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If an area is affected by the spell Entangle and then the same area is affected by the spell Stone Call, does the difficult terrain impose a double penalty for the difficult terrain that both of these spells create? (Normally, difficult terrain causes you to move at 1/2 speed...do the two spells stack to cause a 1/4 speed penalty?)
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No they don't, difficult terrain is a condition as such you apply the worst condition and since they're the same it merely makes the terrain difficult. The spells secondary effects if any may further hinder, but if saves are made it's just 2 squares to enter each square of difficult terrain.
--Vrockslide
As per Core p.193: If you occupy squares with different kinds of terrain, you can move only as fast as the most difficult terrain you
occupy will allow.
Hampered Movement
Difficult terrain, obstacles, and poor visibility can hamper movement (see Table: Hampered Movement for details). When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.
If more than one hampering condition applies, multiply all additional costs that apply. This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling.
In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don't have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it's not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can't take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)
You can't run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement.
emphasis mine
The penalty stacks; each 5' of this terrain would cost 20' of movement to get through. If a character doesn't have 20' of movement, he can move 5' as a full-round action.
Hampered Movement
Difficult terrain, obstacles, and poor visibility can hamper movement (see Table: Hampered Movement for details). When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.
If more than one hampering condition applies, multiply all additional costs that apply. This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling.
In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don't have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it's not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can't take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)
You can't run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement.
emphasis mine
The penalty stacks; each 5' of this terrain would cost 20' of movement to get through. If a character doesn't have 20' of movement, he can move 5' as a full-round action.
Nice work Steve, i thought this was the case, but could only find what i quoted. I sit corrected.
Ack! Rereading the rule I quoted, it doesn't appear that difficult terrain stacks with itself. It does stack with other conditions that hamper movement such as, poor visibility and obstacles.
This, of course, raises the question, "What the heck is an obstacle?" It's never defined. For example, if you want to move through a room with overturned chairs and things, difficult terrain, or obstacle? What if the chairs were chair shaped rocks? Chair-shaped bushes?
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No they don't, difficult terrain is a condition as such you apply the worst condition and since they're the same it merely makes the terrain difficult. The spells secondary effects if any may further hinder, but if saves are made it's just 2 squares to enter each square of difficult terrain.
I retract my answer in favor of this one.
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Ack! Rereading the rule I quoted, it doesn't appear that difficult terrain stacks with itself. It does stack with other conditions that hamper movement such as, poor visibility and obstacles.
This, of course, raises the question, "What the heck is an obstacle?" It's never defined. For example, if you want to move through a room with overturned chairs and things, difficult terrain, or obstacle? What if the chairs were chair shaped rocks? Chair-shaped bushes?
Obstacles should be whatever the GM decides is an obstacle. An overturned table functions as a low wall, a bunch of chairs broken to bits and piled in a square could be light rubble. Obstacles should definitely be able to stop charges, provide cover, etc. For example if the PC's hole up in a Taverns common room they could hide behind tables, stack furniture in front of doors and windows, put a couple bags of caltrops in key entry points. Then you drop an Ice Storm in the place and you'll have difficult terrain to boot.
--Mwk Vrock Picks
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Ack! Rereading the rule I quoted, it doesn't appear that difficult terrain stacks with itself. It does stack with other conditions that hamper movement such as, poor visibility and obstacles.
This, of course, raises the question, "What the heck is an obstacle?" It's never defined. For example, if you want to move through a room with overturned chairs and things, difficult terrain, or obstacle? What if the chairs were chair shaped rocks? Chair-shaped bushes?
Obstacles should be whatever the GM decides is an obstacle. An overturned table functions as a low wall, a bunch of chairs broken to bits and piled in a square could be light rubble. Obstacles should definitely be able to stop charges, provide cover, etc. For example if the PC's hole up in a Taverns common room they could hide behind tables, stack furniture in front of doors and windows, put a couple bags of caltrops in key entry points. Then you drop an Ice Storm in the place and you'll have difficult terrain to boot.
--Mwk Vrock Picks
Very good, everyone! That's another problem solved!
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Starting to second guess this again:
The only reason I'm questioning it still is the wording "This is a specific exception to the normal rule of doubling".
What does this mean exactly? To me, it implies that the hampered movement conditions stack (so, more than one "difficult terrrain condition" will apply another 2 square penalty).
Take bonuses for example....many bonuses (of the same type) don't stack. Is this an example of "the normal rule of doubling" in effect...the fact that they don't stack?
Ack! Rereading the rule I quoted, it doesn't appear that difficult terrain stacks with itself. It does stack with other conditions that hamper movement such as, poor visibility and obstacles.
This, of course, raises the question, "What the heck is an obstacle?" It's never defined. For example, if you want to move through a room with overturned chairs and things, difficult terrain, or obstacle? What if the chairs were chair shaped rocks? Chair-shaped bushes?
Obstacles should be whatever the GM decides is an obstacle. An overturned table functions as a low wall, a bunch of chairs broken to bits and piled in a square could be light rubble. Obstacles should definitely be able to stop charges, provide cover, etc. For example if the PC's hole up in a Taverns common room they could hide behind tables, stack furniture in front of doors and windows, put a couple bags of caltrops in key entry points. Then you drop an Ice Storm in the place and you'll have difficult terrain to boot.
--Mwk Vrock Picks
I was wondering more the difference between an obstacle and difficult terrain. Why are chairs obstacles and bushes difficult terrain?
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I was wondering more the difference between an obstacle and difficult terrain. Why are chairs obstacles and bushes difficult terrain?I would say that since the bushes provide some degree of cover, they would be an obstacle.
Actually bushes provide concealment not cover. Trees and fallen logs would be obstacles that provide cover, while patches of thicket would be light or heavy undergrowth.
Undergrowth: Vines, roots, and short bushes cover much of the ground in a forest. A space covered with light undergrowth costs 2 squares of movement to move into, and provides concealment. Undergrowth increases the DC of Acrobatics and Stealth checks by 2 because the leaves and branches get in the way. Heavy undergrowth costs 4 squares of movement to move into and provides concealment with a 30% miss chance (instead of the usual 20%). It increases the DC of Acrobatics checks by 5. Heavy undergrowth is easy to hide in, granting a +5 circumstance bonus on Stealth checks. Running and charging are impossible. Squares with undergrowth are often clustered together. Undergrowth and trees aren't mutually exclusive; it's common for a 5-foot square to have both a tree and undergrowth.
--Vrock Garden
Starting to second guess this again:
The only reason I'm questioning it still is the wording "This is a specific exception to the normal rule of doubling".
What does this mean exactly? To me, it implies that the hampered movement conditions stack (so, more than one "difficult terrrain condition" will apply another 2 square penalty).
Take bonuses for example....many bonuses (of the same type) don't stack. Is this an example of "the normal rule of doubling" in effect...the fact that they don't stack?
The exception is rather than adding the multipliers, you multiply them.
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The exception is rather than adding the multipliers, you multiply them.Starting to second guess this again:
The only reason I'm questioning it still is the wording "This is a specific exception to the normal rule of doubling".
What does this mean exactly? To me, it implies that the hampered movement conditions stack (so, more than one "difficult terrrain condition" will apply another 2 square penalty).
Take bonuses for example....many bonuses (of the same type) don't stack. Is this an example of "the normal rule of doubling" in effect...the fact that they don't stack?
\
Roger that, I understand that now. Thanks!
Here is more to add to the confusion:
As per Core p.193: If you occupy squares with different kinds of terrain, you can move only as fast as the most difficult terrain you
occupy will allow.
The word "squares" leads me to believe that this applies only to creatures that occupy more than one square. for example, a large creature occupying three squares of clear terrain and one square of difficult terrain will move as if hampered by difficult terrain. Now, if we take that same example and say that the same creature instead occupies three hexes of difficult terrain due to the entangle spell, and the last hex is affected by both the entangle spell and the stone call spell (both of which cause difficult terrain), is he suffering a x4 penalty?
(According to the above posts, the general consensus is that there is no such thing as a x4 penalty due to difficult terrain not "stacking", but I'm offering the above example as food for thought to possibly support the case that it does.)
Discuss! I wish we could get an offical ruling!!
The word 'squares' is used so that it applies equally to creatures regardless of how many squares they occupy.
In your example do you mean Spike Stones?
If so, then yes, the Entangle means it's difficult terrain (1/2 movement) which is then halved by the Spike Stones, resulting in 1/4 movement or x4.
Do we really need the dev's to make a ruling here?
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The word 'squares' is used so that it applies equally to creatures regardless of how many squares they occupy.
In your example do you mean Spike Stones?
If so, then yes, the Entangle means it's difficult terrain (1/2 movement) which is then halved by the Spike Stones, resulting in 1/4 movement or x4.
Do we really need the dev's to make a ruling here?
Dude, you just said that the word "squares" is used to define the penalty, then went on to explain using fractions. <boggle> I get your meaning though, so all is good....it's just added to the confusion...I think. ;-P
The other spell is Stone Call, not Spike Stones. After the AOE damage, Stone Call affects the area as "difficult terrain". The main question is very simple. Does difficult terrain stack? The rules (gasp) are not clear. In some cases it makes sense that it would...others?....not so much. Is it a balance issue? An official ruling would be nice!
Just checked the Spike Stones spell, and it states that anyone moving through the AOE moves at half speed. So, yes...your example is correct. However, this was not the question or the spell I used in the example.
Again, the question is simple. Does "difficult terrain" stack?
Dude, you just said that the word "squares" is used to define the penalty, then went on to explain using fractions. <boggle> I get your meaning though, so all is good....it's just added to the confusion...I think. ;-PThe word 'squares' is used so that it applies equally to creatures regardless of how many squares they occupy.
In your example do you mean Spike Stones?
If so, then yes, the Entangle means it's difficult terrain (1/2 movement) which is then halved by the Spike Stones, resulting in 1/4 movement or x4.
Do we really need the dev's to make a ruling here?
I think you misunderstood me there, i never said that the the amount of squares defines the penalty.
The other spell is Stone Call, not Spike Stones. After the AOE damage, Stone Call affects the area as "difficult terrain". The main question is very simple. Does difficult terrain stack? The rules (gasp) are not clear. In some cases it makes sense that it would...others?....not so much. Is it a balance issue? An official ruling would be nice!
Stone Call makes the area difficult terrain (x2 movement). So does Entangle.
As per Core p.194: If movement cost is doubled twice, then each square counts as 4 squares (or as 6 squares if moving diagonally). If movement cost is doubled three times, then each square counts as 8 squares (12 if diagonal) and so on. This is an exception to the general rule that two doublings are equivalent to a tripling.
So in this example, each square affected by both spells costs 4 squares to move through or 6 diagonally.
Again, the question is simple. Does "difficult terrain" stack?
Yes. The quote i bolded above implies it. This quote confirms it, Core p.170: If more than one hampering condition applies, multiply all additional costs that apply.