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This will likely have some appeal I can't quite fathom to the heterosexual men and lesbian woman in the thread, but there's a point to it too.
As some might recall from a post Kirth made a while back, an Iranian cleric sounded off on how immodest dress in women causes earthquakes. They're calling his bluff. Perhaps in the end he shall come on the TV and declare that he did not mean the kind of earthquakes that shake buildings and kill people, but rather the kind confined to his trousers.
Yeah I saw that and I have to say I thought we were past the stage of human and scientific evolution in which we explained natural phenomenom with "the gods did it!" Guess not...
Yeah I saw that and I have to say I thought we were past the stage of human and scientific evolution in which we explained natural phenomenom with "the gods did it!" Guess not...
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Yeah I saw that and I have to say I thought we were past the stage of human and scientific evolution in which we explained natural phenomenom with "the gods did it!" Guess not...I wish. But we're not done with them yet.
This makes me almost understand the atheist point of view.
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I have a question quite possibly controversial. So why do christians want to prove homosexuality is a choice. I ama gay man and I can personnaly tell you it isn't a choice. Earlier on in my life I wished it was, I had a very hard time with my sexuality. But no matter how hard I tried it proved not to be a choice, even the American Psychological Assossiation says the same. Why is it so important to try and prove it is despite much evidence and testimony to the contrary.
P.S. If your curious part of the story of my sexuality and the ensuing struggle I had with it is posted earlier in this thread I think page 129, it`s a fairly large post by me.
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I have a question quite possibly controversial. So why do christians want to prove homosexuality is a choice. I ama gay man and I can personnaly tell you it isn't a choice. Earlier on in my life I wished it was, I had a very hard time with my sexuality. But no matter how hard I tried it proved not to be a choice, even the American Psychological Assossiation says the same. Why is it so important to try and prove it is despite much evidence and testimony to the contrary.
P.S. If your curious part of the story of my sexuality and the ensuing struggle I had with it is posted earlier in this thread I think page 129, it`s a fairly large post by me.
Unfortunatly I think it's because some people do not want to aknowledge that it's the way God made you. If they can believe it's a choice it makes it easier to justify, in their minds at least, the scorn or pity (depending on who you ask) the direct towards you. It's complete BS mind you, but that's what I see. I find it pretty sad that so many so called Christians can't seem to follow one of His most important edicts, Love thy Neighbor.
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Funny enough I`m a secret optimist, I like to think there are secret good intentions behind a persons actions. So thats why it puzzles me, I don`t like to remain ignorant about any subject, even if it disagrees with my worldview I actually look at it. So I kinda don`t get why someone would just condemn and not even try to look at the posibility of being wrong.
This makes me almost understand the atheist point of view.
But...
;)
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Funny enough I`m a secret optimist, I like to think there are secret good intentions behind a persons actions. So thats why it puzzles me, I don`t like to remain ignorant about any subject, even if it disagrees with my worldview I actually look at it. So I kinda don`t get why someone would just condemn and not even try to look at the posibility of being wrong.
I think you know from our talks that I agree. But as much as I hate to say it, I have almost lost hope in mankinds ability to keep an open mind. Too many people think that opposing view points are a direct threat to their own way of life. It's very evident in this and other volitile threads that too many people just can't handle differing viewpoints.
Opening one's mind to other possibilities requires humility. It also creates possibility for change. I think a lot of people are afraid of one or both of those prospects.
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Opening one's mind to other possibilities requires humility. It also creates possibility for change. I think a lot of people are afraid of one or both of those prospects.
Yup. Humility is almost a foriegn concept to us these days, and the fear of change has always been mankinds biggest shortcomming. Even though I have my own beliefs, I try to look at other peoples as being just as true for them, and so just as worthy of respect and consideration as my own. I am human though... or at least that's what my folks tell me. ;)
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the perspective of the video itself.Do you mean the video itself, or the perspective it criticized?On preaching to the converted.Very sad way to view things.Ok. How is it sad? It seems rather optimistic to me, presuming that people might have their minds changed and those who disagree with us are not just close-minded dicks.
But I'm a known weirdo. :)
Ok so I watched it again and ignored the initial subtext which I found, quiet .... anyway I have watched it a second time and can see why you like it.
If they can believe it's a choice it makes it easier to justify, in their minds at least, the scorn or pity (depending on who you ask) the direct towards you. It's complete BS mind you, but that's what I see.
It's the truth. It's vital to the homophobia lobby that they can portray our love lives as some kind of immoral hobby, like roasting babies or causing earthquakes. If we're just ordinary blokes like you, they're well and thoroughly screwed. This is why Fox News stopped sending remotes out to courthouses when same-sex marriage is legalized. It turns out that seeing a couple of decently-dressed middle class people kissing just ain't that outrageous. In fact, they look just like the people watching the TV:
I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases,
heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, do we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that.
I mean, if it's a choice then why should the law regard it differently than any other elective behavior? You know, like praying? We only have laws to protect the equal rights of people for what they ARE, not what the DO. Like praying. Or so I'm told.
Personally I'm still waiting for a moral justification of heterosexuality before I feel compelled to offer any for homosexuality. You guys could be in gay relationships and get gay-married just like the rest of us. Which is more or less what the fundies argue when they say it's a choice: We are secretly heterosexuals in pretend homosexual relationships. Well ok, come join the fun straight people! :)
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I have a question quite possibly controversial. So why do christians want to prove homosexuality is a choice. I am a gay man and I can personnaly tell you it isn't a choice. Earlier on in my life I wished it was, I had a very hard time with my sexuality. But no matter how hard I tried it proved not to be a choice, even the American Psychological Assossiation says the same. Why is it so important to try and prove it is despite much evidence and testimony to the contrary.
P.S. If your curious part of the story of my sexuality and the ensuing struggle I had with it is posted earlier in this thread I think page 129, it`s a fairly large post by me.
Not controversial, this is a needed question. It comes with two answers, neither of which you will like.
These are not my opinions, I feel it is much more complicated
Nature: You are born this way. Therefor it is a mental or physical ailment. You have something wrong with you. Some medication or treatment, can fix you now. Take it.
I live in Kansas and have in fact heard someone say this.
As I mentioned above I feel it is more complicated. The APA says we all have a spot on a 6 point scale for sexual leanings. I have a feeling and it is just, my opinion, that it is more complicated than this as well.
For their scale only gives the nature part of the equation. I feel from my own experiences with friends and relations it is also part nurture. Let me take a moment and see if I can explain this in my limited way.
If you come from a family that will talk to you and help you through a difficult time in your life and lets face it puberty is hard enough without having feelings other people take it upon themselves to tell you is wrong, you may move one way or the other upon that scale. Same with if you have a family/friends that are not supportive and, may also change where upon this scale you will fall.
I feel as a Catholic, it is my responsibility, to live my life as best I can as an example. Not to be holier then though and tell you how to live your life. Even when we have, as a Church, not always, been the best examples. I can however only control my own actions not others.
My question, which may be controversial as well: Are we having more 'gays' because of an new openness in our society, and as such people live less in the closet. Or do we have more 'gays' because of more openness causing a more willingness for people to try it. Girls gone wild videos ect??
And No Moorluck and Urizen I am not trying to bash upon your right to watch porn.
my question, which may also be contr
Crimson, I'd like to answer your question but I'm not sure how exactly to go about it. Can you tell me what you consider being gay to constitute?
Crimson, I'd like to answer your question but I'm not sure how exactly to go about it. Can you tell me what you consider being gay to constitute?I am just using the generic term gay to cover a large group that may or may not all consider themselves part of the same group GLBTQ ect...
I understood that you meant to include lesbians, bisexuals, and so forth. If it's helpful, let's talk about just gay males. What distinguishes a gay male from a straight male, to you?
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I understood that you meant to include lesbians, bisexuals, and so forth. If it's helpful, let's talk about just gay males. What distinguishes a gay male from a straight male, to you?Crimson, I'd like to answer your question but I'm not sure how exactly to go about it. Can you tell me what you consider being gay to constitute?I am just using the generic term gay to cover a large group that may or may not all consider themselves part of the same group GLBTQ ect...
If you need this one explained to you by now then I suggest that someoneelse is better left to explain it then I. Jeremy Mcgillan or maybe Steven Tindall.
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My question, which may be controversial as well: Are we having more 'gays' because of an new openness in our society, and as such people live less in the closet. Or do we have more 'gays' because of more openness causing a more willingness for people to try it. Girls gone wild videos ect??
IMO, it has alot to do with the fact that, nowadays, gay people are not going to be ostracized by the whole of society and/or beaten or killed (for the most part anyway). There have always and will always be gay people within a group of people; the fact that our society is more tolerant allows people to be less fearful about revealing their sexual orientation.
As to "your" nature argument...this same argument might as well be used for people with blond hair or green eyes...or wait, all of those other races that don't look like the person saying it. Part of what makes the world great is the diversity it contains; if you say one trait is an ailment that can and should be treated, then why not go so far as to say every trait should be viewed that way? I would hope a person would not say that because it is absurd. A homosexual person chooses to be gay as much as a black person chooses to be black...I would love to see someone tell a black person that there's simply something wrong with them and they need to get to work bleaching it away.
EDIT: And to be fair, I think the fact that homosexuality is commonly displayed in the country might have something to do with it, but not how you are presenting it. Putting it out there for people to see might allow someone who doesn't know what's going on in to have a light bulb moment where they say to themselves "so that's what those feelings are..."
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Unfortunatly I think it's because some people do not want to aknowledge that it's the way God made you. If they can believe it's a choice it makes it easier to justify, in their minds at least, the scorn or pity (depending on who you ask) the direct towards you. It's complete BS mind you, but that's what I see. I find it pretty sad that so many so called Christians can't seem to follow one of His most important edicts, Love thy Neighbor.I have a question quite possibly controversial. So why do christians want to prove homosexuality is a choice. I ama gay man and I can personnaly tell you it isn't a choice. Earlier on in my life I wished it was, I had a very hard time with my sexuality. But no matter how hard I tried it proved not to be a choice, even the American Psychological Assossiation says the same. Why is it so important to try and prove it is despite much evidence and testimony to the contrary.
P.S. If your curious part of the story of my sexuality and the ensuing struggle I had with it is posted earlier in this thread I think page 129, it`s a fairly large post by me.
Also, and this only refers to the extreme literalist end of Christianity (and other religions), if being homosexual is something you're born with it isn't 'unnatural' which is one of the favourite slurs used (even though animals the world over and across species engage in homosexual sex, including our closest relative the bonobo). Also, if this is the way God made you, then there are two choices: Either being gay is wrong, as few verses in the Bible say it is, in which case God made you wrong and is therefore either fallible or malicious (neither a happy prospect); or God made you gay which means he's ok with it and the Bible is wrong, which is almost worst. Therefore as it being natural would mean that something they believe cannot be wrong (either God or the Bible) is wrong, it can't be natural and so must be a perverse choice you're making deliberately to piss them off.
If you need this one explained to you by now then I suggest that someoneelse is better left to explain it then I. Jeremy Mcgillan or maybe Steven Tindall.
And the boards ate my post. Dammit.
I am a gay man, Crimson. I know very well what I think distinguishes a gay man from a straight man. Which was the subject of the lost post, dammit.
I'm asking you what you think the salient difference is, so as to better answer your question. But I had a big long post and the boards ate it so I'll do the short version.
Being a gay man is about experiencing sexual attraction exclusively or predominantly towards other men. They arouse me, at least if they are my type. I am no more attracted to every man than you are attracted to every woman. I first noticed these feelings when I was seven.
All the rest of it: declaring that I'm gay, actually having sex with a guy, conforming to various cultural stereotypes, is extra. None of it is necessarily connected to being gay, though some gays of course do have sex with one another. Some of them have sex with the other sex too, even to the point of getting married and having children. Lucky bastards. We come in skinny and fat, hairy and smooth, effeminate and hyper-masculine. Some of us are out and some in the closet. Some of us are even in the closet to ourselves. We will tell ourselves that "occasional" looking at a guy is normal. Everybody does it. Maybe we're not perfectly heterosexual, but who is? We will carefully ignore the fact that we pretty much never have sexual fantasies about women, presuming that we haven't found the right one or creating a convenient woman of fiction that for whatever reason we never see sexually either.
If those last sentences sound especially specific, it's because they're what I did for just a hair shy of a decade. I suppose when I discovered that one of my most gratifying fantasies was where I told my imagined beau that I was gay probably should have been a bigger clue than it was. But I lived all my life in a small town. We simply did not talk about these things. Such people did not exist.
EDIT: And to be fair, I think the fact that homosexuality is commonly displayed in the country might have something to do with it, but not how you are presenting it. Putting it out there for people to see might allow someone who doesn't know what's going on in to have a light bulb moment where they say to themselves "so that's what those feelings are..."
It happened to me. The first time anybody told me anything about homosexuality was when I stumbled on a discussion of it in a book which I bought for other reasons entirely. That was late 1998.
It's difficult to imagine having to find out from a book today, at least in this country. I think you'd have to be very sheltered and live under heavy censorship.
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Samnell, and I think this is the longest we have gone and remained civil to one another, my brother went through very simular circumstances. Of course he did the whole get married and pretend to be straight thing though. It wasn't untill our dad passed away that he came out, he said he was afraid Dad wouldn't have accepted him. As much as I'd like to think otherwise I'm afraid he's right. I've never understood why anyone would think it's a choice, why would anyone choose to go through that kind of b+~~*%@!.
Samnell, and I think this is the longest we have gone and remained civil to one another, my brother went through very simular circumstances. Of course he did the whole get married and pretend to be straight thing though. It wasn't untill our dad passed away that he came out, he said he was afraid Dad wouldn't have accepted him. As much as I'd like to think otherwise I'm afraid he's right. I've never understood why anyone would think it's a choice, why would anyone choose to go through that kind of b#&%~#*%.
The worst moment of my life was the quarter-second between my best friend accidentally outing me in an IM conversation and my father informing me that they still loved me. Quite literally dive for the knives awful.
I had no reason to even imagine I'd get anything worse than a surprised neutral reaction. I know I would not have survived a negative response.
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If you need this one explained to you by now then I suggest that someoneelse is better left to explain it then I. Jeremy Mcgillan or maybe Steven Tindall.I understood that you meant to include lesbians, bisexuals, and so forth. If it's helpful, let's talk about just gay males. What distinguishes a gay male from a straight male, to you?Crimson, I'd like to answer your question but I'm not sure how exactly to go about it. Can you tell me what you consider being gay to constitute?I am just using the generic term gay to cover a large group that may or may not all consider themselves part of the same group GLBTQ ect...
Thats a big can of worms your opening there. But research shows (varying nation to nation) but roughly 7-8% of the population identifies themself as some flavor of gay. However in the past few years more studies have been done and 16% of High School and College students identify as homosexual. But take in mind young people still have some brain development til the age of 21 before it seems to be permanent.
As for the difference between the differences between a straight male and a gay male, you talking physically, or socially mentaly. Both have a lot attached to them. (Just fyi I've gone to universities who have 4 year long courses on human sexuality). Either way it'll be 9 hours before I can respond because I'm off to work. But I'll try my best when I return.|
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Samnell, and I think this is the longest we have gone and remained civil to one another, my brother went through very simular circumstances. Of course he did the whole get married and pretend to be straight thing though. It wasn't untill our dad passed away that he came out, he said he was afraid Dad wouldn't have accepted him. As much as I'd like to think otherwise I'm afraid he's right. I've never understood why anyone would think it's a choice, why would anyone choose to go through that kind of b#&%~#*%.The worst moment of my life was the quarter-second between my best friend accidentally outing me in an IM conversation and my father informing me that they still loved me. Quite literally dive for the knives awful.
I had no reason to even imagine I'd get anything worse than a surprised neutral reaction. I know I would not have survived a negative response.
For what it's worth, it made me smile that your father didn't even hesitate to accept it. I know if one of my kids came to me and told me they were gay, I don't think it would matter. I'm not saying it wouldn't be somewhat awkward, that's a product of my upbringing that would be mine to deal with. I love my children, and wish for them more happiness in life than I ever had. If that happiness comes at the loving touch of of a man or a woman doesn't matter.
If you come from a family that will talk to you and help you through a difficult time in your life and lets face it puberty is hard enough without having feelings other people take it upon themselves to tell you is wrong, you may move one way or the other upon that scale. Same with if you have a family/friends that are not supportive and, may also change where upon this scale you will fall.
So all of those stories of homosexuals of non-supportive parents mean being non-supportive pushes people into homosexuality? Or are they all just lies?
Honestly, just ask yourself if you could just choose to be gay. Assuming you are a fairly straight male, the revulsion you feel is what homosexuals feel when they try to choose to be straight.
Why would anyone choose to essentially put themselves into second class citizenship...or worse?
Anti-homosexuality in the bible comes from Levitical law which Jesus was suppose to supersede and Saint Paul who told slaves they should know their place. If slavery needs to be put in context, doesn't Homosexuality?
Animals engage in homosexual behavior? Do they choose as well? Does that mean they have free will?
On preaching to the converted.
Nifty video! Thanks!
For what it's worth, it made me smile that your father didn't even hesitate to accept it. I know if one of my kids came to me and told me they were gay, I don't think it would matter. I'm not saying it wouldn't be somewhat awkward, that's a product of my upbringing that would be mine to deal with. I love my children, and wish for them more happiness in life than I ever had. If that happiness comes at the loving touch of of a man or a woman doesn't matter.
It was still awkward. Neither of them had given any thought to what being gay entailed. But the most important part was covered and I spent the next year or so handling the rest.
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If you need this one explained to you by now then I suggest that someoneelse is better left to explain it then I. Jeremy Mcgillan or maybe Steven Tindall.I understood that you meant to include lesbians, bisexuals, and so forth. If it's helpful, let's talk about just gay males. What distinguishes a gay male from a straight male, to you?Crimson, I'd like to answer your question but I'm not sure how exactly to go about it. Can you tell me what you consider being gay to constitute?I am just using the generic term gay to cover a large group that may or may not all consider themselves part of the same group GLBTQ ect...Thats a big can of worms your opening there. But research shows (varying nation to nation) but roughly 7-8% of the population identifies themself as some flavor of gay. However in the past few years more studies have been done and 16% of High School and College students identify as homosexual. But take in mind young people still have some brain development til the age of 21 before it seems to be permanent.
As for the difference between the differences between a straight male and a gay male, you talking physically, or socially mentaly. Both have a lot attached to them. (Just fyi I've gone to universities who have 4 year long courses on human sexuality). Either way it'll be 9 hours before I can respond because I'm off to work. But I'll try my best when I return.
Ok what differentiates a straight male from a straight male. Well homosexual male personalities vary a bit more, we go toward the super effeminate flamboyant to the not alpha male. Foe example my own personality is exetremely alpha male, sportsman, intellectual. Homosexual personalities are typically formed from either a super repression (my unfortunate background), an abusive background, or a super expressive background. Hence their personality formation seems to be derived from these 3 backgrounds most typically in todays standard.
Homosexual male society versus heterosexual male society. The current trend and preasures in the homosexual male society is to be loud, proud, and out. Also the major pressure is to look good, dress well, workout, look as best as you can. The current societal pressure among young gay men is to be stylish, and good looking. Currently the body image of homosexual males is nearly equivalent to straight women.Physical differences in homosexual males to heterosexual males. As far as we can tell homosexuals come in all shapes and sizes, with no real tendency toward one body type. Physically they are the same, except for possible brain chemistry differences. Their have been many studies on brain development and chemistry. To date homosexuals are more prone to clinical depression than their heterosexual counterparts and are generally more successful on suicide attempts then their straight counterparts. This is thought to be societal more than genetic. Also new studies into possible fetal development causing a different brain development possibly causing homosexuality. In laymens terms years ago a study found younger brothers are more likely to be homosexual. The theory was that a mother may have more estrogen in here system after having a first child therefore affecting the brain development of the younger male child in the womb. But much more study is needed for anything to be conclusive.
I hope I have answered a few questions.
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I also like this video on atheism.
Imagine If All Atheists Left America
Thank you this video and some of its outright lies make me giggle. I needed a laugh.
I also like this video on atheism.Imagine If All Atheists Left America
Thank you this video and some of its outright lies make me giggle. I needed a laugh.
It makes that quote that Patrick gave us on FB look to be true doesn't it CJ?
There's one mistake I spotted. So far as I know, Stephen Hawking is a deist and lives in the UK. Having never lived here, his leaving would not make much of a difference.
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I also like this video on atheism.
Wow. I remember back in the day when a "Party in Hell with all the dead guys" looked like a happenin' scene. I think it'd be worth all those losses if Chris Hitchens would leave.
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I also like this video on atheism.Imagine If All Atheists Left America
Thank you this video and some of its outright lies make me giggle. I needed a laugh.
There are less atheists in prison (0.21%)
Less atheist marriages failMost Scientists are atheists (this link also has some of the other data with relevant links to sources)
I fail to see how these are outright lies...
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I like the video, but some of is assumption, such as the teenage pregnancy rate, crime rate, abortion rate, wage decrease, and education decreases. I think their assuming that if these atheists left meaning most of the worlds top scientists and educaters, then possibly I could see a problem ahead for the american economy eventually..... crime rate not sure I see the connection, teenage pregnancy again, I don't see a correlation. But nonetheless mostly true per statistic. Yes atheists are less likely to divorce than christians, yes less than o.25% of the prison population is atheist, and yes less than 10% of the american academy of sciences even believe in a god. Your top scientists, intellectuals, and educaters are indeed atheist (well 90%). Sorry to say but it's true, in Britain only 7% of the royal academy of sciences are non atheist. And yes the majority of your nobel prize winners are indeed atheist. So by in large the video is true. Minus the assumptions near the end. And I certainly hope you wouldn't end up like the other non-atheistic countries listed at the end, however they're the present day precedent.
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I also like this video on atheism.Imagine If All Atheists Left America
Thank you this video and some of its outright lies make me giggle. I needed a laugh.
So where are the outright lies and prove your statement. Here's even a link to a study showing the correlation between religion and education level. INCLUDING PHD holders which means all your professors and most of your scientists. Here is the study by Professor Helmuth Nyborg on the general intelligence factor. The study is quite exhaustive showing a strong relation between atheism, intelligence, and higher education attainment.
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Studies comparing religious belief and I.Q.
In 2008, intelligence researcher Helmuth Nyborg examined whether IQ relates to denomination and income, using representative data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth, which includes intelligence tests on a representative selection of American youth, where they have also replied to questions about religious belief. His results, published in the scientific journal Intelligence demonstrated that on average, Atheists scored 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions. "I'm not saying that believing in God makes you dumber. My hypothesis is that people with a low intelligence are more easily drawn toward religions, which give answers that are certain, while people with a high intelligence are more skeptical," says the professor.
The relationship between countries' belief in a god and average Intelligence Quotient, measured by Lynn, Harvey & Nyborg.Nyborg also co-authored a study with Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at the University of Ulster, which compared religious belief and average national IQs in 137 countries. The study analysed the issue from several viewpoints. Firstly, using data from a U.S. study of 6,825 adolescents, the authors found that atheists scored 6 g-IQ points higher than those adhering to a religion.
Secondly, the authors investigated the link between religiosity and intelligence on a country level. Among the sample of 137 countries, only 23 (17%) had more than 20% of atheists, which constituted “virtually all the higher IQ countries.” The authors reported a correlation of 0.60 between atheism rates and level of intelligence, which is “highly statistically significant.” This portion of the study uses the same data set as Lynn's work IQ and the Wealth of Nations.
Commenting on the study in The Daily Telegraph, Lynn said "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God,"
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Now, would North Korea be considered an "atheist" country, or would that whole Kim Il Sung/Jung Il cult o' personality riff be their state religion?
I'm guessing they'd have to be considered virtually religious, due to the whole fact that their country is kinda a mess and all.
I believe your talking about dictator enforced religion or non-religion. I actually doubt most of those people are atheist in their beliefs in private, I tend to believe that and religious values they hold they hold in private away from the government. As for the dictators themselves I ten d to believe they are indeed atheist because they are to megalomaniacal than to think of a higher moral authority.
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I believe your talking about dictator enforced religion or non-religion. I actually doubt most of those people are atheist in their beliefs in private, I tend to believe that and religious values they hold they hold in private away from the government. As for the dictators themselves I ten d to believe they are indeed atheist because they are to megalomaniacal than to think of a higher moral authority.Now, would North Korea be considered an "atheist" country, or would that whole Kim Il Sung/Jung Il cult o' personality riff be their state religion?
I'm guessing they'd have to be considered virtually religious, due to the whole fact that their country is kinda a mess and all.
Great, so there's more to it than all that; more to it than what's inferred by the raw statistics.
So, essentially,
1) things are a little bit more complex than "religion=fail" or, conversely in this partickillar situation, "atheism=fail,"
and
2) atheism didn't necessarily save the day either.
I admit to a little bit of snarkiness here, I'm just kinda playing devil's advocate to the inferences I'm picking up from this partickillar proffered propaganda video.
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I believe your talking about dictator enforced religion or non-religion. I actually doubt most of those people are atheist in their beliefs in private, I tend to believe that and religious values they hold they hold in private away from the government. As for the dictators themselves I ten d to believe they are indeed atheist because they are to megalomaniacal than to think of a higher moral authority.Now, would North Korea be considered an "atheist" country, or would that whole Kim Il Sung/Jung Il cult o' personality riff be their state religion?
I'm guessing they'd have to be considered virtually religious, due to the whole fact that their country is kinda a mess and all.Great, so there's more to it than all that; more to it than what's inferred by the raw statistics.
So, essentially,
1) things are a little bit more complex than "religion=fail" or, conversely in this partickillar situation, "atheism=fail,"
and
2) atheism didn't necessarily save the day either.
I admit to a little bit of snarkiness here, I'm just kinda playing devil's advocate to the inferences I'm picking up from this partickillar proffered propaganda video.
To be honest dictator enforced anything isn't going to be a good representation of anything. The sole fact that it was enforced and didn't occur naturally is in itself making it flawed. So no I dislike your example for those basic reasons, you can't jump from statistics to evil dictator enforcing atheism. Basically find a better example of organic atheism causing problems, I can give many religious dictators causing problems but I won't. Lets face it a dictator is a dictator a psychotic controlling peoples beliefs because he fears being deposed. Sorry Heath need a better example. And the video you called profered propoganda is no worse than certain christian good living videos I've seen, hell it isn't even more offensive than most preaching I've heard so again back up your statement with good solid evidence.
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To be honest dictator enforced anything isn't going to be a good representation of anything. The sole fact that it was enforced and didn't occur naturally is in itself making it flawed. So no I dislike your example for those basic reasons, you can't jump from statistics to evil dictator enforcing atheism.
So, the statistics you proferred in a vacuum that don't really seem to provide anything but some implied causality between "religion and fail" are more reliable than the example I proferred. Gotcha.
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To be honest dictator enforced anything isn't going to be a good representation of anything. The sole fact that it was enforced and didn't occur naturally is in itself making it flawed. So no I dislike your example for those basic reasons, you can't jump from statistics to evil dictator enforcing atheism.So, the statistics you proferred in a vacuum that don't really seem to provide anything but some implied causality between "religion and fail" are more reliable than the example I proferred. Gotcha.
If you wish I could offer the actions of one Ruhollah Mousavi Khomeini as a a good representation of religion but I won't. Again a religious dictator has nothing to do with statistics on religion. Because I said before a dictator or dictatorship is not a good representation of anything. Just like I won't use the Ayatollah Khomeini as a representation of why religion is bad, then again using Kim Jong Il is not a good way to represent how atheism is bad. So I pose the question how is this video more offensive than one of those christian living videos and some of the fire and brimstone preaching?
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Dear God,
Hope you got the letter,
And I pray you can make it better down here.
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer,
But all the people that you made in your image,
See them starving on their feet,
'Cause they don't get enough to eat
From God,
I can't believe in you.
Dear God,
sorry to disturb you,
but I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears,
And all the people that you made in your image,
See them fighting in the street,
'Cause they can't make opinions meet,
About God,
I can't believe in you.
Did you make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind after we made you?
And the devil too!
Dear God,
Don't know if you noticed,
But your name is on a lot of quotes in this book.
Us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look,
And all the people that you made in your image,
Still believing that junk is true.
Well I know it ain't and so do you,
Dear God,
I can't believe in,
I don't believe in,
I won't believe in heaven and hell.
No saints, no sinners,
No Devil as well.
No pearly gates, no thorny crown.
You're always letting us humans down.
The wars you bring, the babes you drown.
Those lost at sea and never found,
And it's the same the whole world 'round.
The hurt I see helps to compound,
that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost,
Is just somebody's unholy hoax,
And if you're up there you'll perceive,
That my heart's here upon my sleeve.
If there's one thing I don't believe in...
It's you,
Dear God.
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And what I'm saying is using the countries you proferred, and the raw statistics utterly devoid of any other factor whatsoever, to infer that the U.S.A. is going down the road to failure due to it's high percentage of religious people is also bunk.
This is why propaganda is cheese wizz. Your propaganda, my propaganda, it's all intellectual cheese wizz.
I'm not trying to defend my counterpropaganda, it served it's use to illustrate absurdity. Deconstructing your argument and finding the true cause of fail for those countries could encompass volumes.
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And what I'm saying is using the countries you proferred, and the raw statistics utterly devoid of any other factor whatsoever, to infer that the U.S.A. is going down the road to failure due to it's high percentage of religious people is also bunk.
This is why propaganda is cheese wizz. Your propaganda, my propaganda, it's all intellectual cheese wizz.
I'm not trying to defend my counterpropaganda, it served it's use to illustrate absurdity. Deconstructing your argument and finding the true cause of fail for those countries could encompass volumes.
But it's not just the US. Canada is slightly higher at a 16% atheism rate, and Europe is a 25% atheism rate. So the stats aren't just for the US. But actually I'm getting happier with the path the US is heading down atheism has doubled in just the past 10 years. I guess it's just one of those videos that makes me feel better, kinda like a good church service for those christians out there.