ed), gaining access to greater levels of magic as they focus in domains. The latter I'm using right now in my Savage Tide campaign. Seems to be working very well. The former is very cool, but hard to implement when everyone is so familiar with the existing magic system...
You could...perhaps have a gnostic school of thought that believes that the gods are not what they seem; all magic divine or arcane derives from nature;...or perhaps a school of thought or one divine sect that believes all the deities (or all the deities besides the one TRUE deity) are really demons or devils out to fool humankind into oblivion. Don't tell the p.c.'s what the truth is mind you, just put it out there. Then you can have the best of both worlds--the big smoters (as fakey put it) AND the ambiguous notion of faith.
Nice...
Dragonlance had something like this in the SAGA era. You rability to cast spells came from your faith and inner strength, or somesuch.
I think this is a great idea, an alternative to the normal Gods. They are believed in, and followed, but the spellcasting ability comes from faith, not a deity.
Well, here I go again, pimping for Monte Cook. Basically, while nothing can add more flavor to a campaign than religion, that flavor is, as said before, usually vanilla. Monte Cook's Books of Hallowed Might (there are two) give some interesting ideas for how to make this aspect of the game (and your world) more interesting. Personally, it's all more trouble to me than it's worth, so I'm glad to throw divinity, divine spells, and divine spellcasters out the window. Which is exactly what Monte Cook does in Arcana Evolved, his variant player's handbook. It's worth checking out.
Divine intervention is pretty lame, I think. The only divine intervention that should exist in a campaign is when a divine spellcaster receives his or her spells. That's as far as it should go, including things like miracle, commune, etc. Eberron is mentioned a lot and I think one of the most laudable parts of the setting is the distance between worshippers and deities. Clerics should be awe-inspiring because of the miracles that they seem to be able to perform due to their unshakable faith. It's a little ridiculous to have a cleric in every town able to immediately heal wounds that would kill the average person and cure disease with a touch. Of course, we have to suspend disbelief in favor of the players in some instances, unless we want these things to bog down the game.
The reason the gods shouldn't ever walk the earth is that they are one of the clearest voices of the DM. The villain, the commoner, the rival adventurer; these are all plausible roles for the DM to play with limited abilities within the framework of the setting. A deity is a creature with innumerable advantages that do not have to be explained by any means. And as soon as they walk the surface of the campaign world, the players must soon wonder why their characters should bother even getting out of bed. A diety should be looked upon as the DM taking an easy route to railroad a plot or punish players for one thing or another. The players' actions paint the DM into a corner plotwise, so what happens now? Well, St. Cuthbert pops in and decides to set everything back in the direction it's supposed to go in the notes.
Faith isn't faith if deities are tangible in the setting beyond their churches and clergy. Part of faith is believing in something bigger than one's self. If Tyr has been seen marching his twelve-foot deific frame into battle (on recent record), churches are more like fans at a sporting event than human worshippers attempting to fathom the unfathomable.
Deific beings as adversaries can work, though and that's the only exception I have. The PCs can be the heroes in that case, which is why it works. If they ask "Why weren't the gods of good riding in like the cavalry to the rescue, rather than leaving the dirty work to mere mortals like ourselves?", then that is a good question. And it would be up to the characters to answer it. Kyuss and Iuz work as divine intervention, because they represent the ultimate challenge, the ultimate antagonist. Heironeous and St. Cuthbert and Kord and all of them should get bent, because all they can do is steal thunder for the characters and eat up long, agonizing moments of game time.
Two things:
1. The Elder Scrolls has an interesting take. Each major race and region of Tamriel has their own racial deity cluster, like the Tribunal in Morrowind, but it has largely been replaced by the Imperial tradition of Aedra worship, seven or nine gods, including the founding emperor, Tiber Septim.
Then there are the daedra. These are strange and ambiguous beings that come from the plane of Oblivion, and most of them are right nasty. The lesser varieties are just like normal D&D outsiders, such as the Tanar'ri and Baatezu. However, the Daedra Lords are different. Some believe they are just powerful entities, many believe the are actual gods. However, no one doubts they exist, because you can summon and talk to them.
As I said, most of the daedra and their lords are truly demonic, but not all. Azura is the deadra of mysteries, dawn and dusk, and is actually quite benevolent in many cases. There are tales of the daedra helping people in need, and of laying merciless devastation to the world. So, even within their certain existence, there is ambiguity.
However, the other gods are not so certain. There are many people who believe the Aedra are a lie. The gods of the dark elves, the Tribunal, are known to be real, because they are
"ascended" mortals (with some pretty dark secrets to conceal about said ascencion, which is a lot of the bases of Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind, an excellent, though now outdated, game).
All in all, the culture, captured by the religion, of the Elder Scrolls is one of the most intriguing parts of the world, and excellently done. It sticks to traditional "modern fantasy" in the D&D context (Aedra worshippers draw spells), while introducing new elements to the world regarding concerns over the nature and even existence of divinity (this is augmented a lot by the fact that there is no distinction between divine and arcane magic, however).
2. I myself have had thoughts about developing a more pantheon-based religious system, where there are legends similar to geneological charts of what "family" of gods begot this or that other "family." However, I've also toyed with the thought of there being just one or two groups that are "real" gods, and the others are just very powerful entities and beings, similar to the Lords of the Nine or the Demon Princes. I suppose that's somewhat similar to the Elder Scrolls example I gave above.
I've wondered if I should change the mechanics for this somehow, since some gods are more "real" than others, but I think that it would enhance the mystery if all clerics are still able to draw power from the commonly accepted gods, and that's not what distinguishes the argument between "real" and "false" gods (although adherents of the "false" ones would try to make the fact that they cast spells an issue).
There was a thread not to long ago, about toning down healing for the general population while remaining potent for the adventurers and having ways to do this. One idea offered was that the cleric class shouldn't be as common as it is- rather, many of them should just be experts with ranks in Knowledge (religion) and Heal. I think this is interesting, but it certainly has some impacts on the game world that I'll have to consider carefully before deciding to implement it myself.
For the record, I don't have a problem with the deity system that currently exists, but I haven't been playing too terribly long. I realize, and even expect, really, that at some point in the future I will get a creative urge too strong to resist and make a lot of my own gods and ideas for how to incorporate/portray them. Thus, I can fully understand and even enjoy participating in discussions about such matters. :)
In my homebrew game, there are no clerics or division between arcane and divine magic. Mages have the option of taking Pious feats that represent magic coming from their faith, but whether some deity or other is the source or simply their force of belief nobody can say because like in the real world, nobody has ever seen a deity.
End shameless plug.
Shameless bump.
Anybody else have any variations on religion and magic that they like to use in their homebrewed world?
And more generally, do people prefer homebrewed, or a mainstream campaign world like FR or Eberron?
... And more generally, do people prefer homebrewed, or a mainstream campaign world like FR or Eberron?
I used to perfer homebrew, but lately I've been going Greyhawk for the soul reason that they already have descriptive texts made for every place on the map. I'm finding it very time-saving to use the pre-made stuff...
Ultradan
I still use the old dieties and demigods book with all the religions based on known mythology.
In a homebrew campaign that never took off (I got a new job), I had a nation with a religion of nation-worship. People prayed to their king as a soverign, and when they died, their souls would inhabit the court of souls in a segregated area. The king was in no way more powerful, but was able to channel this belief, granting clerics of the nation their spells, and command a small force of native outsiders as the nation's elite guard.
They believed all other religions worshipped demonic spirits and were hyper-nationalistic, and were thus at odds with every other nation.
I myself would like to see a D&D world where we have no empirical evidence for the existence of gods (much like our own world), and the guy with the vestments is just a guy in a shawl and a hat.
That's how I prefer it, too, and how I handle it in my homebrewed Greyhawk. It works pretty much the same way in official Eberron, too.
In my home brew religion comes in two main streams: Organized temples and clergy of major deities, and local shamans who bargain with spirits, ghosts and demons. The major religions cross cultural boundaries, and there are only 6 deities. I tried to think of gods that people would actually feel they need in all societies, so there is a mother godess/crop guardian, a moon goddess/arcane deity, a sun/father god, a warrior/protection god, a goddess of love/intoxication, and a god of merchants/luck. These deities exist in all cultures with slightly different names or forms, including non-humans. So there is no Gruumsh or Corellan. the elves worship the moon goddess as the head of their pantheon, and the orcs the mother goddess. The moon goddess by contrast is very unimportant to the dwarves, whose head is the father god (without his sun aspect). I chose these deities to be relevant and create realism, rather than have gods of things like slaughter or pestilence that commonly appear in fantasy but I think are a bit silly. If I need an evil cult I just make it a local demon cult.
The people in rural and barbaric areas may perform the odd ritual to the major gods, but for everyday spiritual needs they propitiate their local spirits etc. Priests in cities and shamans in the backwoods both get divine spells, and no-one knows quite how, but whereas you'll find people who are atheist about the major gods, no-one is atheist about the shaman's spirits. Most people have seen one at a new year's ritual or something. But to believe in the major gods and their churches requires faith. The major churches have different attitudes to the others, ranging from "they are all our god's children" to "they are just demons pretending to be gods".
It sounds complicated, but it's not really and it's working well for us. Most of the PCs are city-dwelling atheists anyway, though the rogue superstiously follows the luck god and the bard the goddess of wine, love and partying. Plus it's cool when the party invades an orc village and sees a statue that looks like their mother goddess with big orcy teeth.