1. So, then, you do not presume that humans behave according to what their brains tell them to do?
2. Or is it that you do not believe that human brains behave according to natural principles?
3. Or is it that you do not believe that science can understand the natural principles under which human brains operate (ie. that there is something beyond what science can understand)?
1. This sentence is meaningless.
2. The brain does. Behavior, however, is changeable; humans can choose to behave other than in ways that make any sense. And they do. Often subconsciously.3. No.
Come back and make that assertion again when we can make life out of nonliving material.
...and yet again, the goalpost shifts. Now we don't just have to understand natural systems; we have to be able to create them all from scratch. Today. Not "within the foreseeable future."
If you assert that the brain is what controls human behavior and that it is subject to those same natural forces that you assert are explainable by science (e.g. electro-chemical reactions), then behavior isn't very changeable. It is, in fact, highly predictable. Given some set of stimuli, a given reaction will result. That is, contrary to your earlier assertion that humans can behave irrationally, their actions are quite easily explained rationally.
You seem to be interested in computers, so try this analogy: if you understand how to make a random number generator, can you predict every number it will ever generate in advance? If not, does that mean that the computer is a divine artifact built by God?
"what does quite well understood" mean to you? It clearly means something very different to you than it means to me. If I say that I understand Japanese very well, but am unable to actually tell you what somebody said in Japanese, then I don't understand it very well. If I tell you that I understand the workings of biological life very well, but am unable to create life, then I don't understand the workings of biological life very well.
A better analogy is that you're saying "If I say I understand Japanese very well, I have to be able to compose high Noh drama in it which is comparable with the best of classical offerings." There's a LARGE difference between understanding how life works, and being able to create it. I know how a volcano works, but I can't build one in my backyard out of oatmeal and cupcakes.
I am becoming increasingly impatient with your trolling. I have shown you respect as a chemist. I expect respect in return. I have enough degrees, enough patents, enough accomplishments in my life to have earned it.
Be as impatient as you like; maybe you'll stop this nonsense. But see edit above -- I changed it to something more polite before I read your reply. As to respect, I'll show a LOT more when you stop making incorrect assertions about things you don't know anything about. P.S. I'm not a chemist.
As it is, you're like a guy who claims to be an expert on Harley Davidsons because he can change the oil.
And that guy will never be able to learn to change the plugs? Nonsense.
we, in fact, do have unlimited time and money.er..no, we don't. You've heard, perhaps, of the heat death of the universe?
So far in the distant future as to make speculation of what we might or might not know absolutely meaningless. At the moment, if the theory is true, (and we don't know that it is) then its speculated that we might start noticing the first effects in 10 to the 100th power years.
I've managed a gelato shop, a deli, and a multi-million dollar a year drug ring, what do I get to be an expert on? I want to argue, dammit!
I'm interested in hearing about the economics of drugs!
Then again I'm also interested in hearing about the tastiness of gelato.
Hmm, choices, choices.
Ooh! Did you ever make gelato with the drugs as a means of smuggling them? What would be your expert opinion on the marketability of drug-flavored gelato?
So far in the distant future as to make speculation of what we might or might not know absolutely meaningless. At the moment, if the theory is true, (and we don't know that it is) then its speculated that we might start noticing the first effects in 10 to the 100th power years.we, in fact, do have unlimited time and money.er..no, we don't. You've heard, perhaps, of the heat death of the universe?
My intro to philosophy teacher hated the idea of the heat death of the universe. He thought it was too depressing to be true, so instead was a Catholic and thus presumably believed Revelation would be preferable. I'm not quite sure how psychedelic gigadeath wars and global catastrophe are preferable to a slow fading away into nothingness that by definition nobody would even be around to endure, but that wasn't his only questionable judgment. He expected us to take extremely seriously the writings of a guy who claimed with a straight face, in the very book we were reading where we couldn't miss it, that he had created spaghetti ex nihilo by mental effort.
This was the late 90s and he was in his fifties at the time, so I'm guessing LSD was involved back in the day.
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I've managed a gelato shop, a deli, and a multi-million dollar a year drug ring, what do I get to be an expert on? I want to argue, dammit!I'm interested in hearing about the economics of drugs!
Then again I'm also interested in hearing about the tastiness of gelato.
Hmm, choices, choices.
Ooh! Did you ever make gelato with the drugs as a means of smuggling them? What would be your expert opinion on the marketability of drug-flavored gelato?
I had a lot of customers ask about a weed flavored gelato.
I'm not normally a religious man, but... if you're up there, save me, Superman!
- Homer Simpson
I've managed a gelato shop, a deli, and a multi-million dollar a year drug ring, what do I get to be an expert on? I want to argue, dammit!
Psha! I never let not being an expert stop me from spouting off. Hell, I am not even college educated.
Perhaps that's why Kirth wants to treat the human brain like a magic box - because science isn't able to handle that kind of organized complexity and he knows it. I'm not saying that such organized complexity can't be handled. It can. In fact, the professor I mentioned earlier created an entire branch of mathematics to help deal with it. But science isn't going to handle it.
Kirth is a field scientist. To me, the difference between "free will, for all intents and purposes," and "free will" is one that philosophers can waste their time over. I have contaminated soils and groundwater to clean up -- using the tools of science, despite your claims that science "can't handle real-world systems."
Can't currently handle the complexity of the brain in its entirety? Sure, I have no problem with that. We know how how the nuerons fire, and which parts do what, but not what the end result of processing is going to be. I'm fine with that.
Your other examples, though, to try and back up an absolute statement that's been continually demonstrated as being untrue... Can't predict the actions of a catalyst? Wrong. Can't predict the qualities of water from those of H and O? Wrong. Can't predict how H and O will combine under a given set of conditions? Wrong. Can't predict natural systems to a high degree of accuracy? Wrong. You might admit to just one of those, instead of backpedalling frantically until finding examples you're happy with.
If you claim that all ice cream is chocolate, the best way to demonstrate that claim is not to mug people for their ice cream and visibly throw away a lot of vanilla cones until a chocolate one comes up.
Give it a rest, LT. Whatever legitimate points you may have are completely overshadowed by your unwavering, overwhelming need to be right about everything. :(
Wait, I thought that was my shtick. I want some niche protection here, dammit!
Actually, it's mine. Both you fools need to clear out.
I've managed a gelato shop, a deli, and a multi-million dollar a year drug ring, what do I get to be an expert on? I want to argue, dammit!Psha! I never let not being an expert stop me from spouting off. Hell, I am not even college educated.
Or paper trained! YAP!
Or paper trained! YAP!I've managed a gelato shop, a deli, and a multi-million dollar a year drug ring, what do I get to be an expert on? I want to argue, dammit!Psha! I never let not being an expert stop me from spouting off. Hell, I am not even college educated.
He just goes wherever he wants whenever he wants. See, he just did three minutes ago. X_X
Wait, I thought that was my shtick. I want some niche protection here, dammit!
Hmmm, I could look into the legality of this for you, sir.
Do you take bagels as a retainer? I seem to have left my wallet in my other pants...Wait, I thought that was my shtick. I want some niche protection here, dammit!Hmmm, I could look into the legality of this for you, sir.
Only if they're whole wheat - doctor's orders.
Very well, as a duly appointed representative of a fictious legal system, and complete figment of someone's imagination who nevertheless receives responses as if he were a real person, I have determined that, according to the aforementioned fictious legal system, Houstonderek, henceforth referred to as The Plaintiff, has a legitimate beef against bugleyman, heretofore referred to as The Violator.
It is The Plaintiff's assertion that The Violator knowingly and willing infringed upon The Plaintiff's Shtick, described as the niche wherein The Plaintiff gets to tell people to STFD & STFU. The Violator has reversed asserted that the Shtick is actually his.
We find for the Plaintiff, primarily due to a made up legal whim, but also due to the unconfirmed rumor that the Violator enjoys watching Dora the Explorer and smells like 3 day old cabbage.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Very well, as a duly appointed representative of a fictious legal system, and complete figment of someone's imagination who nevertheless receives responses as if he were a real person, I have determined that, according to the aforementioned fictious legal system, Houstonderek, henceforth referred to as The Plaintiff, has a legitimate beef against bugleyman, heretofore referred to as The Violator.
It is The Plaintiff's assertion that The Violator knowingly and willing infringed upon The Plaintiff's Shtick, described as the niche wherein The Plaintiff gets to tell people to STFD & STFU. The Violator has reversed asserted that the Shtick is actually his.
We find for the Plaintiff, primarily due to a made up legal whim, but also due to the unconfirmed rumor that the Violator enjoys watching Dora the Explorer and smells like 3 day old cabbage.
Hey! Pretending to be a lawyer is my shtick!
...the Violator enjoys watching Dora the Explorer and smells like 3 day old cabbage.
It's true.
Hey! Pretending to be a lawyer is my shtick!Very well, as a duly appointed representative of a fictious legal system, and complete figment of someone's imagination who nevertheless receives responses as if he were a real person, I have determined that, according to the aforementioned fictious legal system, Houstonderek, henceforth referred to as The Plaintiff, has a legitimate beef against bugleyman, heretofore referred to as The Violator.
It is The Plaintiff's assertion that The Violator knowingly and willing infringed upon The Plaintiff's Shtick, described as the niche wherein The Plaintiff gets to tell people to STFD & STFU. The Violator has reversed asserted that the Shtick is actually his.
We find for the Plaintiff, primarily due to a made up legal whim, but also due to the unconfirmed rumor that the Violator enjoys watching Dora the Explorer and smells like 3 day old cabbage.
I was acting as your proxy while you were....er...otherwise engaged with...well...you know.....
I was acting as your proxy while you were....er...otherwise engaged with...well...you know.....
I know. Now where is my money?
Give it a rest, LT. Whatever legitimate points you may have are completely overshadowed by your unwavering, overwhelming need to be right about everything. :(Actually, I conceeded earlier that, if we're able to control all the variables on a complex system, then we're able to study it in a lab.
So, I think I have demonstrated willingness to admit where I'm wrong.
LT, you're obviously a really bright guy. And like most bright guys, you have a healthy ego. That's a good thing. All I suggesting is that maybe you aren't being completely objective in this case.
In hindsight, I probably should have stayed out of it.
In hindsight, I probably should have stayed out of it.
Especially since you've now been found guilty of violating the Shtick Law. I'm afraid you're going to have to make reparations to The Plaintiff. The minimum pumishment for this infraction is 12 Jolly Ranchers, a pound of cooked bacon (Oscar Mayer Center Cut only), and a case of The Plaintiff's favorite beer.
Attorney's fees can be summed up in three words: Hookers and Blow.
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In hindsight, I probably should have stayed out of it.Especially since you've now been found guilty of violating the Shtick Law. I'm afraid you're going to have to make reparations to The Plaintiff. The minimum pumishment for this infraction is 12 Jolly Ranchers, a pound of cooked bacon (Oscar Mayer Center Cut only), and a case of The Plaintiff's favorite beer.
Attorney's fees can be summed up in three words: Hookers and Blow.
Um, hookers and blow are my niche, too. From way back...
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I was acting as your proxy while you were....er...otherwise engaged with...well...you know.....
Oh yeah...thanks for standing in.
I know. Now where is my money?
Wait? You thought you'd get money in this transaction?
Uh...okay...sure...I've got money for you...it's uh...in my trunk...don't mind me standing above you with a shotgun...I'm uh...covering you...
I was acting as your proxy while you were....er...otherwise engaged with...well...you know.....
Oh yeah...thanks for standing in.
I know. Now where is my money?Wait? You thought you'd get money in this transaction?
Uh...okay...sure...I've got money for you...it's uh...in my trunk...don't mind me standing above you with a shotgun...I'm uh...covering you...
I'm gestalt! You can't kill me with that piddly shot... is that a Remmington? I'll just take this stapler... and be on my way...
I did take offense when, after having treated Kirth with respect, he insisted on not returning that respect. It is very possible that that offense prevented me from acting objectively and, further, led to me over stressing my point with regards to systems theory.
Our definitions of "respect" evidently differ substantially. When evaluating a lack of respect, I weigh "failing to pretend to talk nice" into it far less than things like making false assertions, moving goalposts, ignoring points, and so on. By my personal definition, I was treated with a pervasive and near-total lack of respect. By your definition, apparently so were you.
Um, hookers and blow are my niche, too. From way back...In hindsight, I probably should have stayed out of it.Especially since you've now been found guilty of violating the Shtick Law. I'm afraid you're going to have to make reparations to The Plaintiff. The minimum pumishment for this infraction is 12 Jolly Ranchers, a pound of cooked bacon (Oscar Mayer Center Cut only), and a case of The Plaintiff's favorite beer.
Attorney's fees can be summed up in three words: Hookers and Blow.
Perhaps, but we are dealing with the legal system here on these boards. As such, the poster with the most time, and who used the term "hookers and blow" for the first time here on Paizo, is Sebastian. As his duly appointed proxy in Paizo legal matters, I am therefore allowed to use the term with impunity.
I was acting as your proxy while you were....er...otherwise engaged with...well...you know.....
Oh yeah...thanks for standing in.
No problem. We should probably think about starting a firm: Pony and Paladin?
Our definitions of "respect" evidently differ substantially. When evaluating a lack of respect, I weigh "failing to pretend to talk nice" into it far less than things like making false assertions, moving goalposts, ignoring points, and so on. By my personal definition, I was treated with a pervasive and near-total lack of respect. By your definition, apparently so were you.
Sir, as a legal representative of the Paizo boards, I could be persuaded to take on your case and develop an official Paizo definition of the term "respect". My fee in this case would be a George Clooney Bobble Head, a six pack of Dogfish Head 60 Minute IPA, and Jessica Simpson's autograph.
My fee in this case would be a George Clooney Bobble Head, a six pack of Dogfish Head 60 Minute IPA, and Jessica Simpson's autograph.
Alas, obtaining the latter item would cause me personal disgust to such a degree that I would be unable to appear in court.
No problem. We should probably think about starting a firm: Pony and Paladin?
I was acting as your proxy while you were....er...otherwise engaged with...well...you know.....
Oh yeah...thanks for standing in.
Does that make him your mount?
My fee in this case would be a George Clooney Bobble Head, a six pack of Dogfish Head 60 Minute IPA, and Jessica Simpson's autograph.Alas, obtaining the latter item would cause me personal disgust to such a degree that I would be unable to appear in court.
As legal counsel, I am open to negotiation. Perhaps the autograph of Dolly Parton instead?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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No problem. We should probably think about starting a firm: Pony and Paladin?
I was acting as your proxy while you were....er...otherwise engaged with...well...you know.....
Oh yeah...thanks for standing in.
Genius. We should go with the ampersand - it's more legal. Something like:
Pony & Paladin
Attorneys at Law
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Have you seen her ass? Seriously.My fee in this case would be a George Clooney Bobble Head, a six pack of Dogfish Head 60 Minute IPA, and Jessica Simpson's autograph.Alas, obtaining the latter item would cause me personal disgust to such a degree that I would be unable to appear in court.
Wait...she has an ass? Next you'll tell me she has a face. I've never noticed either of these features. It's almost as though my eyes never quite left her center of gravity...