
soulfire777 |
Hi,
Sorry for the noob question, but I'm confused:
The magazine version of these modules say it is for 4 PCs, but the hardcover book sais it is for a party of 6 PCs. As far as I can tell, the encounters in both versions are the same.
Can someone please clarify whether this adventure should ideally be run with 4 or 6 PCs?
Also, does the book version have all the downloadable enhancements, or will I need to download those?
Thanks in advance for your time,
--Anthony

Olaf the Stout |

It was orignally designed for 4 PC's but I think they found that it was a little on the difficult side for only 4 to handle so they recommended 6 in the hardcover. I would go with 6 if I were you since it is a bit of a meat grinder.
What exactly do you mean by downloadable enhancements?
Olaf the Stout

Jeremy Mac Donald |

If your nice to your players in the begining - say by having them start off with a wand of Cure Moderate Wounds it should work pretty well with only 4 PCs. They'll all be getting more XP and therefore will go up some levels. A few adventures in their a little higher level then what the module strictly calls for and they should be able to overcome some of teh challanges. Still probably not quite as good as 6 PCs but close enough that the AP should work fine.

soulfire777 |
Yea, a couple extra helpful magic items in the beginning or maybe a few extra points for their point buy characters perhaps?
My only concern is that the higher level characters you mentioned becomes a self correcting situation. When they do start an adventure at higher level, after 3rd level they start earning LESS experience for each encounter. Usually the self-correcting nature of 3rd edition experience is a good thing, but in this case it seems like it could work against you.
I don't know if I can get 6 reliable players, and also I find DMing more players is much more difficult for me (and less enjoyable because I struggle more to manage everything).
I'm thinking maybe I will just "fudge" a little more on behalf of the players than I usually do running this campaign. If the players get in trouble when they did not do something stupid, maybe a few monster hit rolls will quietly miss instead. If the party was weakened due to poor luck or circumstances that are not their "fault", maybe the difficulty of their next encounter will be mysteriously toned down a bit and/or the monsters might not use all their special tactics/abilities quite as efficiently, etc.
I frequently do this to some extent when I DM, but I always try to keep it to a bare minimum. I'm a believer that characters can and should die occasionally, especially if they do something kinda dumb - but the game just isn't all that fun for anybody if characters die TOO often.
Seeing all the death reports in that campaign death thread has me a bit concerned I must admit...I really don't want to run a "meat-grinder" campaign... =(

Jeremy Mac Donald |

A few extra points in their point buy is OK too but be conservative. A wand of Cure Moderate Wounds is a limited charge item. In giving it out your basically making it easier for your players to survive the first two adventures. After that we assume that their higher level compensates for they're lesser numbers. With more points in the point buy their simply more powerful from the begining to the end of the campaign and the extra power can be very significant when some of the players powers rely on these points.
Your correct about the DMG reducing their XP haul but that should more then be compensated for by the fact that they are dividng their XP up among only 4 characters instead of 6. Anyway the system tends to be self correcting and more so with 4 players then 6. If the challanges are really tough they'll gain levels, if the challanges are not tough enough they'll tend to slow down.

Marcos |

Soulfire777,
Another option to consider when only running with four players may be to look at using Action Points as found in the Unearthed Arcana supplement. I have found that they have allowed my players to survive encounters where one or two bad rolls would have resulted in a TPK. An Action Point’s ability to allow additional points to be applied to a critical save or to provide a temporary boost in a character’s effectiveness when needed most, have been a nice addition to my own Shackled City campaign. I highly recommend them.
Good Gaming,
Mark

soulfire777 |
Soulfire777,
Another option to consider when only running with four players may be to look at using Action Points as found in the Unearthed Arcana supplement. I have found that they have allowed my players to survive encounters where one or two bad rolls would have resulted in a TPK. An Action Point’s ability to allow additional points to be applied to a critical save or to provide a temporary boost in a character’s effectiveness when needed most, have been a nice addition to my own Shackled City campaign. I highly recommend them.
Good Gaming,
Mark
Never heard of action points before, but I'll check it out - thanks. =)

soulfire777 |
From the SRD: Action Points.
Wow, thanks. =) I went out and got Unearthed Arcana today (and a few other books with optional material beyond the scope of the core rules). It seems like this could be great for a really tough campaign like SC with only 4 PCs, but I'm not sure I'd want to use this in a "regular" campaign...it sort of seems like it might make the players a little TOO resilient?
This book seems like it has a lot of REALLY cool stuff in it (alternative rules) that sounds really fun. Thus far, I have mostly stuck to the core rules and just the extra material included in the forgotten realms campaign book (although there are a couple prestige classes in the latter I do not allow in my campaigns).
It kind of seems like the more optional material you include, the more difficult it might become to maintain balance in your campaign? While any given supplemental feat, optional rule, or prestige class might not be out of balance individually compared to the core material, I can see ways when they are combined with other optional material that they could create a synergistic advantage that WOULD make the characters significantly more powerful than what is possible using only the core rules.
Do any of you guys use significant amounts of supplemental material in your campaigns, and if so, how has this affected your campaigns overall?

Jeremy Mac Donald |

Do any of you guys use significant amounts of supplemental material in your campaigns, and if so, how has this affected your campaigns overall?
As you surmise adding more books increases the power level of the players fairly significantly. It becomes possible to stack abilities on top of abilities. So Whirlwind attack is pretty good and with a Spiked Chain it is very good. With a Half-Giant (Complete Psionic) using Moneky Grip (Complete Warrior) who has taken Pychic Warrior (Complete Psionic) and fights enlarged it is nearly insane doing 4d6+strength to everyone within 20' every round.

Marcos |

Soulfire777,
I am glad that you like the Unearthed Arcana supplement. :-)
Regarding your question about using supplemental material and the difficulty in maintaining balance, the simple answer is yes it does. The complicated answer is that sometimes the additional material can make a good game great or cause it to be destroyed. Ultimately, in my opinion, the use of supplemental material really depends on the DM and the players working together to create a fun and rewarding game.
In my own campaigns, I tend to have several supplements in play simply because my players and I enjoy having the options that the various books present. However, I am fortunate in that my players understand that as the DM I have the final say so on what ultimately gets included in the game. They also understand that they have a responsibility to be knowledgeable about their character capabilities from feats, class features, spells, or any special rules that may apply to those capabilities.
As far as my advice regarding adding in supplemental material into one’s game, just remember the following:
1) You do not need to be an expert on all of the supplemental material right away. Rather, strive to have a solid knowledge of the material that will allow you to make fair rulings or know where in the supplements to get additional information when needed.
2) Slowly add in supplemental material at a pace you as the DM are comfortable with. Take your time when evaluating new classes, feats, spells, and magic items. Just because the supplement hits the shelves on Monday doesn’t mean you need to have it in play by that following Saturday.
3) Along with number 2, know that you do not have to allow everything in a supplement just because you choose to allow some of it. However, be reasonable when your players come to you with their thoughts and ideas. The temptation may be to say no right away, but if your players are good about maybe trying the material with the understanding that it could be pulled back out, then maybe give it a try.
4) If you are going to make supplemental material available, make sure your players know what is and is not acceptable. In addition, encourage them to go above and beyond to work at knowing the supplemental material as it applies to any new rules that might be being introduced. If you all are on the same proverbial page, then time at the table can be better utilized and not spent on rules discussions.
5) Understand that including the supplemental material will undoubtedly increase your prep time depending on what all you choose to include. It will also most likely increase your effort behind the screen until the new material becomes routine for you and your group. You will have to decide if the gains are worth the investment in time.
For myself, I have always run games and been in games where multiple sources have been in play. Sometimes I admit that it can be overwhelming keeping up with everything. However, the rewards have made the occasional frustrations worth the effort. Ultimately, you and your group will need to decide what’s right for you. Just remember that the goal is to have fun and as long as that goal is realized, it doesn’t matter whether you play Core only, with every supplement published, or somewhere in between. :-)
Good Gaming,
Mark
PS: If you are uncertain about new material and have the time, try to use short adventures unrelated to your main campaign, where you and your group may try out the material you are considering with completely different characters. Dungeon of course is a great resource for this and don’t be afraid to try out the higher levels. After all, it may be months of play in the main game before the characters reach the lofty heights of high-level. :-)

Ully |

The gestalt class rules from Unearthed Arcana are excellent for a four-player situation in the SCAP. Gestalt characters take on the abilities of two classes simultaneously, so they take the highest hit die and skill points from the two classes and use best progression for saves. They also receive the abilities from both classes.
For example, A gestalt Fighter//Monk would get the Fighter's d10 hit die and the Monk's skill points and saves. She'd also get the Fighter's bonus skills and all the Monk's abilities, such as flurry of blows and fast movement.
There are some pretty powerful combinations, like Fighter//Psion for melee, Rogue//Warlock for social skills (charisma synergy) and any martial class mixed with a spellcasting class.
This is how I'd do it for a four-person group. It's lots of fun for the players, and the deadly nature of the Shackled City Adventure Path provides a good match for powerful characters.